The War On Athiesm

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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What purpose would have the lives of those who will be resurrected once the God clears the Earth and makes it Heaven? What is the purpose of life in Heaven? Apparently, everyone has everything and doesn't need anything, so what they gonna do? Sleep the whole day?

Heaven is within you. The ressurection is about hope. Hope gives life. Why are you so certain you wont enter Heaven? No one knows what God has planned, no one knows the future of life. What we do know is that God is good, real good and his love is great and true. His grace has softened the hardest of hearts. Try not to underestimate the power of a love inspired hope. Im sorry you have met such bad examples of Jesus. Poor, humble, full of love for you. Merry Christmas, EVE!!

"We didn't start the fire"

[georgerussia 0]

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Heaven is within you. The resurrection is about hope. Hope gives life.

Maybe you think this answered by question, but it does not. It was not about hope or anything. It was about purpose of life.

The purpose you're saying the human life has is only relevant now, in current conditions. Same purpose makes no sense for Adam and Eve, and this means that according to bible, people were originally created without purpose for their perpetual life.

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Why are you so certain you wont enter Heaven?

Because there is no Heaven. Makes me certain I won't be there.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rhys 0]

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So technically you went from "I do not believe there is God and I behave like there is none" to "I do not know if there is God, but I behave exactly like there are none". Is it correct?

Not really, the way I see it, I wen't from "I don't beleive there is a God becasue this 'these quaint moral stories' are nice ' but go no way in expaining how we come to be.

I was about 14 years old at the time when I thought this to myself. So dismissed Christianity, but was inquisitive about the origins of life and peoples different beliefs.

For years I just wondered, but thought I must be athiest, I eventually wondered while I had google at my side and through a bit of reserch found a 'vague' description of my beliefs.

I also considered the use of Deist.

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deism
–noun
1. belief in the existence of a God on the evidence of reason and nature only, with rejection of supernatural revelation (distinguished from theism ).
2. belief in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it.

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n. The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.

I have underlined in italics what i agree with and have put in bold ehat I disagree with.

Who are we to say what is natural. We are simply 'working it out' ourselves, and making a description of what we know while being oblivious to what we don't.

I cannot dismiss what 'can be refered to' as 'supernatural' or 'out of the ordanary', as I am not at liberty to do so.

I consider 'any' religon that has human beings at it's 'centre' and 'focus' as instantly dismissed as credible.
These examples are mere examples of humans' instinctive greed and desire to empower one another and be greater than one another.

If you don't think I'm agnostic then what do you suppose I am?

'I' find it hard to fathom that there was ever a 'time' where 'absolutely nothing' 'existed', because 'previous' to that, there wouldn't have been have been 'anything' or 'anyone' to create our existence to begin with whether it was by or reaction or construction.

One thing is for sure, we should not be killing each other and disrepecting our environment. We need to understand our environment and respect the support it gives us, without which we would not have the 'ability to exist at all', thorugh a 'natural' reletiveley balanced distribution of taking and giving.

We need to move our 'focus' from selfishness to co-existence.

All humans have an element of compassion and also of selfishness, it is just the side we 'wish' to be in contact with most, that shapes who we are and what we do.

Propoganda and bullshit is rife, and we have to really all consider 'any' possibility because often what we are told is simply not true.

Sometimes a new discovery will Change your reason of belief, and many will be too scared or too apathetic, to 'go against the grain' and change thier ways. Most would rather just be accepted by their peers and live in relative harmony.

This is our nature, not our origin!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Andy9o8 0]

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how can you make such a comment?

I take it you disagree.

[rhys 0]

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Heaven is within you. The ressurection is about hope. Hope gives life. Why are you so certain you wont enter Heaven? No one knows what God has planned, no one knows the future of life. What we do know is that God is good, real good and his love is great and true....

...To those that are born in a more fortunate facet of society and a real CUNT to those that are not...

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[georgerussia 0]

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Not really, the way I see it, I wen't from "I don't beleive there is a God becasue this 'these quaint moral stories' are nice ' but go no way in expaining how we come to be, i was about 14 years old at the time when i thought this to myself. So dismissed Christianity, but was inquisitive about the origins of life and peoples different beliefs.

For the purpose of theism/atheism it is irrelevant WHY you do not believe or believe in God. Anyone who does not believe in a supernatural deity is atheist, and the reasons why they do not believe does not matter.

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If you don't think I'm agnostic then what do you suppose I am?

From all what you said it seems like you're theist. If you do not believe in a supernatural deity, you'd be atheist, but it seems like this is not your case.

Then the question is, do you change your behavior because of possible existence of a deity? For example, you can avoid premarital sex because there is a probability may be deity who will punish you for that, and in this case I'd say you're technically a theist. But if your behavior is not affected by possible deity existence, then you're technically atheist.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[hcsvader 1]

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Most athiest I've meet seem to carry a great deal of bitterness in their lives.

The war on Atheist is a war they themselves rage upon each other and those around them. Atheist/Humanist have great difficulty in finding fulfillment in their own reason and or relying on someone elses scientific mehtod to happiness.

Thats too bad you feel that way. Im pretty damn happy person. I get all the fulfillment I need in life everytime the bartender pours me a pint and my personal method to happiness is nothing more than boobies. Boobies and beer, life is good!!!

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[hcsvader 1]

There is no higher purpose to this life. Your only function as a living being to fuck another of your species and procreate, feed your offspring, protect them until they can survive on thier own and insure the survival of your species. once this is done you can go skydive.

So basically Eat, Fuck, Skydive! Life is simple. There is no need for god.

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[jakee 1,257]

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A murderer is on trial, he's guilty, but no one could find the evidence to convict him. Just because they couldnt find the truth, doesnt mean it wasn't there.

Right, this is a usage that makes sense to me, however:

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No, not really, the point is that life is designed in truth,

There, I'm back in the dark. I have absolutely no idea what that sentence means.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,257]

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Bullshit! Saying that is also saying that 'all' agnostics believe that the Universe has always been here and never had a beginning.

No sonny-boy, that's the opposite of what I'm saying. Read it again, and have a look at where I distinguish between 'fact' and 'possibility'.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rhys 0]

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From all what you said it seems like you're theist. If you do not believe in a supernatural deity, you'd be atheist, but it seems like this is not your case.
the⋅ism

Nah, I don't beleive you are even close!

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–noun
1. the belief in one God as the creator and ruler of the universe, without rejection of revelation (distinguished from deism ).
2. belief in the existence of a god or gods (opposed to atheism ).

I don't necessarily believe in a god or not, we are unable to fathom at this point what the origin of existence let alone life 'is'.

It is not a Guy with a cloak and big beard and a son name Jeevis, thats for sure. And he didn't etch the rules of life on stone, and he didn't make men out of dirt and women of the rib of a man.

I still think agnostic fits the bill but what you or i call it does not effect what i believe.

If anything is to change my actions it is learning that i was incorrect before. We should 'know' what is right and wrong, the 'compassion' energy that we get when we do wrong is a natuarl thing, elation from doing good is also natural. We need to more in touch with ourselves, then we can find balance.

Humans for the most part, are so entrapped in social structure and commitments that they have in many respects, lost touch with their own selves, let alone their surroundings.

I am glad tha i grew up in a place where relatively untouched wilderness was easily accessable, it allowed me to understand more about wher we came from, the cities, laws, and commitments that are imposed upon us that we call 'Life' are irrelevant in comarison to the real 'Life' that surrounds us, it is this that we have lost touch with and this that supports us, it is this the we need to repect and if educated enough all human beings should fathom the importance of doing so.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rynodigsmusic 0]

***...To those that are born in a more fortunate facet of society and a real CUNT to those that are not...

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Hmmm... that has not been my observation at all. In my observation it is the poor in the most humble environments that seem to posess the ability to hope in God, moreso, than they that have "everything."

Either way, reading some of your other posts, you tend to lean towards exactly what Jesus is saying. Love one another, but this concept does not work with those who dont recognize its importance as it relates to the earth, not the world we created on it.

Many of your posts suggest that nature is in harmony, and since we are nature, and not seperate of it, that we can be found to be in harmony with it as well. I believe the same thing. Amongst many other spiritual truths that are not always (im just gonna say never for me) experienced nor even heard in the churches. It seems your upbringing has had a dramatic affect on your belief in Jesus as the Christ, yet you sound like his voice in many ways. You want to save the world and Christ brought salvation to it.

Your sign off alone makes me see that you have a connection with truth. People have to find love in themselves, (not for themselves), first, they have to believe in its power first before they can even begin to overcome the love of power, which is much deceptive and underestimated than many of us give credit for.

"We didn't start the fire"

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[rynodigsmusic 0]

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In Reply To
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No, not really, the point is that life is designed in truth,

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There, I'm back in the dark. I have absolutely no idea what that sentence means.

No worries man... its Wisdoms work to enlighten. Nevertheless, there is an amazing group of randomly charged particles that unite in such a brilliant way, beyond human intelligence, that allows us to move, think, breath... live. You already know that I believe life is a miracle. If there is wisdom in miracles, and people dont believe in miracles, how could they even begin to understand that wisdom? Instead, most people only find wisdom in what they know, instead of in what they cant understand, but one should seek both places. NOt knowing is different than not believing.

"We didn't start the fire"

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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If you don't think I'm agnostic then what do you suppose I am?

Deist sounds about right. It seems you clearly believe in a god, just not the Judeo-Christian one. You seem to be unsure of the nature of your god, but so are most of the great Hebrew, Christian, Islamic etc. scholars throughout history. Only the fundamentalist fools think they have it all figured out.
Back when I considered myself agnostic I really wasn't sure whether there was anything there or not. Then I did the math and rounded the probability to the nearest significant figure.
P(supernatural creator)=0.
It does not mean I have reached a religious style belief in not God; It merely means I have come to a conclusion based upon the available evidence. If more evidence becomes available I will reconsider.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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You seem to be unsure of the nature of your god, but so are most of the great Hebrew, Christian, Islamic etc. scholars throughout history. Only the fundamentalist fools think they have it all figured out.

I beieive that God is invisible, spirit, light, and power. Does make me a fundamentalist? Just out of curiousity?

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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There is no higher purpose to this life. Your only function as a living being to fuck another of your species and procreate, feed your offspring, protect them until they can survive on thier own and insure the survival of your species. once this is done you can go skydive.

So basically Eat, Fuck, Skydive! Life is simple. There is no need for god.

You may feel differently someday. The soul is a very deep thing. It becomes increasingly difficult to satisfy it with objects of the flesh. Eat, fuck, skydive all you want, but at least stay open to the deeper desires of the soul as they begin to hunger more and more.

"We didn't start the fire"

[redlegphi 0]

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You seem to be unsure of the nature of your god, but so are most of the great Hebrew, Christian, Islamic etc. scholars throughout history. Only the fundamentalist fools think they have it all figured out.

I beieive that God is invisible, spirit, light, and power. Does make me a fundamentalist? Just out of curiousity?

Just out of curiosity, does your invisible light god exist on the IR or UV end of the spectrum?

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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I beieive that God is invisible, spirit, light, and power. Does make me a fundamentalist? Just out of curiousity?

Not sure. Do you believe every word of the bible is the literal truth? If so then no more inquisition nor interpretation is necessary, you are a fundamentalist. If not then no you are not.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Just out of curiosity, does your invisible light god exist on the IR or UV end of the spectrum?

Light is relative as it relates to our inner being. If you dont understand, you dont understand.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Not sure. Do you believe every word of the bible is the literal truth?

I believe the truth is in the heart of the words and the greatest revelations are in the stories, so I guess im not a fundamentalist.

"We didn't start the fire"

[frequentfaller 0]

response to post#30. took a long time to read through religious blather.


lets see if i can help..

1. science doesnt work the way you describe. In science everything evolves, with time. science is an ongoing process of proving theroies. evrything is questioned. In science evidence against a theroy is welcomed. it means we have learned something.

2.human purpose, same as all life purpose - procreate. realtionship with god and spreading your message? - believe what you want, just keep it out of govt and schools.

3.no one know what was before big bang. lots of theroies, but we havent the ability to investigate very far into any of the theroies yet. your "bubble" isnt perfect or designed. It wasn't magically created. it took about 4 billion years to evolve into what it is today. you are right einstein didnt make anything true, he just figured out how to prove some theroies.

4.beauty is in the eye of the beholder. beauty comes from emotion, which comes from larger brain. although, my dog seems happy when i come home and sad when i leave.even smaller brains seem to have emotions. wisdom is truth? its wise to know things that are true. again we have purpose, procreate. we care about truth + or - yes or no. helps us define the world, learn more, teach others. educate people.

5.we are animals. we die. souls, spririts, ghosts - dont know never seen any proof, except bad tv shows about hauntings.I think it would be much easier to beleve in life after death. easier on the mind, thinking one day i will not exist, is unimaginable. bla bla christ bla bla bla. no comment on religious crap.

6. i understand the message. i just dont believe in gods or spirits. i dont mock it, its just not needed anymore. like believeing in santa when you are a kid, you come to an age when you dont need it anymore. thats the nicest way i can think to put it.

7. paragraph 7 makes no sense.

8.there are a number of theories about be fore big bang, but totally un provable. no one in our lifetime will ever know.

9.jesus - not sure if was even a real person. son of god in one religion, important prophet in another religion. i think the jews just threw him out of their religion.

10.i understand religion, i just dont believe in it, or follow it.

11. why do you try to brand people that dont believe what you believe? i would believe anything, if shown proof. please not the usual yammering of "open your spirit and listen for the truth" or "his eternal grace will show you the light you seek". i have heard it. show me simple, tangiable proof.

Born ok 1st time.

[billvon 2,427]

>Not only that, atheiest beleive that life/we has/have absolutley no purpose in
>this universe . . .

I don't think that's any more true than claiming that christians think everyone else is going to hell.

> Then on top of that, one of their greatest arguments against believers is that
> we are the ones “cramming our faith down thier throats”, when they seem to be
> guilty of the same thing.

Again, while I think that both atheists and christans do that to some degree. the vast majority of both do not.

>Many atheist belive that before our existance of time and space, there was
>nothing, or another existance, dimension, whatever. Then snap. A gigantic
>explosion occurs for no reason, out of nothing and fashions itself like a bubble in
>the universe . . . .

Many scientists (both atheist _and_ christian) think that that gigantic explosion did happen, and had an explicable cause.

>Now, life just randomly after billions and billions of years (which no man alive
> would even have a grasp of how old that is) just magically indwells this
>bubble in a way that couldnt be more perfectly designed to sustain life.

That's because you live in this environment. From a more objective perspective, we live on a planet where most of the surface is uninhabitable, and where the atmosphere contains a dangerous corrosive toxin (oxygen) that degrades almost all biological materials and causes destructive fires. The planet is unstable and constantly unleashes deadly volcanoes, storms, tsunamis and earthquakes. Lighting comes out of the sky unpredictably and kills people. There are dozens of animals that can kill us and tens of thousands of diseases that can kill us. The sun emits radiation that can sicken you in a few hours and kill you (via skin cancer) with a long enough exposure. The gravity is strong enough to damage your joints after a few decades, injure you if you fall, and make it impossible for older people to even walk.

This is a planet perfectly designed to sustain life?

It would be more accurate to say that we're pretty well evolved to live in a fairly hostile environment.

>To me, to think that the universe or life does not have wisdom, (wisdom to
>adapt, to evolve, to know and identify truth,) doesnt make any sense.

Well, only with wisdom can we decide whether or not things make sense to begin with!

>Wisdom is not einsteins theory of relativity, or E=MC2, Those things arent
>true because einstein made them true . . . .

Of course; they have always existed. A wise man understands how they work.

>On top of that there is the issue of beauty, a magestic scene makes us feel
>a strong and good connection. Why, would a life that has no purpose connect
>with the nature of the earth so well (perhaps because we belong to it, just as
>the earth belongs to the universe?)? What is that feeling of goodness and
>why would it be relevant to a life that has no purpose?

?? A feeling of "goodness" is a way of describing something that makes us feel good. Many of those come from our underlying evolved drives. We are attracted to physical beauty (in plants, animals and other people) and repelled by disease and decay, because from an evolutionary standpoint, the guy who plays with dead bodies, eats decaying meat and likes rotten tomatoes is going to die pretty quickly.

That's not to say those drives are meaningless, or "only because of evolution." We have used those basic drives and built on them, made them uniquely our own. Sure, we think that a green field is beautiful for some pretty basic reasons (i.e. it represents food) - but we also think that Chihuly's work is beautiful, and it's not because we think his sculptures look like cucumbers.

>In fact, why would we feel anything?

Because feelings help us survive, prosper and reproduce.

>Ever notice how wisdom is truth? Again, why would a being with no purpose
>even care about truth? Unless maybe, just maybe there is some wisdom in
>the life we share in.

Of course there is. Some express that through religion. Some through a more atheistic route which might include charity or education. Some might do it by dedicating their life to a religious order, or to science, or to study of history. Good for them.

Some might decide that the way to do this is through racism, violence or genocide. I disagree with that, and I think that those people are missing the point - but it is valid to them.

>Those who share in the mockery are mockers themselves, like ignorant
>sheep mocking what they dont understand and claiming all along they are the
>ones with free thought and confronting everyone who challenges them to think
>a little deeper than just what meets the eyes.

I agree there. Mockery doesn't get you anywhere. I also agree that those people should look more deeply into what they believe - and that that goes for atheists and religious alike.

>So I back out, trhough the atmosphere and into the peaceful power of space . . .


Space is a pretty violent and inhospitable place, so I don't think I see that analogy.

>Why? Why would insignificant, random beings be concerned at all with truth
>and goodness? Coincidentally enough, both truth and goodness have ushered
>some of the greatest innovations and revelations of comfort since the
>beginning.

I think you may have answered your own question. We've seen what happens when organizations (governments, churches) oppose learning the truth about the world we live in. Often we call these times the Dark Ages. We've also seen what can happen when people look for truth and discard superstition; the Renaissance was one such time.

>So, first, was nothing, then life, then nothing again and to be ever again...
>even though science has "proven" that something actually did come from
>nothing . . . .

I have never seen such a proof, nor do I think most scientists think "something came from nothing."

>As far as the Symbolysm and Literalness, the bible is a complilation of
>stories, fiction to some, non-fiction to others. It doesnt matter what words
>get put where or how there are used, or whether you see the stories on a
>cartoon or the discovery channel... what matters are the lessons you learn
>from the stories.. the lessons taught me what is real in my life.

Definitely agreed there. We waste far too much time arguing over the literal correctness of something that's not intended to be literally correct.

>Many of you dont believe the story, thats fine, but it doesnt mean you cant
>get the lessons at least, and find value in them. I wonder what someone from
>another planet would write about in just one visit to our world? Im sure there
>would be many things not immediately understood, and many things that
>seem quite unbeivable as well.

Agreed. But if he came to the earth during the 1100's, he might conclude that Christianity was synonymous with war, and that the atheists might be a better group to contact. If he came to the earth today, he might think that Islam was a religion of war.

>If more of us went into Jesus' world, the world would be a better place.

Well, I'd amend that to "if more of us went into your version of Jesus' world, the world would be a better place." But that's because of how you interpret his word; it is your interpretation (and how you translate them into acts) that makes the world a better place.

>Im sorry if you dont agree. But no one has addressed any of this guys'
>questions..

Well, they're all rhetorical; I don't think they're meant to be answered.

>all Ive heard is he is brilliant, mostly because he speaks what most of you
>have found yourself believing without doubt.

I don't think he's brilliant or particularly insightful. He's just moderately funny, and reminds me of what many people go through in college concerning their doubts about religion.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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1. science doesnt work the way you describe. In science everything evolves, with time. science is an ongoing process of proving theroies. evrything is questioned. In science evidence against a theroy is welcomed. it means we have learned something.

Science may be evolving, but the truth is not. Learning, however, that is evolving, both in the scientific fields and in the spiritual fields. But you will say that the spiritual fields are baseless, why couldnt we say the same thing about the scientific fields? All Im saying is that if one knows all the science in the world, but does not have love in his heart, perhaps he didnt learn as much as he thought he did? Given the unexplainable phenomenon in the universe, it doesnt makes sense, to me, to bet all my money on mans knowledge of his surroundings alone, but also to at least explore the deeper connections of life (as they relate to that specific individual)

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2.human purpose, same as all life purpose - procreate. realtionship with god and spreading your message? - believe what you want, just keep it out of govt and schools.

Okay, so you do believe life has purpose, at least we have some common ground. Why is it okay to study all philosophys in school, but not the philosophy Jesus? This seems more like a political thing to me. Learning is about deciding for yourself what is right, best and true... I think everything should be at least examined. But, if it does bother you that much, I understand, I just dont see the detriment in studying lessons in morality. And again, its not my message, its a message I believe in. And dont worry so much, the schools are already starting to force God out... many things for that matter... your actually getting what you want and arguing that your not.

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3.no one know what was before big bang. lots of theroies, but we havent the ability to investigate very far into any of the theroies yet. your "bubble" isnt perfect or designed. It wasn't magically created. it took about 4 billion years to evolve into what it is today.

Im not arguing the evolution of the earth, or how God created things, im saying that the earth is good, and seems to know whats best for its sustainment. I am however arguing that it is perfectly designed to sustain life, whether you accept it is from an unimaginably creative force of wisdom or not. Not only that, that life is much more than just being alive. Its the feeling of being alive as well, and yes, thats a good feeling. Whether or not you believe in something beyond you, emotions, desires, hopes, and dreams are still apart of our makeup. The greatest and seemingly most sought after are life to the fullest, and Love. If you have love you are full of life, but there is no "proof" of that for you to lay on a table and examine.

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wisdom is truth? its wise to know things that are true.

To know things that are true means you are knowledgeable, it doesnt mean you are wise, unless your saying that knowledge is wisdom?

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we are animals. we die

We are animals, but we seem to be one of the more intelligent and reasonable ones, some may argue. There is something about us that separates us from animals and I dont believe it is death. Some also may argue that we're already dead and that death is the beginning of life. Look at before you came into being, you were dead, then were alive, then go back to dead, never to be alive again? How do you know that? You would have a greater agrument against me if you said that life will die, because contrary to popular belief, you dont belong to yourself, you belong to life, and whatever purpose it has for you will be satisfied with or without your knowledge of it.

So, in time, life will become non-existant from the universe... this is the best side of your argument in this discussion.

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6. i understand the message. i just dont believe in gods or spirits. i dont mock it, its just not needed anymore. like believeing in santa when you are a kid, you come to an age when you dont need it anymore. thats the nicest way i can think to put it.

Im glad your not a mocker, it means your still open to understanding the more "inferior minds" of any believer. As humans, we tend to only need things when we really need them. I respect and understand your comment on not needing God, I just hope that if you ever did, you would at least look where you may least expect to.

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8.there are a number of theories about be fore big bang, but totally un provable. no one in our lifetime will ever know

Maybe our purpose is not to know but to understand that we really dont know anything. From that, we might find a deeper understanding that surpasses knowledge.

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9.jesus - not sure if was even a real person. son of god in one religion, important prophet in another religion. i think the jews just threw him out of their religion

Definitly had an impact in those views though huh? Whether he was real or not, his influence is sealed in the earth. If you think many have believed in Jesus because they knew he was real, then you may be missing the point. It is the message that people believe in. Pretty influencial message for a guy who never lived if you ask me.

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10.i understand religion, i just dont believe in it, or follow it

Everyone follows some sort of religion, sorry. Everyone believes in something. You just dont believe the Gospel, as far as I can tell. And I will assume you have read at least one of them, since there really is no way for me to know for sure if you have or havent. If you dont believe in anything, or follow anything, then you are closer to a Nialist (and I know thats not how you spell it!)

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11. why do you try to brand people that dont believe what you believe?

Sorry man, I think we all do this dont we? I havent branded anyone here as far as I know. I have branded a belief system, just as you have me for the sake of discussion. I can only respond to people with the information they give me, I didnt mean to fire you up or antagonize you. My intent is to share, please dont take it as attack. I dont think Jesus came attacking everyone, he merely testified to what he knew, but im not Jesus, just a humble and grateful follower, a sheep.

Ill have to go back and re-read "para 7"

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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I don't think that's any more true than claiming that christians think everyone else is going to hell

From what I have heard from many atheists is that life has no purpose. From what many have heard from Christians is that everyone who doesnt believe is going to hell. Either way, if life has purpose then it seems reasonable to believe it has wisdom as well.

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and had an explicable cause.

Explain please.

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It would be more accurate to say that we're pretty well evolved to live in a fairly hostile environment.

You've made a good point, surely you dont think I didnt know that? But, I dont see it as "we're" evolved, but life in us. So you and I see things differently in this regard. As the earth destroys, it creates, as it creates, it destroys and continues to create. The hostilities should be more a testement to the adaptable wisdom of life, rather than an example of why you think the earth does not sustain life. In any event, death is a necessary part of life.

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Of course; they have always existed. A wise man understands how they work

See, I dont believe that. A knowledgeable man understands how, the wise man uses that understanding as wisdom intended.

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?? A feeling of "goodness" is a way of describing something that makes us feel good. Many of those come from our underlying evolved drives. We are attracted to physical beauty (in plants, animals and other people) and repelled by disease and decay, because from an evolutionary standpoint, the guy who plays with dead bodies, eats decaying meat and likes rotten tomatoes is going to die pretty quickly.

That's not to say those drives are meaningless, or "only because of evolution." We have used those basic drives and built on them, made them uniquely our own. Sure, we think that a green field is beautiful for some pretty basic reasons (i.e. it represents food) - but we also think that Chihuly's work is beautiful, and it's not because we think his sculptures look like cucumbers.

Evolutionary or not, beauty has been around from the beginning. Its one of the greatest revelations of God. If you can see it, food or not, just give thanks because you know that it is possible that nature sees beauty in us as well.

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Because feelings help us survive, prosper and reproduce

There it is. Creatures of instinct, and thats it. Not creatures with the ability to commune with God in a deep and inexpressible way? Its funny to me how many believe we have only evolved instinctively and not spiritually, even though survival can be quite a spiritual experience.

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Of course there is. Some express that through religion. Some through a more atheistic route which might include charity or education. Some might do it by dedicating their life to a religious order, or to science, or to study of history. Good for them.
Some might decide that the way to do this is through racism, violence or genocide. I disagree with that, and I think that those people are missing the point - but it is valid to them.

Agreed.

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Space is a pretty violent and inhospitable place, so I don't think I see that analogy.

Not everything is meant to be understood. If you say the earth is quite violent and inhospitable, yet still find beauty and peace there, then the universe can be the same way. There is peace through the violence... not in an extremely literal way, but as you stated above... the violence has its role.

Is your point becoming that both the universe and the earth are un-fit for peaceful existance? There was something extremely violent and peaceful in the death of Christ as well.

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>all Ive heard is he is brilliant, mostly because he speaks what most of you
>have found yourself believing without doubt.

I don't think he's brilliant or particularly insightful. He's just moderately funny, and reminds me of what many people go through in college concerning their doubts about religion

Yeah, he was pretty funny.

"We didn't start the fire"

[georgerussia 0]

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Nah, I don't beleive you are even close!
2. belief in the existence of a god or gods (opposed to atheism ).


I don't necessarily believe in a god or not, we are unable to fathom at this point what the origin of existence let alone life 'is'.

But you said it yourself that you agree with the part of deism which says "belief in the existence of a God on the evidence of reason and nature only". So you do believe in the existence of some god (or gods), and this makes you (2) theist.

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It is not a Guy with a cloak and big beard and a son name Jeevis, thats for sure. And he didn't etch the rules of life on stone, and he didn't make men out of dirt and women of the rib of a man.

A theist can be just someone who believes in a god (or gods). This does not mean Christian or Jewish god; may be as well abstract superforce which initially created the Universe and then forgot about it. It doesn't matter yet if you think this god set some rules or not or whether there is a reward after death, you can be theist even if you do not believe in the life after death.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

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