"Buy American"

[AggieDave 6]

This phrase is thrown around a lot and I was wondering what other people believe it means.

Let me explain the fracas with the following examples:

Toyota and Honda have manufacturing plants in the US run by US divisions of the parent corporation. These plants employ "Americans" and produce vehicles in "America" for "Americans." So its a US company manufacturing vehicles in the US, if you buy a Toyota Tundra did you not just "buy American?"

A Harley Davidson, is for the most part manufactured in Mexico and China. The motorcycle is assembled in the US. Is it now safe to buy a HD to "buy American?" What about the Kawasaki that I own, it was built in the US, by US workers and by a company's division based in the US. Since the components are nearly completely manufactured out of the country, did you just fail to "buy American?"

This comes up from someone in the G&R forum telling someone they should have bought American due to some problems they have experienced with Icarus. I found the statement incredulous since the largest manufacture in the world is based in Florida and a majority of their canopies are built in Honduras.

There are prime examples of US based companies manufacturing items in the US, although even then its not as simple as people believe. For instance, take a smaller firearm manufacture who completely CNCs their merchandise in house and sells them locally. On the surface this fits, but there is a high chance that the purchased steel was mined and forged in China or else where.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[n23x 0]

I agree with it being shades of grey, and also agree that it's few and far between that we find a product that is totally "made in America".

I don't like the phrase, "buy American", as its main purpose seems to be to invoke commercial patriotism. I prefer "buy local". Is there a local shop that might do the same thing that a bulk supplier can do? Preference, then, to the local guy.

That being said, money and performance matters. If I get a significant increase in savings, performance, or vendor interaction, those can always tip the scales.

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[normiss 622]

Interesting that HD claims 98% of it's bike is in fact manufactured and assembled in the US.
{http://www.harley-davidson.com/wcm/Content/Pages/Factory_Tours/factory_tours.jsp?locale=en_US]Harley Plants[/url]
Aftermarket parts for them? Whole other discussion.

My only complaint to "American made or assembled" foreign products is that the profits leave our economy.

I own 2 American vehicles, one Japanese. Damn near all my electronics are Japanese, guns are American, tools are American, beer is American.
There are still a select few foundry's in the US that IMO make a far superior quality of steel products than their imported competitors do.


I do think the world economy has and continues to be a real challenge for maintaining quality jobs and pay for everyone.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Interesting that HD claims 98% of it's bike is in fact manufactured and assembled in the US.

They do claim that and its sort of correct.

Take a speedometer. HD buys a speedometer "made" in the US, which in turn is actually assembled in the US. The components for the speedo were actually made in India or Brazil. So is that part "made in America" and truthfully claimed as so by HD or wasn't it? That's when it gets really gray.

That is another facet to this discussion. Where was the foundry located that cast the blanks for the cylinders or other mechanical components? The engine was assembled ("made") in America, but what about the internals?

So HD buys 98% of the components from US companies, but as those components are broken down that number has been stated to be much much smaller.

Semantics in advertising. They have an image to keep, after the heavy previous promoting. Not that they are bad bikes, just what do people believe "buy American" means? This is a perfect example for the discussion.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

My only complaint to "American made or assembled" foreign products is that the profits leave our economy.

Take that analysis one step further. A large share of the profits are distributed to the sharehiolders whether they are the parent corporation or individual shareholders.
What percentage of the equity (and thus dividends) on the NYSE is actually owned by Americans. Conversely what percentage of markets in places like Mumbai and Taipei are owned by Americans or American firms?

[normiss 622]

The engine slugs I think are Canadian....last I heard.
Like most companies that want to keep the MIUSA "label", it's very hard to find out!

It's a real challenge too...we allow foreign ownership and investment in US companies, so the gaskets that HD uses on the cylinder bases are made at half a dozen US located plants (how is it cheaper to ship pieces all over the place???) are actually foreign owned companies.

I thought our government required a declared % number of "US made parts" on vehicles, no?

You're right though Dave...marketing games to say the least!
So if I buy an MV Agusta...is that an American motorcycle?
Harley does own one of the premier travel trailer companies as well one of the best cargo van companies in the US!

[billvon 2,435]

>On the surface this fits, but there is a high chance that the purchased
>steel was mined and forged in China or else where.

That is indeed an issue. With the global economy the way it is today, it's even more complicated than that. Ore may come from Canada, go to India for smelting, be shipped to China for working, and be shipped back to the US as formed sheet steel.

Some areas that it's simpler:

Farming. Local farms (CSA's) do pretty much everything locally. The ones that are also organic use 99% local materials; even the fertilizers are generally local. (Compost etc) About their only 'foreign' purchase is oil to run tractors and deliver food.

Beer/wine. It's labor intensive but people are willing to pay a lot for it, so the industry is doing OK. And most breweries/wineries use 90-95% local materials. The infrastructure is sometimes foreign, but since the market for things like fermenters and mash tuns is _very_ limited, US companies can still compete.

Ironically the end of cheap oil may start a slow return to local manufacture at least for some of the larger/heavier products. Expensive fuel may make it uneconomical to ship ore thousands of miles for smelting. (Barring the use of nuclear power for transportation, which has been done but is politically unpopular.)

[peek 20]

Quote

This comes up from someone in the G&R forum telling someone they should have bought American due to some problems they have experienced with Icarus. I found the statement incredulous since the largest manufacture in the world is based in Florida and a majority of their canopies are built in Honduras.

I was mainly trying to focus on the "customer support" issue with canopies, but yes, I admit I got off on a tangent.

Performance Designs passes the "Sinclair Test", so it is my opinion that they are an American company.

For those of you who are now confused:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3343285;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

I buy plenty of products not made in America. I love Walmart. But if I am buying something that is expected to need service, parts, or customer support, it sure is easier to do business with an American company, (at least from here in the USA.)

[FreeflyChile 0]

Quote

But if I am buying something that needs service, parts, or customer support, it sure is easier to do business with an American company, (at least from here in the USA.)

The cynic in me says that (until recently), w/r/t cars, the reason it might need more service, parts or customer support is BECAUSE you bought American...

[AggieDave 6]

Farming the food industry are some of the worst, and its hard to know when you are buying locally. Even from a "farmers market." Reason being is that it has been found that many times the "farmers market" folks are reselling shipped in produce that they bought wholesale.

We as a society have come to demand certain things when ever we want them. Bill, lets use a locally known product for you, avocados. In SoCal you could literally have a home grown fresh avocado nearly year round. Well, the people in Michigan want it as well. So what happens and to support the large demand of modern shoppers, avocados are grown and shipped to the US from central and South America.

I'm not advocating a return to a US centric economy. Our modern society couldn't support it. The stark increase in price of our basic goods would cripple the economy.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Krip 2]

Hi Dave

IMO We're all showing our age it's a obsolete term it doesn't mean anything.

One Jump Wonder

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

Hi Dave

IMO We're all showing our age it's a obsolete term it doesn't mean anything.

Exactly. World trade has not only made us wealthier, it has made us interdependant to the point that war is unthinkable between a large and growing number of countries.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

it has made us interdependant to the point that war is unthinkable between a large and growing number of countries.

Just like the Treaty of Non-Aggression between Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics from August of 1939?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

Just like the Treaty of Non-Aggression between Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics from August of 1939?

The German import from USSR in 1940 was only 7.6%, fifth after Italy, Denmark, Romania and Netherlands.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

Quote

it has made us interdependant to the point that war is unthinkable between a large and growing number of countries.

Just like the Treaty of Non-Aggression between Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics from August of 1939?

The more trade, the more expensive a war. The corporate lobby will just not stand for it.

[freeatlast 0]

Quote

Farming the food industry are some of the worst, and its hard to know when you are buying locally.

This is very true - but the bigger the manufacturer the more complicated the picture becomes.

Using the seafood industry as an example - one company that was selling 'fresh' local 'shrimp' in Scotland was found to be catching the shrimp and freezing them before shipping them 12 000 miles to be peeled. The processed shrimp were then re-frozen and shipped back 12 000 miles before being sold as locally caught fresh shrimp.

Apparently it was possible for the shrimp to be shelled locally but it wasn't the best option financially ...

Obviously people buying the local shrimp thought that they were helping the local economy whereas the workers being paid to actually process the shrimp were literally on the other side of the world!

So it is very difficult to find out the truth behind the 'facts'.

One company that i know was getting almost 100% of their production parts from China and assembling the product in the home country simply to use the 'made in' stamp on their products as the locals were prepared to pay more for something they thought was made locally compared to an item that they knew was made in China

[billvon 2,435]

>Even from a "farmers market." Reason being is that it has been
>found that many times the "farmers market" folks are reselling shipped
>in produce that they bought wholesale.

That may be true in some cases, but for the most part CSA's grow everything locally. We belong to one (Be Wise Ranch) that grows 100% of their crops locally. They're organic as well. They are a great way to be sure you know what you're getting.

> Bill, lets use a locally known product for you, avocados. In SoCal you
>could literally have a home grown fresh avocado nearly year round.

Right. We get avocados from the CSA but not bananas. In Michigan you can't get either one from a local farm, but you can hundreds of other kinds of produce. Below is a map showing CSA's in Michigan.

http://www.csafarms.org/michigancsamap.asp

> Well, the people in Michigan want it as well. So what happens and to
> support the large demand of modern shoppers, avocados are grown and
> shipped to the US from central and South America.

Of course. I wasn't saying that all our food is grown locally - merely that if you want to buy locally, you can. Your choice.