revisiting 911 truth in the Obama days...

[jakee 1,257]

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it is funny that you mention that; while I was studying this last night I cam acrosss this letter;

There Was No Missile At the Pentagon - But the Plane Did Not Hit
(an open letter to the 9/11 truth movement)
by: Craig Ranke
Citizen Investigation Team
www.ThePentaCon.com
February 26, 2009

What an amusing letter.

Here's a question for you, Rhys; Where the fuck did the plane go?

So the CIT's say they have found lots of people who saw the plane flying into the Pentagon from the wrong direction to be the thing that hit it. OK. But if the plane didn't hit it, it would have just kept on flying. Did the CIT mention finding one solitary soul who saw the plane flying away in the other direction after the explosion? Did they fuck, because they're lying fucking idiots.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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I have not studied that code for quite a long time, many years ago when i was a volunteer fireman in the small town i grew up in.

so you are aware of it, good.

Now do you beleive the NIST, that clearly stated that they did not look for explosives, followed the guidelines that the are legally obliged to follow?

In other worrds, do you think it is O.K. that an investigation of such a proportion failed to complete the investigation within the guidelines they are bound to follow as an investigation team?

First off, are you sure the NIST is legally abliged to follow those guidelines?
Let's say they were. What makes you so sure they didn't? Short answers with credible links are ok, 500 word answers with several links to truther sites are not.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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it is funny that you mention that; while I was studying this last night I cam acrosss this letter;

There Was No Missile At the Pentagon - But the Plane Did Not Hit
(an open letter to the 9/11 truth movement)
by: Craig Ranke
Citizen Investigation Team
www.ThePentaCon.com
February 26, 2009

What an amusing letter.

Here's a question for you, Rhys; Where the fuck did the plane go?

So the CIT's say they have found lots of people who saw the plane flying into the Pentagon from the wrong direction to be the thing that hit it. OK. But if the plane didn't hit it, it would have just kept on flying. Did the CIT mention finding one solitary soul who saw the plane flying away in the other direction after the explosion? Did they fuck, because they're lying fucking idiots.

Sounds like a good plot for an episode of Fringe

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[rhys 0]

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Here's a question for you, Rhys; Where the fuck did the plane go?

Ask yourself, i'm not her to answer your questions.

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So the CIT's say they have found lots of people who saw the plane flying into the Pentagon from the wrong direction to be the thing that hit it. OK. But if the plane didn't hit it, it would have just kept on flying. Did the CIT mention finding one solitary soul who saw the plane flying away in the other direction after the explosion? Did they fuck, because they're lying fucking idiots.

So you are calling all of the eye witnesses that were questoned and independently said they saw the aircraft coming from the north (not the south) including at least two police officers, liers?

They were there and you were not, yet they are full of shit and you are somehow more correct than them?

for fucks sake.

I am not making any assumtions, I just want to look at all facets and try to work out what is a reasonable answer to the many bizarre anomolies that have been stated as fact in the official stroy when common sence would suggest otherwise, not just at the pentagon, or new york or any of the plane crashes, but all of them, and the following reports. none of them really make sence, and none of them have had criminal investigations done that the public can view and determine for themselves if what they are being told is the truth.

In your country the government may get away with criminal activity, but in mine, they still get speeding fines and get questioned for having luxuries that they should not have.

If you havn't got the bollocks to question authority, and simply believe anything you are told, then there is no wonder they get away with being so blatanty corrupt.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Belgian_Draft 0]

So back to the question we started with last week. Do you understand and accept that the orenge/red glowing pool flowing from the corner of the tower shortly before it's total collapse was molten aluminum and not steel? If not, why not? Let's settle one myth before moving on to the next.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[jakee 1,257]

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ask yourself, i'm not her to answer your questions.

I'm sorry, I should have remembered that you never question anything that comes from a fellow conspiracy theorist.

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so you are calling all of the eye witnesses that were questoned and independently said they saw the aircraft coming from the north (not the south) includign at least two police officers, lyers.

No, Rhys, that's not what I said. I said that the CIT are liars, not the people that they spoke to.

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I am not making any assumtions, I just want to look at all facets and try to work out what is a reasonable answer to the many bizarre anomolies that have been stated as fact in the official stroy when common sence would suggest otherwise,

Here's an anomaly for you Rhys: where did the plane go!? Is it reasonable to believe that not one single person saw that plane fly away if indeed it did not hit the Pentagon? What facets of the CIT's story are you looking at to try and work out that problem?

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If you havn't got the bollocks to question authority, and simply believe anything you are told, then there is no wonder they get away with being so blatanty corrupt.

Rhys, I know you like of think of yourself as some shining crusader for rational enquiry, but here's the real truth: you're not questioning anything. You're just swallowing whole whatever you get fed by the theorist of the day, no matter that so many of the different thories you've presented us are wholly contradictory!


Let me ask you, what do you believe happened at the Pentagon? Was it an aircraft, a missile, a bomb, what is it you think happened there?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[SpeedRacer 1]

If the plane didn't hit the pentagon, why are there photographs of airplane wreckage at the pentagon?

Speed Racer
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[billvon 2,406]

>not much, why?

You made a statement earlier:

"Considering the the black box data has recently shown that the flight deck door was never opened during flight . . ."

Which model FDR was it? What was the sampling period for that sensor? Had that particular FDR _ever_ recorded an open cockpit door in all its time of operation?

[airdvr 198]

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Because we have been unable to find a single piece of independent evidence for anything on the south side flight path we have logically concluded that the damage to the building was covertly implemented with pre-planted explosives similar to how they brought down the three WTC towers.

This is what is always so fun about conspiracy nutters.

"We couldn't find any evidence [that we liked], therefore our version must be correct!"

Hmm...sounds a bit like AGW.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 2,406]

>You understand it is a guide explaing the process of investigtion a
>fire or explosion, so why would you not think it would be reasonable
>for one to expect the NIST to follow those strict guidelines when they
>created thier report?

Perhaps the same reason that I (and many solar installers) do not always follow Article 690 of NFPA 70 strictly. It doesn't cover every situation, and it is not reasonable to expect that we install less safe/less effective systems to follow the letter of the law. Indeed, inspectors recognize this, and often impose their own (local) requirements that amend or replace parts of Article 690.

>Nope, anything with weight and mass has potential energy, Kinetic >energy is when when something is moving?

That is mechanics; you were referring to chemical energy in your comment on the other thread. Potential chemical energy includes the energy stored in chemical bonds, such as in jet fuel. This can be released rapidly or slowly - which is why an airliner can fly for 13 hours without the tanks exploding, and which is why a fire fed by such fuel can burn for weeks.

[kelpdiver 2]

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>not much, why?

You made a statement earlier:

"Considering the the black box data has recently shown that the flight deck door was never opened during flight . . ."

Which model FDR was it? What was the sampling period for that sensor? Had that particular FDR _ever_ recorded an open cockpit door in all its time of operation?

The more important question: how did they get this flight recorder if it never actually hit the Pentagon, as seems to be the claim of the day?

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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>not much, why?

You made a statement earlier:

"Considering the the black box data has recently shown that the flight deck door was never opened during flight . . ."

Which model FDR was it? What was the sampling period for that sensor? Had that particular FDR _ever_ recorded an open cockpit door in all its time of operation?

The more important question: how did they get this flight recorder if it never actually hit the Pentagon, as seems to be the claim of the day?

Magic

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[rhys 0]

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Let me ask you, what do you believe happened at the Pentagon? Was it an aircraft, a missile, a bomb, what is it you think happened there?

I don't know, you know why?

there is not enough evidence to believe any of the, stories.

there was never a criminal investgation so I can't make a reasonable decision that I am certain of.

As far as the pentsagon is concerned, there is no vald hypothesis.

The only people that know for sure, are the people tht have seen the images (the many images) that are being with held from the public by the US government.

Only when they come clean with all the evidence they hold, can ANYONE be sure of what happened there that day.

You may believe in evaporating aircraft, i do not.

Now I have a question, what is to be gained by withholding the security footage?

If in fact, if the official story is correct, how would showing images to confirm it to be true, be a threat to nationall security?

Why the secrecy.

The strong opposition to the Us government in regards to this would be crushed with the images of a plane crashing into the building, until they come clean, we have to assume thay are hiding something.

Nothing, is gained form the secrecy. expept in the case of a cover up.

You should demand transparency, so you can rest assured that you are in fact correct.

Until then you are simply taking thier word.

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No, Rhys, that's not what I said. I said that the CIT are liars, not the people that they spoke to.

But the people they spoke to said they saw the aircrafty approach from the north, and the story you believe, says it approached from the south?

how can you be correct as well as them?

I don't know who to believe, but until I seel an image of a commercial jet there, I will not believe what we have been told, There is no evidence in the damage to suggest a commercial jet of those proportions crashed there, period!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[SpeedRacer 1]

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There is no evidence in the damage to suggest a commercial jet of those proportions crashed there, period!

For the third time: WHAT ABOUT THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS OF AIRPLANE WRECKAGE AT THE PENTAGON???

Speed Racer
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[rhys 0]

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Perhaps the same reason that I (and many solar installers) do not always follow Article 690 of NFPA 70 strictly. It doesn't cover every situation, and it is not reasonable to expect that we install less safe/less effective systems to follow the letter of the law. Indeed, inspectors recognize this, and often impose their own (local) requirements that amend or replace parts of Article 690.

So you say bending the rules is O.K. if the investigators feel it is relevant to the situaton?

I can gostraight through a red light if there is no cars coming and it is the middle of the night?

The spend 10's of millions of dollars on an investigtion of a fire that essentially killed around 3000 people and they 'refuse' to look for any type of explosives as pointed out by the guideline? even when evidence of such properties is presented to them in a peer reviewed scientific journal?

you find that reasonable?

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That is mechanics; you were referring to chemical energy in your comment on the other thread. Potential chemical energy includes the energy stored in chemical bonds, such as in jet fuel. This can be released rapidly or slowly - which is why an airliner can fly for 13 hours without the tanks exploding, and which is why a fire fed by such fuel can burn for weeks.

You said, 'energy has nothing to do with it' be it potential energy, kinteic enrgy or whatever energy.

s far as 9/11 is concerned, energy has everything to do with it, so can you clarify to us whatyou meant by the statement "energy has nothing to do with it", you nevdr specified what type of energy you were referring to in the first place, so don't change your statement please.

You talk tome and other as if we are stupid, yet you throw ctatements such as that around and blow them off as if they were correct.

maybe it was a typo or you forgot to mention something bu,t energy has everything to do with it and your statment is idiotic.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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For the third time: WHAT ABOUT THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS OF AIRPLANE WRECKAGE AT THE PENTAGON???

Show me a photograph of the 'wreckage' at the pentagon and substanciate it with a photo of a wreckage of similar qualities that did not occur on 9/11.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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The more important question: how did they get this flight recorder if it never actually hit the Pentagon, as seems to be the claim of the day?

the same way they found the 'fire and damage proof' passport in manhattan and the bandana of the same qualities in the pentago i suppose.

The plane made of metal is detroyed boyod recognition but the bandana is hardly scathed at all.

that is majic isn't it!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[SpeedRacer 1]

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For the third time: WHAT ABOUT THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS OF AIRPLANE WRECKAGE AT THE PENTAGON???

Show me a photograph of the 'wreckage' at the pentagon and substanciate it with a photo of a wreckage of similar qualities that did not occur on 9/11.

the photos were in my youtube link.

edited to add one pic.

Speed Racer
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[normiss 622]

Find us another event where an aircraft of that size dead-ended into an immovable object at 450mph.


Off the top of my head, the only non-911 crash that immediately comes to mind is Payne Stewart's Lear Jet crash. NOTHING there resembles an aircraft.
Yet it was.

[kelpdiver 2]

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The more important question: how did they get this flight recorder if it never actually hit the Pentagon, as seems to be the claim of the day?

the same way they found the 'fire and damage proof' passport in manhattan and the bandana of the same qualities in the pentago i suppose.

The plane made of metal is detroyed boyod recognition but the bandana is hardly scathed at all.

that is majic isn't it!

Uh, the flight recorder was being held up as truther evidence. There's no reason for Bush/JewCo planners to make it available to say the doors never opened.

SpeedRacer already told you there were pics of plane parts, but now you will only believe them if we crash another plane into the pentagon and take pictures.

Oh right, whenever the facts get confusing, it must be a false conspiracy theory planted by BJco.

[billvon 2,406]

>So you say bending the rules is O.K. if the investigators feel it is
>relevant to the situaton?

Yes. If, for example, there's a section in the rules that requires you account for all the lifeboats after an accident, it would be safe to ignore that - since there were no lifeboats involved.

>I can gostraight through a red light if there is no cars coming and it
>is the middle of the night?

No. But it would also be silly to wait at a light until you die of starvation. If you decided after, say, 24 hours that you should go through it (provided of course that there were no cars coming) that would be a defensible position.

>s far as 9/11 is concerned, energy has everything to do with it, so
>can you clarify to us whatyou meant by the statement "energy has
>nothing to do with it"

Sure. You said:

"So (according to NIST) the jet fuel makes a massive explosion on initial impact, a significant amount exits the buildings (more so in one than the other), the fire heats and weakens the structure after heating the core columns for some time and then still has enough enrgy to burn at such temeratures for weeks in a oxygen starved environment."

Energy has nothing to do with that. I could come up with a device that would allow such temperatures for years with 10,000 gallons of fuel. Energy refers to the amount of STORED energy; power is the release of that energy. (In combustion, power and heat are pretty interchangeable.)

So if you increase the amount of power released (i.e. start a fire in a structure with good ventilation and chimneys to allow draft effects to increase oxygen flow) a tremendous amount of heat is generated. In such cases a fire might consume thousands of gallons of fuel an hour.

Then if you reduce the power released (i.e. reduce the oxygen available) combustion slows down. Power is reduced, heat is reduced and the fuel lasts a long time. Indeed, there are cases where oxygen-starved fired have burned for _decades._

In both cases, heat released depends on power, which is the rate of energy release, not the potential energy itself.

To use an example you may be more familiar with, thermite actually has less energy content than jet fuel on a gallon to gallon basis - but it can release it more rapidly, which makes it more useful in welding and cutting applications. I suspect, though, you will not argue that thermite could not have possibly destroyed the building since it has less energy than jet fuel.

>You talk tome and other as if we are stupid . . .your statment is idiotic.

Pot, meet kettle.

[SpeedRacer 1]

Discussion of the Flight 77 debris at the Pentagon by aerospace engineer:

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0265.shtml

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0290.shtml

Speed Racer
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[Belgian_Draft 0]

Would you care to respond to my question about the orange/red glowing aluminum or are you going to ignore facts?

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[rhys 0]

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Which model FDR was it? What was the sampling period for that sensor? Had that particular FDR _ever_ recorded an open cockpit door in all its time of operation?

Considering the the data clearly says FLT DECK DOOR and has the relevant data with it, it would answer your second queston, it is there for you to see, and it was aquired from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) through the Freedom Of Information Act.

This page has all the relevant links and downloads.

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You can download the data from our pinned topics section in the AA77 forum, the above OP or if you dont want to wade through all the parameters, i have copy/pasted only the FLT DECK DOOR parameter, side by side with the Clock into a new csv file and uploaded at the megaupload link above.

For those who do not want to scroll through 1.5 hours of flight, just click Edit/Find on your spreadsheet and type in OPEN, click find. Its not there. The door was closed for the entire flight according to the data.

Also, i cross checked this with Capt Ralph Kolstad who flew the 757 with American just to make sure their 757's have a sensor for when the door is open. They have an overhead button to push to open the flight deck door. The button lights up when the door is open. There is a sensor on the door...

...Finally, I also know that Pilots for 9/11 Truth has found MANY inconsistencies within this FDR derived data that strongly suggest (in brief) that the aircraft from which it came could NOT have impacted the Pentagon -- and, thus, that the FDR is a planted, fake piece of evidence. These numerous inconsistencies have been the subject of many of the Pilots for Truth presentations generated over the past three years.

if you don't believe him then maybe try doing some research of your own.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[DanG 1]

So they planted fake FDR data, but failed to mark a couple door readings OPEN? And, apparently, also failed to make the recordings match the flight path of the plane.

Either these people are criminal masterminds, or they are totally incompetent. Which is it?

- Dan G