skinnay 0
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rhys 0
QuoteQuoteAthiests are usually athiests because they do not believe compiled garbage rather than being sure or definative about the origins of life.
Nope. Atheism is "absence of belief in the existence of deities". It is irrelevant to the origins of life.
I will correct you, i used to claim to be an athiest, due to my upbringing. My mother is christian(kind of), and my father is 'non Christian'. I went to a christian high school and attended bible studies and religious studies and Chapel numerous times each week. i also gained a general excellence award during the time as Icould 'understand' what we were being taught but didn't necesserily believe what was being said.
The more shit that was fed to me the less I believed, I was told that athiests were people that do not believe in GOD, so i signed up (figuratively speaking).
It was some years later as I dismossed religon altogether, that i discovered the possibility of being Agnostic, it made much more sence than being athiest as I relly 'love' nature and find it an essential part of what we are and how we came to be.
Existence, including the entire universe, be it whole or growing exponentially, is something 'NONE' of us can fathom, 'EVER' so being agnostic makes more sense than any other religon, or all of them put together.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix
jakee 1,257
QuoteEverything that science proves is already proven, all they do is find what was already true, call it a proven fact, and move to find more things that are already true.
Well, yeah. Better than finding things that aren't true and calling it fact.
QuoteNow, life just randomly after billions and billions of years (which no man alive would even have a grasp of how old that is) just magically indwells this bubble in a way that couldnt be more perfectly designed to sustain life.
What? The way that life inhabits the universe is perfectly designed to sustain life?
QuoteTo me, to think that the universe or life does not have wisdom, (wisdom to adapt, to evolve, to know and identify truth,) doesnt make any sense. Wisdom is not einsteins theory of relativity, or E=MC2, Those things arent true because einstein made them true, wisdom makes them true, and einstein found that wisdom.
What on earth is your definition of wisdom? You seem to be using a lot of words in ways that no-one else uses them.
Quotebut you get my point I hope.
No!
I have never, ever been further from understanding what a fellow english speaking person means. I have better luck understanding a google translation. QuoteOn top of that there is the issue of beauty, a magestic scene makes us feel a strong and good connection. Why, would a life that has no purpose connect with the nature of the earth so well (perhaps because we belong to it, just as the earth belongs to the universe?)? What is that feeling of goodness and why would it be relevant to a life that has no purpose? In fact, why would we feel anything?
Aside from the fact that you've answered your own question, have you ever noticed that most feelings are ones which are kinda useful to staying alive?
QuoteEver notice how wisdom is truth?
No. But then, as I said, I have absolutely no idea what you mean when you say 'wisdom'.
QuoteThen there is the issue of eternal death. Most atheist believe that once your dead, your eternally dead, never to find, or be brought into another existance ect... Im sure Life may have something different to say. Why is it so easy to believe in eternal death, but not eternal life, if both of them exist in eternity?
Life might have something different to say? Why? How? hat do you mean when you say 'Life'? Is it some kind of being? Eternal death is easy to believe in because we are organic beings, and we can see how that organic structure decays and is lost when we die. Gone, never to return.
QuoteWhy was the greatest man to walk the earth (in the eyes of Christianity) teaching lessons in humbleness, humility, freedom, hope, faith, peace, and love, especially in a time and place where he absolutely knew for certain he would be horribly executed for preaching those things?
Why does anyone voluntarily take action they know might lead to their death?
QuoteWhen wisdoms peace (that I believe comes from eternal grace) becomes one with the peace of its creation, there naturally would be some sort of universal change.
What do any of these phrases mean?
Are you able to tone down the lyricism* and write in plain english, and not use words to mean something completely different to what everyone else thinks they mean? It would help a lot.
* I'm being charitable!
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
jakee 1,257
QuoteThere is some sort of 'majic' to life, agnostics do not dismiss the fact that life was created for and by something other than human beings/in a human form.
Well, someone who believes it is a fact that life was created for/by something would not be an agnostic in this sense. They would be a believer who doesn't know what they believe.
Someone who thought it was a possibility that life was created for/by something would be a true agnostic in this sense.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
QuoteHumans are selfish pig headed idiots at the best of times. Especially Christians.
Anybody that claims they are a Christian is essentially telling us all they are a gullable idiot!
Same goes for many other religons.
We are not the centre of the universe, and we will not be here for eternity as we have not 'been'.
Pretty simple stuff to get your head around and sensible.
christians? fucking idiots!
Now who sounds like a gullible and selfish pig headed idiot. You know, I thought for sure you might have a stronger heart based on many of your previous posts, but you clearly have very little understanding toward anyone who doesnt believe the way you do. To speak with someone so vulgar and foul is a fruitless waste of time. I am however, glad you have everything all figured out. Now, sense we know where you stand, and youve offered little to nothing new, how about you refrain from posting on this subject until you can find the fault in yourself you speak so openly against others with?
So, just assume that Christians hate the earth, and are responsible for the extinction of the dinosaurs or whatever extinct creature your speaking of... wow, talk about naivety. That Christians, not the selfishness of Pride are responsible soley for the problems of the world. Even though, the Gospel speaks a great deal of selflessness... not really understanding that one?
Oh, and Im really sure that the atomic bomb was developed by Christians for the sake of spreading their message of money, power, and greed.. sarcasm intended. If I was without restraint, I would personally tell you what I really thought of your completely ridiculous, and extremely elementary view on the "magic" of life. You are filled with bitterness and ignorance. The complete lack of regard for anyone elses faith is further testimony to the shallowness in your own heart.
Sorry, but there is a truth as far as which way is the right way to go to ensure a better, more fulfilling life for both us and the future generations. Know this though, I did not form the society that threatens what you want... I am a product of the same society, and what I follow is a revolutionary way of thought that keeps the corrupt and empty way of that pre-established society far from influencing my heart.
Quotethis selfishness is responsable for most of the worlds problems, may well be quite naural, but is not very intellegent at all.
Are you speaking of the selfishness your presenting right now, or that of somone like mother theresa? But, Im seeing more and more that what Rhys says, goes... you must be the truth, especially with such sensativity toward everyone.
"We didn't start the fire"
jclalor 12
QuoteIn Reply To
Everything that science proves is already proven, all they do is find what was already true, call it a proven fact, and move to find more things that are already true.
Well, yeah. Better than finding things that aren't true and calling it fact.
Your missing the point.
QuoteWhat? The way that life inhabits the universe is perfectly designed to sustain life?
I swear, I think your just an argumentative person who doesnt read anything... your beginning to lose my interest.
QuoteWhat on earth is your definition of wisdom? You seem to be using a lot of words in ways that no-one else uses them
Wisdom is truth, or does that not make any sense to you?
QuoteAside from the fact that you've answered your own question, have you ever noticed that most feelings are ones which are kinda useful to staying alive?
staying alive, yes, as I wrote in my earlier post, but also comfort, as I also wrote in that post. So your focus is on survival, as was mine, instincts as well, all of them, but, humans have something that goes beyond instinct, even beyond survival... Nevertheless, why would life, that you claim has no purpose, care about staying alive?
QuoteLife might have something different to say? Why? How? hat do you mean when you say 'Life'? Is it some kind of being? Eternal death is easy to believe in because we are organic beings, and we can see how that organic structure decays and is lost when we die. Gone, never to return.
Never return? And you know this because of your extensive knowledge of death. The very thing that no one living has any concept of. So, with no concept of it, your just going to rob yourself of any hope? So, you think this world exists for your pleasure, get the most out of it that you can because thats all you get? But you dont know that, and yet assume with 100 percent certainty that you do. Your probably not in a position to find hope yet because you sound like everything has been handed to you on a silver platter. Go tell that to some of the more humble envioronments, who had no choice, no opprotunity to be anything but poor... but you will find, they have great faith and great hope in spite of thier humble beginnings.
QuoteWhy does anyone voluntarily take action they know might lead to their death?
The greater good.
"We didn't start the fire"
You are really testing my patience, so I appreciate that. Drink it up, he died for you also.
"We didn't start the fire"
jakee 1,257
QuoteI swear, I think your just an argumentative person who doesnt read anything... your beginning to lose my interest.QuoteWhat? The way that life inhabits the universe is perfectly designed to sustain life?
Dude, it's what you said. It's not my fault if it doesn't make any sense to man or beast, and if you don't want to clarify then there's really nothing to be done.
QuoteWisdom is truth, or does that not make any sense to you?
No, it doesn't. Wisdom and truth are two different words that mean two different things. It's like saying "light is vision" - it's an explanation that is of absolutely zero use in determining what you mean when you use either term.
QuoteNevertheless, why would life, that you claim has no purpose, care about staying alive?
How would any living creature with any measure of intelligence not care about it? It's the most basic evolutionary principle - beneficial traits are preserved more often than detrimental ones, caring about staying alive is pretty damn beneficial.
QuoteNever return? And you know this because of your extensive knowledge of death. The very thing that no one living has any concept of.
Ever seen a brain keep working after it's owner died?
QuoteSo, with no concept of it, your just going to rob yourself of any hope?
Hope for what? I'm happy with whatever I get here on earth, I'm not at all bothered about needing more afterwards.
QuoteSo, you think this world exists for your pleasure, get the most out of it that you can because thats all you get?
I'm sorry, are you trying to paint me as someone who thinks life has no purpose, or as someone who thinks everything is here to serve my purposes? Try to pick one line and stick to it.
(It's the first one, by the way. the earth isn't here for me, it's just here. So am I, so are you.)
QuoteThe greater good.
So there you go. Jesus went around preaching because he thought it was for the greater good. Just like millions upon millions of others throughout history, some of them right, some of them wrong.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
jakee 1,257
QuoteNo, it doesn't. Wisdom and truth are two different words that mean two different things. It's like saying "light is vision" - it's an explanation that is of absolutely zero use in determining what you mean when you use either term.QuoteWisdom is truth, or does that not make any sense to you?
To expand on that, let's have a look at what happens if we take a paragraph of yours and replace 'wisdom' with 'truth':
To me, to think that the universe or life does not have truth, (truth to adapt, to evolve, to know and identify truth,) doesnt make any sense. Truth is not einsteins theory of relativity, or E=MC2, Those things arent true because einstein made them true, truth makes them true, and einstein found that truth.
Does that make sense to you? Life has truth to identify truth? What about "truth's peace that comes from eternal grace". Is that what you meant? If it really is, then I have to ask what on earth it is you mean when you use the word 'truth'?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
QuoteNow, life just randomly after billions and billions of years (which no man alive would even have a grasp of how old that is) just magically indwells this bubble in a way that couldnt be more perfectly designed to sustain life.
The bubble is the earth that seems to be perfectly designed to sustain life. Unless Ive totally missed something?
QuoteNo, it doesn't. Wisdom and truth are two different words that mean two different things. It's like saying "light is vision" - it's an explanation that is of absolutely zero use in determining what you mean when you use either term.
This is actually a good point. The point I was trying to make is that wisdom and truth was here before our revelation of them. Most good wisdom is true, and most truth is good wisdom. Picture a scratch off lottery card... as the wisdom is scratched away, the truth is revealed. I guess in your analogy one could say as the light is shone, the vision appears. Without the light, one couldnt see the vision, without wisdom, one cant see the truth. Instead, if someone had the light, they would see the vision, and if someone had wisdom, they would see the truth. So, light=vision, and wisdom=truth.
QuoteHow would any living creature with any measure of intelligence not care about it? It's the most basic evolutionary principle - beneficial traits are preserved more often than detrimental ones, caring about staying alive is pretty damn beneficial.
On this one you and I are only going round and round. If the argument is that life has no purpose, as many atheist believe, why are you continuing to argue against what many atheist believe? No purpose, means no benefit, means no caring, means no preservation... clearly you are acknowledging that there is intelligent purpose in life.
QuoteEver seen a brain keep working after it's owner died?
Me, no. but that doesnt mean that the influence surrounding that particular life was not felt or used in thought in ways it was not aware of at the time. And though gone from the earth, the influence remains in the hearts and minds of those who understood them, or dare I say loved them. But, here we are arguing what/if anything, happens when you die. One thing to consider is that if life dies, never to be brought back into existance again, how could it have ever existed in the first place? Still, no one answers this question... and Ive asked it several times now.
QuoteHope for what? I'm happy with whatever I get here on earth, I'm not at all bothered about needing more afterwards.
Once again, your happiness is a purpose. Its not at all about needing more afterwards J. Its about your given right to hope in this life. So your happy with everything, thats great, but what if you were to lose it all, and that does happen.? Hope is not designed to make you crave the afterlife, it is designed to fill you with life now.
QuoteSo there you go. Jesus went around preaching because he thought it was for the greater good. Just like millions upon millions of others throughout history, some of them right, some of them wrong.
Agreed. some are right arent they? But as far as Jesus is concerned, it wasnt what was taught that gave the truth, it was what was given, and what was given has been doing the teaching. Its not my grace, its Gods grace. Either way, if you acknowledge that some are right at least, then I would be very open to hear some of the ones you speak of. I am always open to wisdom, I sincerely do not care where it comes from.
"We didn't start the fire"
jakee 1,257
QuoteThe bubble is the earth that seems to be perfectly designed to sustain life. Unless Ive totally missed something?
You said that the way life inhabits the bubble is perfectly designed for life, not that the bubble itself is perfectly designed for life. Never mind. Simple answer, the universe is unimaginably massive, with unimaginable numbers of planets that have come and gone. Chances are that at least one of them is going to be good enough for life to form, and the ones that are good enough are the only ones that we're going to be standing on saying "Hey, wow, aren't we lucky we're on a planet good enough for life?"
QuoteThis is actually a good point. The point I was trying to make is that wisdom and truth was here before our revelation of them. Most good wisdom is true, and most truth is good wisdom. Picture a scratch off lottery card... as the wisdom is scratched away, the truth is revealed. I guess in your analogy one could say as the light is shone, the vision appears. Without the light, one couldnt see the vision, without wisdom, one cant see the truth. Instead, if someone had the light, they would see the vision, and if someone had wisdom, they would see the truth. So, light=vision, and wisdom=truth.
What? Now you're just contradicting yourself. In the scratchcard analogy the wisdom is obscuring the truth. I'll disregard that one. The second half of the paragraph is slightly more helpful: are you saying that wisdom is like an entity that descends upon someone allowing them to know things?
QuoteOn this one you and I are only going round and round. If the argument is that life has no purpose, as many atheist believe, why are you continuing to argue against what many atheist believe? No purpose, means no benefit, means no caring, means no preservation... clearly you are acknowledging that there is intelligent purpose in life.
Clearly, I'm not.
Think of life as a self perpetuating process. Keeps going and going for generation after generation. Along the way, changes happen, some good some bad. The changes that are really bad cause that strand of the process to break down and stop, and it disappears, follow me?
So, think about those processes in terms of animals with even rudimentary intelligence. An animal with a genetic predisposition to think to itself "fuck this shit, I'd rather crawl off and die" is not going to survive to breed, that process will not continue. An animals that is predisposed to think to itself "great, I want to eat, fuck, and not get eaten today" is much more likely to survive and breed, continuing that process.
Still with me? 'Cos that's basically it. No overarching intelligent purpose, just the inevitableconsequence of evolution. If you have creatures with any kind of mind, that mind is going to want to survive, because if it didn't, it wouldn't even be there.
It's kinda the same deal as with the planet. Living things will only ever be able to say "Hey, lucky we were born on a hospitable planet" because that's the only kind of planet they'd ever be born on, and intelligent life will always (in general) care about self preservation, because that's the only kind of intelligent life that could evolve. No wisdom, just purely natural selection.
QuoteOne thing to consider is that if life dies, never to be brought back into existance again, how could it have ever existed in the first place? Still, no one answers this question... and Ive asked it several times now.
Chemistry.
QuoteOnce again, your happiness is a purpose.
Yep. But it's my purpose, not anyone/thing else's. (Unless some other person voluntarily chooses to make my happiness their purpose, which would be pretty cool. Unless it got creepy)
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
Quote
I will correct you,
You're actually would be correcting a dictionary definition, not me. Note the use of quotes.
Quote
It was some years later as I dismossed religon altogether, that i discovered the possibility of being Agnostic, it made much more sence than being athiest as I relly 'love' nature and find it an essential part of what we are and how we came to be.
So technically you went from "I do not believe there is God and I behave like there is none" to "I do not know if there is God, but I behave exactly like there are none". Is it correct?
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *
maadmax 0
Jesus fucking Christ 
I really enjoy this forum because it presents a glimpse into where people find their motivation and purpose for life at a very basic level. So far the leading contenders are anger and hate on one side and love and compassion on the other.
...
Quote
On this one you and I are only going round and round. If the argument is that life has no purpose, as many atheist believe, why are you continuing to argue against what many atheist believe? No purpose, means no benefit, means no caring, means no preservation... clearly you are acknowledging that there is intelligent purpose in life.
This makes me wonder what purpose had the life of Adam and Eve, who apparently didn't need any caring, benefits or preservation?
What purpose would have the lives of those who will be resurrected once the God clears the Earth and makes it Heaven? What is the purpose of life in Heaven? Apparently, everyone has everything and doesn't need anything, so what they gonna do? Sleep the whole day?
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *
QuoteTo expand on that, let's have a look at what happens if we take a paragraph of yours and replace 'wisdom' with 'truth':
To me, to think that the universe or life does not have truth, (truth to adapt, to evolve, to know and identify truth,) doesnt make any sense. Truth is not einsteins theory of relativity, E=MC2, Those things arent true because einstein made them true, he just proved them truth makes them true, and einstein found that truth.
Does that make sense to you? Life has truth to identify truth? What about "truth's peace that comes from eternal grace". Is that what you meant? If it really is, then I have to ask what on earth it is you mean when you use the word 'truth'?
With a few subtle differences yes. There is a peace inside all of us, it is annoyed constantly by worrys, concerns and so forth of this world, not the earth, but the world of domination that we have created on the earth. That peace belongs to nature, nature, wisdom, truth (seperate them or not, really doesnt matter) When we are at one with that peace, we are living by the truth of nature. That is, nature provides, nature nurtures, nature cares, guides, and teaches, but we have designed a world apart from nature, world of man, where many things appear good and many appear evil, nevertheless, where truth is hidden until it is revealed.
True peace goes beyond understanding, beyond, thought, beyond knowledge ect... it is powerful, I dont get to touch it everyday, but I know its there. I dont know how else to explain this.
A murderer is on trial, he's guilty, but no one could find the evidence to convict him. Just because they couldnt find the truth, doesnt mean it wasn't there.
QuoteDoes that make sense to you? Life has truth to identify truth?
No, not really, the point is that life is designed in truth, and thats why we have a connection with it. Its also designed in goodness, which is why we have a connection with that as well.
"We didn't start the fire"
QuoteWhat? Now you're just contradicting yourself. In the scratchcard analogy the wisdom is obscuring the truth. I'll disregard that one. The second half of the paragraph is slightly more helpful: are you saying that wisdom is like an entity that descends upon someone allowing them to know things?
No, Im just saying that if you find truth, wisdom got you there. QuoteClearly, I'm not.
Think of life as a self perpetuating process. Keeps going and going for generation after generation. Along the way, changes happen, some good some bad. The changes that are really bad cause that strand of the process to break down and stop, and it disappears, follow me?
So, think about those processes in terms of animals with even rudimentary intelligence. An animal with a genetic predisposition to think to itself "fuck this shit, I'd rather crawl off and die" is not going to survive to breed, that process will not continue. An animals that is predisposed to think to itself "great, I want to eat, fuck, and not get eaten today" is much more likely to survive and breed, continuing that process.
Still with me? 'Cos that's basically it. No overarching intelligent purpose, just the inevitableconsequence of evolution. If you have creatures with any kind of mind, that mind is going to want to survive, because if it didn't, it wouldn't even be there.
It's kinda the same deal as with the planet. Living things will only ever be able to say "Hey, lucky we were born on a hospitable planet" because that's the only kind of planet they'd ever be born on, and intelligent life will always (in general) care about self preservation, because that's the only kind of intelligent life that could evolve. No wisdom, just purely natural selection.
I do follow you, but I disagree. I believe life has purpose, and you simply dont. But, Im not just saying that because I believe in Jesus. For me, thats a no-brainer, as everything I have seen (thats apart of nature) has some sort of purpose. For you, its also a no-brainer to say that life does not have purpose. No worries, we'll just leave it at that... at least you seem to use class when someone disagrees with you... its appreciated.
QuoteYep. But it's my purpose, not anyone/thing else's. (Unless some other person voluntarily chooses to make my happiness their purpose, which would be pretty cool. Unless it got creepy)
you mean like a jumping stalker or something?
But your right, it is your purpose, and in the grand scheme of things, is just as important as anyone elses. Ive always said to follow your heart, the path that it takes us down is quite remarkable to say the least. Well, its 0530 in the morning over here and Im just about to get off work. I think im about to get fired thanks to my interest in these forums.
"We didn't start the fire"
rhys 0
QuoteWell, someone who believes it is a fact that life was created for/by something would not be an agnostic in this sense. They would be a believer who doesn't know what they believe.
Bullshit! Saying that is also saying that 'all' agnostics believe that the Universe has always been here and never had a beginning.
Agnostics, such as myself, belive that the origins of existence cannot be fathomed with our current understanding.
I all I know is what we are told by the self proclaimed illuminati, is a load of old codswollop.
If you choose to believe in Christianity (not to say you do, but figuratively speaking) that is up to you and your choice, it is also up to me and my choice to consider you an idiot for doing so.
I don't feel the need to know what the origin of life was just to appreciate it.
Quoteag·nos·tic
1.One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
2. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
3.One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.
adj.
1. Relating to or being an agnostic.
2. Doubtful or noncommittal: "Though I am agnostic on what terms to use, I have no doubt that human infants come with an enormous 'acquisitiveness' for discovering patterns" (William H. Calvin).
What definitition do you use?
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix
Isn't your god in control over all this? God made those stupid atheists kill each other! Maybe you should blame him
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