This Country is Coming Apart at Its Seams.

[quade 3]

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Do you truly have an inability to understand that others have different beliefs or are you just stirring it up?

I have a perfect ability to understand that people have different opinions. I also have not just the ability but am of the mind that a little education and facts go a long way in bringing people TOGETHER on a topic as long as BOTH parties are willing to actually read or listen to what the other person has to say.

So far in this thread I've offered up several examples of what Obama is trying to do to support my point of view.

Where are yours?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kbordson 8]

Going back to the initial title of this thread:

"This Country is Coming Apart at Its Seams."

Can a Country that was founded on accepting differing beliefs survive? Or should we all be forced to accept the same state mandated beliefs for the sake of the Country? [insert crying women and children to prove a point... doesn't matter what point... just to prove a point]

[quade 3]

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Or should we all be forced to accept the same state mandated beliefs for the sake of the Country?

You mean state mandated beliefs like kids should stay in school and get a good education? Oh my! That is oppressive isn't it?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kbordson 8]

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Do you truly have an inability to understand that others have different beliefs or are you just stirring it up?

I have a perfect ability to understand that people have different opinions. I also have not just the ability but am of the mind that a little education and facts go a long way in bringing people TOGETHER on a topic as long as BOTH parties are willing to actually read or listen to what the other person has to say.

So far in this thread I've offered up several examples of what Obama is trying to do to support my point of view.

Where are yours?

As the title dealt with "the Country" and not "Obamas Speech" - I expanded my discussion to include NOT just one speech but government involvement as a whole. My point has less to do with a specific speech. More to do with belief systems in the Government is requiring sponsored "pep talks" to children. As this thread began - I stated it was a trust issue with the government. I didn't pick apart his proposed speech. I have a problem with the Government required infomercial... I just don't think it's right.

I've also mentioned discussions that I've had with politicians about other government controls. And countered other side topics that were brought up (like the religion comment or the Presidential Fitness point) and I've stressed that I believe in PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and not indoctrination to one thought and one mind.

That's where my beliefs lie. Where are yours?

Your above post seems to say that you think that you've been rational and logical and sound in your responses... but you started your responses with insulting and name calling. Now... I'm not saying that I've been overly respectful of your tone or posts, but I have been willing to say - "ok... you like it, let your children go." However if anyone claims that they would not want to have their children there... they must be "paranoid." So... You've shown where your beliefs lie. People can have "different opinions", as long as, with "a little education", they are willing to change that opinion so that it sounds like yours. So how do you feel about home schoolers? Or private schools? Are they as paranoid? Should they be required to watch this as well? Or should they be exempt? Are we all equal, or are some more equal than others?

- well... It's time for me to head to bed. It has been interesting though to read the "tolerant" opinions of some who pride themselves in being "liberal minded."

[kbordson 8]

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Or should we all be forced to accept the same state mandated beliefs for the sake of the Country?

You mean state mandated beliefs like kids should stay in school and get a good education? Oh my! That is oppressive isn't it?

Home schoolers?

Or what about those that have made a success for themselves without a college degree? I might have had quite a few years of post graduate education, but that doesn't mean that I'm better than my Mother or my Husband. Neither of them have a college degree.

Is it "better" to stay in school... that's a judgment call. And... I would rather the Government stay out of that judgment.

[quade 3]

Are you seriously suggesting that kids are better off dropping out of school?

Seriously?

Come on, now you're just being silly.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rhys 0]

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t: It's a trust issue.

Not everyone trusts the government.

Not everyone wants political speeches to be directed at their children.

Not everyone believes that this will be a "state of the nation" type speech, rather a required infomercial on how to be a good "supporter."

So you suggest he just recites a nursery rhyme or a bible passage rather than being the leader he was elected to be?

You all know what happened when the last presedent sat down and spun a yarn with the kids!!

We'll you bloody well ought to anyway!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[JackC 0]

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Is it "better" to stay in school... that's a judgment call.

I wouldn't trust the judgment of anyone who says its better to drop out than stay in school. In fact I'd consider it a form of child abuse.

[kbordson 8]

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t: It's a trust issue.

Not everyone trusts the government.

Not everyone wants political speeches to be directed at their children.

Not everyone believes that this will be a "state of the nation" type speech, rather a required infomercial on how to be a good "supporter."

So you suggest he just recites a nursery rhyme or a bible passage rather than being the leader he was elected to be?

You all know what happened when the last presedent sat down and spun a yarn with the kids!!

We'll you bloody well ought to anyway!

You are kidding with that reply, correct?

Otherwise it suggests that the World Trade Centers came down because Former President Bush was reading to children.

[tkhayes 126]

the more the right wing stands up and whines about everything that Obama says or does, the better it is for all of us. They will fully demonstrate themselves to be IDIOTS.

How the fuck can ANYONE find something wrong with a speech encouraging people to be educated?

The 'right' shows its true colors. morons......

[mnealtx 0]

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I will never in a million years understand how these assholes can do that.

Ratings.

Sensationalism attracts viewers, so that's where the money goes. It's all about advertising.

Well, that explains Olbermann.....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kbordson 8]

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Is it "better" to stay in school... that's a judgment call.

I wouldn't trust the judgment of anyone who says its better to drop out than stay in school. In fact I'd consider it a form of child abuse.

So don't trust me.

Are people who home school child abusers?

When my father who had to work on the farm instead of finish his senior year, until the farm was sold and he restarted a year later, did that made my Grandparents child abusers?


Think about this
- am I now taking a specific situation and saying "but this is ok" to an overall BAD plan.... kinda like taking ONE lil speech and saying "but this one is ok." instead of seeing a big picture view and thinking "this is bad."

There are MANY topics where your opinion can vary depending on whether you view it as a specific situation or a general policy. I've viewing this situation as a Government presenting political statement to children in a required venue. THAT is bad.

[kbordson 8]

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the more the right wing stands up and whines about everything that Obama says or does, the better it is for all of us. They will fully demonstrate themselves to be IDIOTS.

How the fuck can ANYONE find something wrong with a speech encouraging people to be educated?

The 'right' shows its true colors. morons......

TK,

have you read ANY of my posts? was there ANY effort on your part to understand the opposite opinion?

Or am I just a moron, an IDIOT? (as I think I see in the post above)

(and for the record - I'm not Republican, so don't label me as either 'right' or 'left.')

[TomAiello 25]

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And there is a name for them; PARANOID.

Ah, yes. Anyone who disagrees with you must be wearing tin foil hats? Right?

So much easier to just throw that accusation around repeatedly, rather than actually discussing things.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

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[I also have not just the ability but am of the mind that a little education and facts go a long way in bringing people TOGETHER on a topic as long as BOTH parties are willing to actually read or listen to what the other person has to say.

Ah, so immediately calling people paranoid, in ALL CAPS, is your way of listening to what they have to say?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[mnealtx 0]

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Are people who home school child abusers?

Don't you remember, Karen? Our social / intellectual betters already told us that home schoolers are all ignorant rednecks that are teaching their kids nothing but intelligent design and bigotry.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[TomAiello 25]

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Ask not what you can do for your country; demand instead that no one bother you.

Exactly. That's exactly it.

I realize you were probably sarcastic, but yes, that's exactly what I want.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

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And if a policeman were to address them on the value of being a good law abiding citizen? Would you pull your children out of the assembly, lest they hear something you might consider political?

Probably.

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I find it especially ironic that the same political group that supports prayer in school is HORRIFIED! HORRIFIED! that the president of the United States might want to speak to children as well as adults. (Not saying you share those sentiments on prayer.) Interesting to see how their feelings on free speech change when they disagree with the content of what's said.

Hey, here's an idea. Instead of discussing the issue, let's throw out an unrelated issue, type some all caps, and try to somehow link two different groups of people together.

I'm an atheist. I think prayer in public schools is inappropriate.

I'm a strong supporter of free speech rights. Forcing you to listen is not part of my right to speak.

Forcing my children to listen is not part of your right to speak.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

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What have you been reading or listening to that leads you to believe otherwise?

The original curriculum handout from the Department of Education, actually.

It had an assignment requiring children to explain how they would help the President achieve his goals, and suggesting they be held accountable for doing so in the future.

I realize it's been changed now, because of public outrage. The fact that it was there to begin with gives me reasonable doubts as to his intentions.


I'll cue you now with another comment about how I must be a paranoiac with undersized metallic headgear.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[kbordson 8]

Where did your post justifying the "paranoid" comment go?

I was actually looking forward to this opportunity to address that remark.

Mentioning something like "ah, yes. using a limited definition for an adjective totally erases any insult that was intended with that word. Now post number three in this thread isn't insulting at all."

But if I truly believed that, I would either have Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease or the counter-coup injuries from my past did more damage than had thought.

-and for the record, no. I'm not suggesting that ALL kids are better off dropping out of school. But I have signed official medical statements for several allowing them not to have to interact in a school environment. And I have a good friend that home schools her five children. I have some personal reservations about that decision, but - GUESS WHAT - they aren't my children. She and her husband have the RIGHT to make that choice. I also have some friends that chose to go the route of private schools... again, same argument.

Just because I don't want the Government giving speeches to children, doesn't mean that I want an under-educated population. Making that leap of logic is faulty.

[TomAiello 25]

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Or, is that also some sort of Commie plot to indoctrinate and corrupt American's youth?

You know, it'd be easier to believe you really wanted to discuss things if you left out your bits about "Commie plots". Stuff like that is just an attempt to stereotype people without listening to what they are saying.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[JackC 0]

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Are people who home school child abusers?

Unless they are knowledgable enough to teach all the subjects in the national curriculum and are able dedicate the time necessary to educate their child to the required standard, then yes I'd say they are guilty of child abuse. I know of very few people who I would consider to be qualified to home school. I am not one of them.

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When my father who had to work on the farm instead of finish his senior year, until the farm was sold and he restarted a year later, did that made my Grandparents child abusers?

I can't say I'd be too happy about doing that to one of my kids but I will accept there may be mitigating circumstances I don't know about in this case. But as a general principle yes, I'd be looking at a situation like that to see if it was a form of child abuse.

[d_squared431 0]

I dont think it is right for the Government make my 8yr old listen to one mans political beliefs. I do not agree with anything that Obama has done or is doing and I do not want my 8yr old to be apart of this.

My 8yr old is not going to school that day!

TPM Sister#130ONTIG#1
I love vodka.I love vodka cause it rhymes with Tuaca~LisaH
You having a clean thought is like billyvance having a clean post.iluvtofly

[kbordson 8]

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Are people who home school child abusers?

Unless they are knowledgable enough to teach all the subjects in the national curriculum and are able dedicate the time necessary to educate their child to the required standard, then yes I'd say they are guilty of child abuse. I know of very few people who I would consider to be qualified to home school. I am not one of them.

- Granted. That is actually my opinion of MY ability as well. However, I also not so trusting to believe that everything that is in the "national curriculum" is correct either.

In college, I took a course called Rhetoric of Campaigns and Revolutions.

372 Rhetoric of Campaigns and Revolutions. 3 cr. Public discourse as it affects and reflects the process of dynamic social change. Historical and contemporary instances of rhetorical processes. P: So st.

It actually taught me A LOT about how "simple words" can change the world. It taught me that high school history is "wrong" - meaning a simplified and incomplete version of "real" history.

I don't trust every thing that I'm told.

Did the UW-Madison make me "paranoid"? Hell no. But it furthered my desire to question what I'm told and not just accept everything at face value.

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When my father who had to work on the farm instead of finish his senior year, until the farm was sold and he restarted a year later, did that made my Grandparents child abusers?

I can't say I'd be too happy about doing that to one of my kids but I will accept there may be mitigating circumstances I don't know about in this case. But as a general principle yes, I'd be looking at a situation like that to see if it was a form of child abuse.

[JackC 0]

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Are people who home school child abusers?

Unless they are knowledgable enough to teach all the subjects in the national curriculum and are able dedicate the time necessary to educate their child to the required standard, then yes I'd say they are guilty of child abuse. I know of very few people who I would consider to be qualified to home school. I am not one of them.

- Granted. That is actually my opinion of MY ability as well. However, I also not so trusting to believe that everything that is in the "national curriculum" is correct either.

If you're not qualified to teach the national curriculum, how are you qualified to say whether it is correct?

There are subjects I am not qualified to teach nor am I qualified to say whether the national curriculum is correct. But if I refused to allow my kids to learn on an equal footing with all the other kids, I'd be doing them a disservice.

It's better to criticise a subject for what it actually is rather than what I might erroneously think it is.