Gary73 8
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Gary73 8
Hey Max! Yes, after thinking about this and related subjects for nearly fifty years, I have come to a number of conclusions. One is that the Bible should not be taken literally from cover to cover. Therefore, I would like to understand the thinking of those who do, and, if possible, get a few of them to think beyond what they've been taught to believe. This story seemed like a good place to start, since it seems to be clear that it can't possibly be literally true.
WRT your interpretation, yes, that's how most Christians and Jews see it.
WRT the Nazis (it's an Internet discussion, so they had to be mentioned eventually, right?), as I understand it, they believed in God, (Gods?), but they interpreted things differently than most Christians do, and their interpretation allowed them to do things that most of us consider to be abominable. On the other hand, no one should ever forget that with their church's blessing, Christians have engaged in slavery, genocide, torture, kidnapping, murder, and so on throughout history. And once again, they believed that they were doing Right by God every bit as much as you and I believe that they were not. So how do we know what constitutes right action? That's a discussion for another thread.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
WRT your interpretation, yes, that's how most Christians and Jews see it.
WRT the Nazis (it's an Internet discussion, so they had to be mentioned eventually, right?), as I understand it, they believed in God, (Gods?), but they interpreted things differently than most Christians do, and their interpretation allowed them to do things that most of us consider to be abominable. On the other hand, no one should ever forget that with their church's blessing, Christians have engaged in slavery, genocide, torture, kidnapping, murder, and so on throughout history. And once again, they believed that they were doing Right by God every bit as much as you and I believe that they were not. So how do we know what constitutes right action? That's a discussion for another thread.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
RonD1120 58
QuoteAny true scholar of the Bible would be an idiot to say that Revelation is a literal text. That conclusion simply cannot be reached with any effort in to studying it. Exegetically if you look at the first fact (apocolytic writing) that tells you right away that it is metaphoric. I am not picking and choosing what I choose to believe is literal and what is not. The Bible basically tells you what is and is not by how it was written. Anyone can choose to believe it or not but starting from the premise that you believe the Bible it is fact that some books are written literally while others are not. I am also stating that your idea of a "fundy" or a "Literalist" is skewed. Not many believe it is all literal and those who do need to actually take the time to study what they are devoting their faith to........ just as a person saying that the KJV is the only true and real text..... that is insane..... especially because the original text is Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek. It is the same thing. So no I am not picking and choosing like "most Christians" in your opinion..... I am telling you that some books ARE and some are NOT.
QuoteEphesians 6:12 (New King James Version)
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
What are we to do? Should we engage in the spiritual warfare or should we silently hide in the confines of our secret computer rooms?
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
Rstanley0312 - I didn't mean to imply that most Christians use a dartboard to choose which parts they take literally, just that they do make a choice. You seem to believe that your choices were made based on scholarly study; either yours or that of people you trust. You seem to believe that the issues are so clear that you didn't even really make a choice; that it's as plain as 1 + 1 = 2*. That's fine, but the fact remains that there are Christians around the world who disagree with your conclusions, including some who sincerely believe that the entire Bible (KJV, usually) should be taken literally, and they believe in their interpretation every bit as much as you do. Again, those are the people I'd like to hear from.
Well it is not as simple as I am explaining it either but it can be if you know whart you are looking at just as it can be to a mathematician becuase he/she knows what they are looking at.
BTW, I think that I do get what you're saying: that anyone who disagrees with you is insane or an idiot, maybe both. (Your words, not mine!)Quote
True..... some do believe that but it is not that many and not a typical Fundamentalist.
Quote
No I did not say that nor do I believe it. If you actually study the Bible meaning Christian Biblical scholars, Secular Biblical scholars, even atheist Biblical Scholars (yes they exsist) it really is as simple as..... this is literal and this is not. I am not saying anyone has to believe that it is true or not I am speaking of the actual language and how it was written. What I said was thinking the KJV is the only true word of God is insane. I have told many KJV opnly people that in debate. The truth is there are screw ups abound in it and we know where they are. Is it not simple logic to say that if you believe in God and the Bible is what God had prepared that the original text is what really is the true word? Not a translation? Again, not talking about the belief in God or the supernatural simply stating the study involved and that the original text would have to be the actual truth... right? That is what is insane.... thinking that a translation is the one and only and yes I have had KJV only people tell me that it is the only true word NOT the original text. This has nothing to do with me stating I'm right and their wrong... just using basic logic.
**** Again getting off topic, but mathematicians don't find 1 + 1 = 2 to be all that obvious. It apparently takes 150 pages of proofs to define the number 1, then another 100 to define arithmatic.
Well it is not as simple as I am explaining it either but it can be if you know whart you are looking at just as it can be to a mathematician becuase he/she knows what they are looking at.
Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com
Butters 0
QuoteAs I recall from a study of Genesis, God will confuse and confound any organized effort by mankind that emphasizes human potential.
So God created us in his image and then punishes us for attempting to fulfill our potential ...
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch
Gary73 8
Rstanley0312 - You might want to re-read your last post. You say that you don't think that people who disagree with you are insane, then you come right out and admit that you have done exactly that. (Not very Christian of you, BTW.
)
WRT my use of the term Fundamentalist, I may have been incorrect there. Apparently there are people who refer to themselves as such who don't believe in an absolutely literal interpretation of the Bible. I offerred the term Literalist, but that seems unacceptable also. By what label should we refer to such people?
Oh, I mentioned the 1 + 1 = 2 example for a reason: Most folks would see the "truth" to that statement and not even imagine that there could be any room for discussion, but mathematicians will occasionally admit that "truth" in their field is really just what the preponderance of mathematicians agree it is, and that there is no absolute way of determining it. There may be a lesson there for the rest of us.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
quade 3
QuoteQuoteAs I recall from a study of Genesis, God will confuse and confound any organized effort by mankind that emphasizes human potential.
So God created us in his image and then punishes us for attempting to fulfill our potential ...
That should have been evident from the earlier story about the "Tree of Knowledge".
Like I said, Old Testament God is a control freak.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
billvon 2,433
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>or should we silently hide in the confines of our secret computer rooms?
I want a secret computer room!
I want a secret computer room!
wmw999 2,148
You get the dungeon -- isn't that enough?QuoteI want a secret computer room!
Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
billvon 2,433
>You get the dungeon -- isn't that enough?
Well, I suppose. But the lair is always so crowded lately what with Willem's ongoing attempts to destroy the Earth. All those subcontractors, henchmen and minions. I want my own secret computer room!
Well, I suppose. But the lair is always so crowded lately what with Willem's ongoing attempts to destroy the Earth. All those subcontractors, henchmen and minions. I want my own secret computer room!
Remster 24
Wow... Its kinda flattering to know that he had to hired so many people to replace me after I left.
Remster
RonD1120 58
QuoteQuoteAs I recall from a study of Genesis, God will confuse and confound any organized effort by mankind that emphasizes human potential.
So God created us in his image and then punishes us for attempting to fulfill our potential ...
No, we are condemned to spiritual death for not choosing to follow God's plan for spiritual life. God gives grace and talent to each person. We are held responsible for personal choices in our development.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
so, no free will after all!?
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda
JackC 0
QuoteNo, we are condemned to spiritual death for not choosing to follow God's plan for spiritual life.
Define "spiritual".
Butters 0
QuoteNo, we are condemned to spiritual death for not choosing to follow God's plan for spiritual life.
What a wonderful God to give us free will to choose between his plan or be condemned to spiritual death.
QuoteGod gives grace and talent to each person.
What a wonderful God to give us talent that we can't use or else he will confuse and confound us.
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch
RonD1120 58
Quoteso, no free will after all!?
Come on - read the words. Free will to choose, responsibility for choice.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
RonD1120 58
QuoteQuoteNo, we are condemned to spiritual death for not choosing to follow God's plan for spiritual life.
Define "spiritual".
What is your definition of spiritual?
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
RonD1120 58
QuoteQuoteNo, we are condemned to spiritual death for not choosing to follow God's plan for spiritual life.
What a wonderful God to give us free will to choose between his plan or be condemned to spiritual death.QuoteGod gives grace and talent to each person.
What a wonderful God to give us talent that we can't use or else he will confuse and confound us.
Like the gentleman from Switzerland, your confusion appears to be purposely self-initiated. Your circumlocution wrapped in intellectualization reveals liner thought in a unidemensional plane.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
Butters 0
QuoteLike the gentleman from Switzerland, your confusion appears to be purposely self-initiated. Your circumlocution wrapped in intellectualization reveals liner thought in a unidemensional plane.
Blah, blah, blah ... your babble revels your ignorance in regards to reality.
PS: Since you believe that I'm using an unnecessarily large number of words to express an idea or being evasive in speech I'll make my statement short and to the point ... your God is an evil dictator.
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch
JackC 0
QuoteWhat is your definition of spiritual?
Incoherent, poorly defined and generally meaningless mumbo jumbo.
I asked you to define the term because all I read was:
No, we are condemned to [gibberish] for not choosing to follow God's plan for [gibberish]
Your answer pretty much sums up the whole problem with the term spiritual. It means absolutely anything you want it to mean and so it is essentially meaningless.
RonD1120 58
Quote... your God is an evil dictator.
Not logical, you don't believe God exists or has power.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
BTW, I think that I do get what you're saying: that anyone who disagrees with you is insane or an idiot, maybe both. (Your words, not mine!)
* Again getting off topic, but mathematicians don't find 1 + 1 = 2 to be all that obvious. It apparently takes 150 pages of proofs to define the number 1, then another 100 to define arithmatic.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
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