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Lefty 0
I know it's not a perfect definition. However, if either of you can come up with a better definition that fits the connotation of the word and can't apply to every left and right wing viewpoint, I'd like to hear it.
Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin
-Calvin
quade 3
QuoteI know it's not a perfect definition. However, if either of you can come up with a better definition that fits the connotation of the word and can't apply to every left and right wing viewpoint, I'd like to hear it.
I know people dislike Wikipedia, but it's a good place to start your search.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremist
I don't think this is too far off the mark;
QuoteExtremism is a term used to describe the actions or ideologies of individuals or groups outside the perceived political center of a society; or otherwise claimed to violate common moral standards. The term is invariably, or almost invariably, used pejoratively. Extremism is usually contrasted with moderation, and extremists with moderates. (For example, in contemporary discussions in Western countries of Islam, or of Islamic political movements, it is common for there to be a heavy stress on the distinction between extremist and moderate Muslims).
With that in mind, I don't believe it's too far fetched to call Olbermann or Hannity or Limbaugh all extremists. Certainly, they aren't centrists.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
Lefty 0
QuoteQuoteI know it's not a perfect definition. However, if either of you can come up with a better definition that fits the connotation of the word and can't apply to every left and right wing viewpoint, I'd like to hear it.
I know people dislike Wikipedia, but it's a good place to start your search.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremist
I don't think this is too far off the mark;QuoteExtremism is a term used to describe the actions or ideologies of individuals or groups outside the perceived political center of a society; or otherwise claimed to violate common moral standards. The term is invariably, or almost invariably, used pejoratively. Extremism is usually contrasted with moderation, and extremists with moderates. (For example, in contemporary discussions in Western countries of Islam, or of Islamic political movements, it is common for there to be a heavy stress on the distinction between extremist and moderate Muslims).
With that in mind, I don't believe it's too far fetched to call Olbermann or Hannity or Limbaugh all extremists. Certainly, they aren't centrists.
By that...I mean am gay
EDIT: Goddamn manager...that'll teach me not to leave a minimized forum window around here.
OK, on to the real post.
By that definition we're all extremists because I don't think our views all line up with the exact center. I highlighted the areas where the Wikipedia definition fails. The connotation, not the definition, of the word "extremist" is why I take issue with people using it all the time. It is used almost exclusively to discredit, not to describe.
Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin
-Calvin
quade 3
QuoteThe connotation, not the definition, of the word "extremist" is why I take issue with people using it all the time. It is used almost exclusively to discredit, not to describe.
You don't have to ride the exact center to be a moderate and it's perfectly "OK" that some words have negative connotations. If you want to draw a bell curve and call anything within two standard deviations "normal" I think most statisticians would probably agree. That still leaves room for people outside "normal" to be called "extreme."
You're right, very few organizations would describe themselves as extremist. That doesn't mean they aren't.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
wmw999 2,122
We're talking about subjective matters when we talk about extremism, and subjective is very dependent on who's doing the judging.
Just look at Marg's poll to get an idea. One of the most important things about quantifying something is to make sure that the measuring system is reliable. And declaring something extreme counts as quantifying.
What's a reliable measuring system? If you're measuring the thickness of a needle, a ruler is no good. And if you're measuring the distance to the dropzone, a ruler also is no good. It has to provide results that are repeatable over multiple applications, and by different people.
People perceive opinions that differ wildly from theirs as being extreme. Which means that something like "center" is artificial. Because "center" is going to move, and "extreme" is going to move with it.
Wendy P.
Just look at Marg's poll to get an idea. One of the most important things about quantifying something is to make sure that the measuring system is reliable. And declaring something extreme counts as quantifying.
What's a reliable measuring system? If you're measuring the thickness of a needle, a ruler is no good. And if you're measuring the distance to the dropzone, a ruler also is no good. It has to provide results that are repeatable over multiple applications, and by different people.
People perceive opinions that differ wildly from theirs as being extreme. Which means that something like "center" is artificial. Because "center" is going to move, and "extreme" is going to move with it.
Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
Lefty 0
QuoteYou don't have to ride the exact center to be a moderate
I didn't say it, your definition did.
Quoteit's perfectly "OK" that some words have negative connotations.
Of course. My point though is that the word can be completely misued because of its connotation. For instance, the National Socialist party has somehow become an entity of the right, even though it is politically left wing.
QuoteYou're right, very few organizations would describe themselves as extremist. That doesn't mean they aren't.
Pfft. You know that wasn't my point. I wouldn't call you an extremist, but you're not a moderate either. It would be foolish to simply label you an extremist because you disagree with me. THAT is my point. The term is overused and misused by people who simply disagree with each other.
In your opinion, is there anything between moderate and extreme?
Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin
-Calvin
wmw999 2,122
I kind of like Quade's description of moderate as being a couple of standard deviations from center. The problem, as mentioned in my other post, is determining what "center" is. Since it changes from person to person, well, my "moderate left" might be your "extreme left" and your "moderate right" might be my "extreme right."
Each one of us is using a yardstick of our own devising.
Wendy P.
Each one of us is using a yardstick of our own devising.
Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
Lefty 0
QuoteI kind of like Quade's description of moderate as being a couple of standard deviations from center. The problem, as mentioned in my other post, is determining what "center" is. Since it changes from person to person, well, my "moderate left" might be your "extreme left" and your "moderate right" might be my "extreme right."
Each one of us is using a yardstick of our own devising.
Wendy P.
I understand what you mean. Which is why the connotation of a word can't be ignored.
Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin
-Calvin
wmw999 2,122
Connotation is very much a part of that moving yardstick. By ignoring the connotation, and providing a common definition that we can agree on, then we can begin to use it as a way to measure.
Connotations are important, but only when you've accepted the subjective and unmeasurable nature of what's being discussed.
Wendy P.
Connotations are important, but only when you've accepted the subjective and unmeasurable nature of what's being discussed.
Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
sundevil777 93
QuoteQuoteHow can people wonder why a passport would survive? WTF? Why is that surprising? Things get thrown and blown all over from all the floors during the collapse, but the presence of a passport or any other piece of paper is supposed to be important, give me a break!
Well when the passport is from one of the hijackers on a plan that burst in to flames as it rammed in to a building it kind of makes you wonder.
Like I said you are so sure of every thing I am not I don’t think I just magically know every thing to the point that questions are not allowed.
we have seen what being 100% sure and not asking questions has done for us in the past 8 years.
The real facts are that even in large explosions, there is a lot of 'surprising' stuff that survives the blast. We don't know exactly to where the passport was blown from the initial impact/explosion.
If the presence of a passport is the best evidence of the conspiracy, then you got nothing except speculation based upon seat of your ass/armchair non-expert judgement.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am
Lefty 0
Not quite the way I see it, but I don't know how else to explain what I've already said.
Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin
-Calvin
Wow, I make a claim about the word extremist being used in an intellectually lazy fashion and that's the definition you post. Didn't even bother to go to the root word "extreme".
Connotation and context are extremely important when dealing with political discourse. A simple dictionary definition just won't do.
-Calvin
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