Downwind Landing Training

[kkeenan 13]

This sounded like a strange idea when it was mentioned on another forum, but I've been thinking about it.

Everyone (knowledgable) knows that it is far better to take the grass stains and bruising that may come from a downwind landing rather than try to get into the wind from a low altitude and suffer the often cataclysmic injuries that we read about too often.

So, what are the thoughts on including some sort of training for newbies that includes some sort of intentional downwinder ? If folks are taught how to do it, then they may be more accepting of this alternative landing type if they get into that situation. It is completely true that people have died trying to make a landing in a direction that would only change their landing speed by a few MPH. Maybe showing them that a downwinder is do-able would ease the last-minute panic and bad decision making.

Kevin Keenan

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[peek 20]

If the owner of the gear is OK with it I think it would be a good idea, but of course only if the conditions were just right, meaning not too much wind.

By the time people get their own gear they are so afraid of falling down and getting it dirty that they are terrified of going downwind even by a few miles per hour.

Of course, there are some people that are so afraid of falling down at all that they are going to be difficult to convince to give it a try, because they assume they cannot run that fast.

For some, the act of falling down is closely associated with getting hurt because they have never played rough as a kid and fallen down as a course of playing.

[DougH 270]

I had to do one wicked fast downwinder. I happen to PLF and roll very well from years of being a practice dummy on various football teams.

The only way I prepared for it was having the mindset that I don't mind to tumble. If don't feel like a landing is going well I would rather look like a fool, than feel like a fool and break a leg.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Fast 0]

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If the owner of the gear is OK with it I think it would be a good idea, but of course only if the conditions were just right, meaning not too much wind.

By the time people get their own gear they are so afraid of falling down and getting it dirty that they are terrified of going downwind even by a few miles per hour.

Of course, there are some people that are so afraid of falling down at all that they are going to be difficult to convince to give it a try, because they assume they cannot run that fast.

For some, the act of falling down is closely associated with getting hurt because they have never played rough as a kid and fallen down as a course of playing.

The people who are so worried about thier gear they would rather get hurt crack me up. I have black leg pads on my current rig and if possible will have them on every other rig I ever own.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[BIGUN 1,106]

Why is water/night training mandatory for a USPA license, but downwind landing training is not?

Why is it we don't give as much attention to PLF training as we do EP's? We'll use PLF's a lot more than we will EP's.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Do don't we have emergency exit drills on commercial flight?

[peek 20]

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Why is water/night training mandatory for a USPA license, but downwind landing training is not?

Well, at least it is one of the later licenses....

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Why is it we don't give as much attention to PLF training as we do EP's? We'll use PLF's a lot more than we will EP's.

I guess because many people are completely unwilling to admit that they will ever need one, even to the point of not doing one even when a "crash" is eminent.

I see a lot of absolute denial of a lot of things by skydivers.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I guess because many people are completely unwilling to admit that they will ever need one, even to the point of not doing one even when a "crash" is eminent.

Not everyone is willing to face his/her fears.

[NWFlyer 2]

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Of course, there are some people that are so afraid of falling down at all that they are going to be difficult to convince to give it a try, because they assume they cannot run that fast.

For some, the act of falling down is closely associated with getting hurt because they have never played rough as a kid and fallen down as a course of playing.

It's because although they have been taught to PLF in their first jump course (presumably!) every time they don't stand it up (especially off student status) the dirt on their jumpsuit or their leg straps or the back of their rig is pointed out by half the jumpers in the landing area. The message is sent that standing up = good and not standing up = bad. But the reality of course is that sometimes, standing up = less safe and not standing up = more safe.

(This is coming from someone who has ended a lot of jumps not standing up ... into the wind, crosswind, downwind, but has never broken a bone or had anything worse than bruises and scrapes. I decided a long time ago I could deal better with bruises to my ego than to my body).

I wonder if a mandatory PLF or two during the student days wouldn't be too bad an idea ... at the very least it gets people used to the idea that falling down (if you do it right) is not a horrible thing.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[kelpdiver 2]

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I wonder if a mandatory PLF or two during the student days wouldn't be too bad an idea ... at the very least it gets people used to the idea that falling down (if you do it right) is not a horrible thing.

how do you make it mandatory, yet valid? If they can't manage to involuntarily PLF, they're doing a better job of flaring that I was and an acted out PLF doesn't quite resemble the one when you need it to suck out the kinetic energy.

[parachutist 1]

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This sounded like a strange idea when it was mentioned on another forum, but I've been thinking about it.

Everyone (knowledgable) knows that it is far better to take the grass stains and bruising that may come from a downwind landing rather than try to get into the wind from a low altitude and suffer the often cataclysmic injuries that we read about too often.

So, what are the thoughts on including some sort of training for newbies that includes some sort of intentional downwinder ? If folks are taught how to do it, then they may be more accepting of this alternative landing type if they get into that situation. It is completely true that people have died trying to make a landing in a direction that would only change their landing speed by a few MPH. Maybe showing them that a downwinder is do-able would ease the last-minute panic and bad decision making.

Kevin Keenan

When I'm teaching AFF first jump courses, I stress to the students that the most common cause of injury in the sport today is hard turn at low altitude.

"If you get to 100 ft and realize that you've misread the wind sock and you're going downwind, cotinue ahead and flare at 10-12 ft. It's good PLF practice. If you try to do a 180 you'll end up in an ambulance"

They remember this becaue I repeat it several times throughout the FJC and I make crashing sounds when I'm explaining what will happen if they make a low 180.

So anyway, recently I was on the ground watching one of my students come in for a landing (jump #6 or 7) She'd learned not to do hard low turns ... she's on final approach at about 100 ft and going the wrong way. She starts turning a 180 and she knows it's a really bad idea because I'm watching her kicking in the air like crazy, knowing she's in distress. She knows she's making a bad decision, but she's turning anyway. It seemed like her conscious couldn't convince her subconscious to fly straight ahead and PLF. Thankfully she was light and flying a really big canopy, so the biff didn't do more than bruise her a bit.

Maybe she could benefit from an intentional downwinder a some point. Like Mr. Peek was saying, though, it would depend on consent from the gear owner.

Chris

[billvon 2,473]

>Why is water/night training mandatory for a USPA license,
>but downwind landing training is not?

Because many people are afraid of landing downwind. They would protest such a requirement because they would feel it would injure more people than it would help.

>Why is it we don't give as much attention to PLF training as we do EP's?

We do (at least at the DZ's I jump at.) However, we do not cover high speed PLF's which are a bit different. (Same start, different finish.)

[Kurbe105 1]

Landing downwind is an art that is often looked upon as stupid and dangerous by most in the sport much the same as skydiving is looked upon as stupid and dangerous by much of society. With the rising popularity of canopy piloting we are constantly pushing our limits and changing what is regarded as the norm. Landing downwind is a beautiful thing once a few basic survival skills are learned. First off, never stop flying your canopy even once your feet or bum have touched the ground. Second, the glory points come from the speed, not standing up the landing, so keep your feet up and slide in the landing(especially if you've got 20+ lbs of lead on to up your wingloading). Think of those grass stains as braggin' rights because you're still walking and able to get on the next load!!!

[NWFlyer 2]

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I wonder if a mandatory PLF or two during the student days wouldn't be too bad an idea ... at the very least it gets people used to the idea that falling down (if you do it right) is not a horrible thing.

how do you make it mandatory, yet valid? If they can't manage to involuntarily PLF, they're doing a better job of flaring that I was and an acted out PLF doesn't quite resemble the one when you need it to suck out the kinetic energy.

They're definitely doing better than I did! But there are people who "get it" right away, who are standing up landings from Jump 1, and I could imagine (though it's not been my experience since I've always struggled at landings) that it would be easy to get overconfident and assume you could stand up/run out every landing, regardless of how bad the situation.

I don't know exactly how you'd "force" someone to do it, other than to say, "PLF this landing." I'm not an instructor, though, so I really have no insight into how that might be applied as a training technique; it was just an idea.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[mabend 0]

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They're definitely doing better than I did! But there are people who "get it" right away, who are standing up landings from Jump 1, and I could imagine (though it's not been my experience since I've always struggled at landings) that it would be easy to get overconfident and assume you could stand up/run out every landing, regardless of how bad the situation.

I don't know exactly how you'd "force" someone to do it, other than to say, "PLF this landing." I'm not an instructor, though, so I really have no insight into how that might be applied as a training technique; it was just an idea.

This is me so far, I've stood up the few landings that I've done solo, and I don't want it to make me over confident. I definitely agree with what you're saying. When the time comes that I have to PLF, I'm sure it will be hard for me to convince myself to do it because I've been so confident in my landings thus far.

This goes along with my thinking that I kind of want some minor things to go wrong so that I can prove to myself that I can deal with them. I'd rather deal with problems early on then go through my whole life never having anything go wrong.

[velvetjo 0]

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I wonder if a mandatory PLF or two during the student days wouldn't be too bad an idea ... at the very least it gets people used to the idea that falling down (if you do it right) is not a horrible thing.

how do you make it mandatory, yet valid? If they can't manage to involuntarily PLF, they're doing a better job of flaring that I was and an acted out PLF doesn't quite resemble the one when you need it to suck out the kinetic energy.

An easy way to make a PLF "mandatory" is to have the student perform crosswind landings in winds over 5 knots. Most people can't run too well sideways, so a PLF is a safe alternative under most student canopies. We teach this as an additional requirement for the A license signoff. Landing crosswind also gives some sideways momentum, which usually makes a PLF easier to do.

I agree that downwinders should be part of any skydivers' bag of tricks. We teach a baseball slide method, which seems to work well and minimizes the chances of back & tailbone injuries compared to a butt-slide.

If you've never tried a downwinder, you're missing out. They're fun!

Lance

[popsjumper 2]

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...
I agree that downwinders should be part of any skydivers' bag of tricks. We teach a baseball slide method, which seems to work well and minimizes the chances of back & tailbone injuries compared to a butt-slide.

OMG! OMG! I'm NOT the only one who believes this!
WooooHooooo!!!!!!!!

We just had a AFF L1 jumper fracture vertebrae by butt-sliding even after being rigorously taught and warned and repeatedly practiced the "baseball" slide.

Most people at my DZ are either opposed to the baseball-slide or think that there is nothing wrong with the butt-slide because TIs do it all the time....idiots.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[EricaH 0]

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repeatedly practiced the "baseball" slide

Ok, I LOVE the baseball slide! Though I call it the soccer tackle slide cause that's where my muscle memory comes in.

Only problem is that I can't do anyother kind of slide. I'm currently healing from a 3 inch diameter piece of skin being ripped off the top of my foot from sliding in on gravel it hurts!!

Anyway, I am being warned off it since a friend of mine did this & shattered his heel bone - a combination of an unexpected ledge in the landing area & his body coming down on his heel a lot harder & centered than he'd expected, basically hip bone shattered heel bone - bizarre!

Just thought I'd throw my $0.02 in.

BTW, I love cross & down wind landings, they are something that every landing is an opportunity to work on. Good for anyone that works on it - could save your life one day.

ps... I'm wearing tennis shoes from now on

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[kallend 1,679]

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>Why is water/night training mandatory for a USPA license,
>but downwind landing training is not?

Because many people are afraid of landing downwind. They would protest such a requirement because they would feel it would injure more people than it would help.

Quite likely it would - just like spin training for pilots was found to have killed more people than it saved, and keeping pilots from getting into spins in the first place was better.

I was told by my FJC instructor not to make low turns, and I had no difficulty following his advice.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[popsjumper 2]

You have enough experience to understand the odds of the heel bone vs the tailbone without having to do research...the naysayers are not thinking.

Your reference to "soccer tackle" is good and I didn't think of that (I'm an ex-baseballer as you can tell). I'll use it for the soccer players. Thanks!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 2,473]

>just like spin training for pilots was found to have killed more people
> than it saved, and keeping pilots from getting into spins in the
>first place was better.

Right. But if the number of people killed in spins went up dramatically after such training was removed, I bet they'd reconsider very quickly. And right now, the number of people getting killed doing low turns is going up dramatically.

>I was told by my FJC instructor not to make low turns, and I had
>no difficulty following his advice.

That's great! But clearly, a lot of people _do_ have trouble. (And if you listen to his advice, then you DO have to land downwind on occasion, no? So knowing how to do that would be key . . .)

[ntacfreefly 0]

Yay for baseball slides.

I'll happily demo them all weekend this weekend

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[Samurai136 0]

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That's great! But clearly, a lot of people _do_ have trouble. (And if you listen to his advice, then you DO have to land downwind on occasion, no? So knowing how to do that would be key . . .)

Maybe I'm a little dense at this moment, what exactly needs to be taught for doing a downlanding? Fly downwind, pick your feet up, flare and slide.

I think Brian Germain's sport psychology observations have more bearing on the low turn problem than anything else. Everyone knows how to do downwind landings.

Because of adrenaline, stress, fear, psychological "inertia" all people tend to be somewhat impaired when it comes to critical thinking and self awareness skills. People who are making low turns are failing to make a continuous assesment of "the plan".

The training/ Changes that need to occur are teaching people to "be coachable" and make a continuous assesment of their landing plan. Be willing to alter that plan if you realize you must to make a safe landing. People who are getting hurt making low turns are failing to make continous piloting assesments between 1000' and the ground.

Ask yourself during your landing pattern, "How is my landing plan going? Am I too low to make this turn?"

The skills that need improvement in this sport are:
1. Relaxation skills (how to overcome the effects of adrenaline, stress and fear)
2. Critical Thinking skills
3. Canopy Control skills

In my opinion, the people who are getting hurt are failing in one, or all three, of the above skills.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[MakeItHappen 15]

Ok I have to reply now.
I've read many views on this thread and have not seen my opinion posted.

My opinion differs significantly from many others.

Kevin postulates

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If folks are taught how to do it (downwind landing), then they may be more accepting of this alternative landing type if they get into that situation. It is completely true that people have died trying to make a landing in a direction that would only change their landing speed by a few MPH. Maybe showing them that a downwinder is do-able would ease the last-minute panic and bad decision making.

I would postulate something completely different. I believe that people making low turns are doing so because they think they have enough altitude, not because they don't want to get their jumpsuit dirty.

The real question to answer is why people too low for such-n-such turn do the turn anyway. They may think they are high enough, but they are not.

Why is the sight picture and evaluation of descent rate incorrect?
That is the question to answer, before trying some 'what if we had these requirements...' type testing phase.

I wrote a rather long article on this that SNM did not publish because Truffer and I could not agree on some nomenclature. If you want a copy, please request one via email.

As to the baseball slides, baseball slides are different than the soccer or QB football slides. Baseball slides are break-away slides. That means that as your lower leg touches a base it will fold so as not to break that leg or ankle. The bases are anchored above ground. Home plate is flush with the ground. Soccer and QB slides are all done on known flat terrain and work well in that environment.
When landing in perhaps, uneven terrain, a break-away slide is better.

Erica, the experiences you related do not epitomize a proper baseball slide.

I do baseball slides or my modified jumper slide on most no/low wind landings because my knees are not what they used to be.
On some of my landings the slide goes into a stand-up. I use the last little bit of canopy lift to stand me up, but the approach has a slide to it and not a run as fast as you can type approach.

In essence, I think that requiring a mandatory downwind landing would be counter productive and makes about as much sense as requiring mandatory tree or power line landings.

To date my highest wind, down wind landing (~20mph) was at Coolidge many moons ago.
The windsock indicated wind from the north. I was going North. As I got closer to the ground my ground speed increased. The guy that landed a few seconds before me broke his ankle. His canopy landed in front of him. I realized there was a wind shear. I leaned backed in my harness and did the best "I'm stealing home in the bottom of the ninth" slide I could muster. I slid about 75 feet and stood up at the very end. I couldn't believe I made it thru that.

Preventing low turns is more about why people do low turns than why they don't want to get dirty.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[ntacfreefly 0]

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Preventing low turns is more about why people do low turns

Because most are, from student status, drilled with the 'land into the wind'. I hear it on the plane all the time. I see it from experienced instructors, all the time.

Example: winds are light and variable. Landing direction is set to the west. Instructor A insists on landing to the east, and vehmently vocalizes this, because, at that time it's a 1mph headwind.

Stupid, yes but it happens ALL the time.

Now I'm not advocating downwind landing training, but I do think instructors/experienced skydivers need to think long and hard about what they say, and how they say it. Students are always listening.

How many times have you heard in response to " which direction are we landing in" someone piping up "into the wind".

Not the whole problem by any means but, IMO, a part of it we shouldn't ignore.

Blues,
Ian

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer