This Country is Coming Apart at Its Seams.

[pirana 0]

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I am suspicious of government involvement.

Just out of curiosity, are you also suspicious of say, the President's Council on Physical Fitness? Or, is that also some sort of Commie plot to indoctrinate and corrupt American's youth?

That's right. As the saying goes "Give them the body and the mind will follow." Or was it "Your feet are going to stay on the ground and your head is there to move you around." No, I got it now, "Remove the head and the body will die." That's not it either. Ah fuck it.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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I've also mentioned discussions that I've had with politicians about other government controls. And countered other side topics that were brought up (like the religion comment or the Presidential Fitness point) and I've stressed that I believe in PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and not indoctrination to one thought and one mind.

Wouldn't the Prez (or any well spoken adult) speaking to them about the importance of a good education fall under the umbrella of taking personal responsibility, living an effective life, and so on and so forth? Certainly doesn't seem like "indoctrination" to me.

Appears to me people are getting their undies in a bundle because of who is doing the talking.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[kbordson 8]

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I've also mentioned discussions that I've had with politicians about other government controls. And countered other side topics that were brought up (like the religion comment or the Presidential Fitness point) and I've stressed that I believe in PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and not indoctrination to one thought and one mind.

Wouldn't the Prez (or any well spoken adult) speaking to them about the importance of a good education fall under the umbrella of taking personal responsibility, living an effective life, and so on and so forth? Certainly doesn't seem like "indoctrination" to me.

Appears to me people are getting their undies in a bundle because of who is doing the talking.

That or establishment of a precedent.

See what you like.

[pirana 0]

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You are kidding with that reply, correct?

Otherwise it suggests that the World Trade Centers came down because Former President Bush was reading to children.

Was it ever disclosed exactly what it was he was reading?

Maybe Barack should be warned.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[SpeedRacer 1]

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I've also mentioned discussions that I've had with politicians about other government controls. And countered other side topics that were brought up (like the religion comment or the Presidential Fitness point) and I've stressed that I believe in PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and not indoctrination to one thought and one mind.

Wouldn't the Prez (or any well spoken adult) speaking to them about the importance of a good education fall under the umbrella of taking personal responsibility, living an effective life, and so on and so forth? Certainly doesn't seem like "indoctrination" to me.

Appears to me people are getting their undies in a bundle because of who is doing the talking.

That or establishment of a precedent.

See what you like.

Wasn't the precedent already set by President Bush Sr. back in 1991? Bush Sr. did it first.

Speed Racer
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[pirana 0]

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I've viewing this situation as a Government presenting political statement to children in a required venue. THAT is bad.

Incredibly imaginative (or twisted) interpretation of the topic. Or just really really reaching for the sake of arguement.

I've given the stay-in-school, get-the-best-education-you-can speech to many classes. Had no idea I was conducting political indoctrination.

Shit, next time I'm going to demand a fee from, uh, . . ., whoever it is that is benefiting from my indoctining.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[kelpdiver 2]

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Speaking as a parent my kids will NOT be attending school on Tuesday. It's not so much about trusting the system or the government but about trusting Obama. I'm sorry but the man cannot be trusted. Period.

So what sort of lesson is this teaching your children? The 6-8 year olds won't get it, fortunately, but the older ones will learn that ignorance is bliss and rather than have to hear or understand potentially different viewpoints, one should avoid education for a day.

They'll be totally unprepared later when they run into a university professor (or employer) who really is a Marxist/Vegitarian/Mormon/French and who will use their position of authority to promote their views.

After Tuesday, the transcript of his speech will be available and we'll all know how ridiculous this discussion was. Of course, the ones responsible for making something out of nothing will insist that it was their cries that made Obama steer clear of the evil plan he got out of Mein Kamph.

[kbordson 8]

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I've also mentioned discussions that I've had with politicians about other government controls. And countered other side topics that were brought up (like the religion comment or the Presidential Fitness point) and I've stressed that I believe in PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and not indoctrination to one thought and one mind.

Wouldn't the Prez (or any well spoken adult) speaking to them about the importance of a good education fall under the umbrella of taking personal responsibility, living an effective life, and so on and so forth? Certainly doesn't seem like "indoctrination" to me.

Appears to me people are getting their undies in a bundle because of who is doing the talking.

That or establishment of a precedent.

See what you like.

Wasn't the precedent already set by President Bush Sr. back in 1991? Bush Sr. did it first.

I was in college then. Being in ROTC, it was EXPECTED that I support the government. But... that wouldn't have meant that I would have been in favor of that speech specifically OR the precedent of government sponsored speeches.

If I would have accepted that speech (specifically or as a big picture), it is possible that my opinion might have changed over the past 18 years. I might have become more jaded and less trusting.

but... I still don't think that I would have liked it. (I'm speaking in possibilities because I honestly don't remember that speech OR my opinion on it when I was a little otherwise distracted almost 2 decades ago)

[pirana 0]

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Are you seriously suggesting that kids are better off dropping out of school?

I seriously think that many kids would be better off with non-traditional schooling, such as home schooling, than they would be if they were forced into public schools.

Yes. Seriously. No, I'm not being silly.

There are relatively few parents that can effectively home school beyond a pretty early age. Whether it is time, their own knowledge base, or whatever; there just aren't that many as a percentage of the population that could do it well.

Now if you think it is cool for parents to decide at say, the age of 4 that their child is going to be a ditch-digger for life and so why bother with formal schooling; then yes, everybody could home school.

My comments are base on your use of "many." If by that you think even some simple majority of parents could take kids even thru the sixth grade and do a good job - I strongly disagree.

If the other alternatives is a reference to some form of professionally led private schooling; yes, that is doable; but really only differs from the public schools in quality of the average result and cost. They mostly have the same goal and probably are just as guilty of indoctrination as the public system.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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But, we are willing to trust them to HAVE the children. Allowing them to reproduce without expecting the responsibility of taking care of those children. There is something wrong with that.

Totally irrelevant. "We" do not get to trust them or not trust them to have children. It's none of our say and whether we trust them or not is not relevant.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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The idea that Obama is going to "indoctrinate" kids is simply bullshit. It's an idea that was tossed out by the national equivalent of forum trolls, some other folks are now listening to this bullshit and have become paranoid of what the President of the United States may have to say about kids staying in school and getting a good education.

I'm sorry, but if people are afraid of that, then they actually are correctly described as being paranoid.

You're being kind. Lunatic is the word I'd use.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[rhys 0]

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Anyway, i think the guy has his heart in the right place, but his tactics and policy are just so far left, he loses touch with reality.

Usa is so far right, that anything close to centre is considered extreme left.

Obama has policies, he was elected for them, he has only been in position for less than a year.\\Considering the clusterfuck he inherited, i believe he is doing relly well.

those that oppose, have gone to exteme lengthes to try to sway the opinions towars him as negative.

For a presedent is it difficult, the tug of war between doing what you think is right, and keeping the all important votes is immense.

The amount of peer pressure to be right wing, christian, and star spangled in america is borderline psychotic.

Obama needs to balance these things, he is doing a great job and only in a couple of years will the right have a chance to be able to do anything about it.

The statistics will decide how good of a job he is doing/has done, but for a high percentage of the right wing, no matter how much good he does for the country, he will always be a two bit nigger!

Sad and stupid but unfortunately the truth!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[pirana 0]

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ok ... I read thru the thread, and as seems to be "the usual" with stuff like this, the discussion has degenerated significantly and nobody offered a real solution.

No solution needed as there is no problem. The Prez is to give a short pep talk on staying in school and getting an education. Some who dislike him consider that indoctrination.

Get a grip folks.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[RhondaLea 4]

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Tom, I read what the people are saying. I see the fear and it's unfounded. An unfounded fear is paranoia.

The idea that Obama is going to "indoctrinate" kids is simply bullshit. It's an idea that was tossed out by the national equivalent of forum trolls, some other folks are now listening to this bullshit and have become paranoid of what the President of the United States may have to say about kids staying in school and getting a good education.

I'm sorry, but if people are afraid of that, then they actually are correctly described as being paranoid.

Dr. Bordson is not paranoid, and it would be more productive to analyze her arguments and debate her civilly than resort to sarcasm, ad hom and other fallacies.

I don't agree with her, generally, but that's not to say she hasn't made some legitimate points.

Skydiving is doomed. Soon enough you'll all be so polarized that you won't even be able to get a two-way together.

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[SpeedRacer 1]

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Skydiving is doomed. Soon enough you'll all be so polarized that you won't even be able to get a two-way together.

Yep. We're also going to have real problems in the landing area, because all the ultra-conservatives will refuse to turn to the left.

Speed Racer
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[RhondaLea 4]

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Skydiving is doomed. Soon enough you'll all be so polarized that you won't even be able to get a two-way together.

Yep. We're also going to have real problems in the landing area, because all the ultra-conservatives will refuse to turn to the left.

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[quade 4]

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Dr. Bordson is not paranoid, and it would be more productive to analyze her arguments and debate her civilly than resort to sarcasm, ad hom and other fallacies.

And if you can quote where I've specifically called anyone on this forum paranoid, I invite you to do so.

I'll admit that I can occasionally have lapse in judgement and I'm more than willing to apologize for any specific statement made in that form. It should be obvious to any reasonable person I was not talking specifically at all, but rather addressing the unfounded fears (paranoia) of the people that have been duped by the right wing trolling talking heads.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Amazon 7]

I can't believe you are actually posting here in the "So Many Children who were left behind" forum...

[BDashe 0]

I agree with you on most of your points, actually.

We are, generally right of center on the global scale, however when you compare to democracies only around the world, and you look at obama's agenda then the pendulum starts to lean left. On America's scale, that is WAY out of sync with our founding principals.

Obama was elected for his rhetoric, he detailed very little of what his actual policies were. again, wtf is 'vote for change?' since america was so anti-bush/anti-right wing; it didnt matter what 'change' was, it had to be better than bush right? ...maybe not...

I agree, lots of the strong opposition are total A-holes that will say anything to be heard/scare. I dislike a lot of right wingers myself.

Agreed, pres has a VERY tough balancing act. Obama ain't balancing well, IMO, for reasons I stated earlier.

patriotism is one thing, he doesn't need to cater to the far right since there is no pleasing them, no pressure. Now, I do agree, it can be difficult to sway someone like me, closer to the center, but not impossible. Despite what he says, his actions are what are speaking to me, and the rest of the moderates or more centered righties. They are telling me 'tax, and spend, rob the rich, give to the poor.'

I agree, it is early on, and there are lot sof unknowns, a couple more years will give much more clarity. From what i've seen so far, however, he is gonna keep trying to steamroll the right until we vote to balance congress and senate when he cant do that anymore.

I wouldnt say a high percentage of the right wing have that attitude, but i will agree a disturbing amount of die hards are too ignorant to see beyond their bubble. keep in mind, same would probably be true for the left should mccain have been elected.

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

[billvon 2,772]

>But, this isn't "Free Speech" - this is the Government requiring children
>to listen to politics.

The government is not requiring anyone to listen to politics. There is no law that requires it. There are no storm troopers to come to schools and march kids at gunpoint into a TV room. Some teachers/schools may choose to have their classes listen to it; some may not.

If a social studies teacher wanted to teach their class who the current president was, would you pull your child out of that class to avoid "the government" (i.e. a government-paid teacher) requiring children to "listen to politics?"

[RhondaLea 4]

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Dr. Bordson is not paranoid, and it would be more productive to analyze her arguments and debate her civilly than resort to sarcasm, ad hom and other fallacies.

And if you can quote where I've specifically called anyone on this forum paranoid, I invite you to do so.

I'll admit that I can occasionally have lapse in judgement and I'm more than willing to apologize for any specific statement made in that form. It should be obvious to any reasonable person I was not talking specifically at all, but rather addressing the unfounded fears (paranoia) of the people that have been duped by the right wing trolling talking heads.

I'm thinking of a phrase...one of bill's oft-used phrases, as a matter of fact...

"thinly-veiled personal attack"

The English language is one of the most flexible of languages, and it will allow you to do all manner of ad hom without ever looking someone in the eye and calling him a weasel.

I have to admit that a lot of the conversational terrorism I find in this forum is elegantly done; unfortunately, no matter how thoroughly you perfume a goat, it's still a goat.

To be straighforward, yer still doin' it. That's not to say everyone else isn't doing it too--most of them are--but you happen to be the person who responded to my post responding to your post, so the spotlight is yours.

Nice to see you, btw.

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[RhondaLea 4]

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I can't believe you are actually posting here in the "So Many Children who were left behind" forum...

It's a surreal experience, I must say. I remember when Michael Dudek and I were fighting like badly-behaved housepets in windcatcher's Christian thread...it seemed so important, so critical, to win. ("Win what?" you might well ask. I still don't know the answer to that question.)

Ye gods. This forum never rests, and so very little gets written that has a basis in any kind of logical argument. It's almost always about justifying ones gut feeling with some kind of pseudo-logic. Interesting to watch now and again, but daily? My head just exploded.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[marks2065 0]

If a social studies teacher wanted to teach their class who the current president was, would you pull your child out of that class to avoid "the government" (i.e. a government-paid teacher) requiring children to "listen to politics?"

[quade 4]

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"thinly-veiled personal attack"

The English language is one of the most flexible of languages, and it will allow you to do all manner of ad hom without ever looking someone in the eye and calling him a weasel.

You mean like in the last sentence above where you used a "thinly-veiled personal attack" to call me a "weasel"?

Now, I'm nearly certain you didn't mean to do that, so I'm not actually calling you hypocritical for doing it, but using that as a perfect example of how some folks get their panties in a bunch by identifying with the collective.

To paraphrase Carly Simon, "you probably think this post is about you."

Well, it's not. (Most of the time anyway.)

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,772]

>If the teacher had a balance of right and left in what they taught and
>let the individual decide i would have no problem.

If you found out he was a democrat, would you pull your child out before he ever opened his mouth - just in case?

>so to this subject about Obama speaking to grade school kids and
>them having an assignment to write a letter about how they could help
>Obama really pisses me off.

They don't. Next objection?