Amazon 7 #126 January 22, 2009 I know you cant deny it.. stopping all AA does nothing but allow the sexism and racism that benefits YOU to continue in perpetuity. The alternative is to make changes that will allow ALL people to benefit from a LACK of further sexism...racism How do YOU propose to get a world where everyone has the same access to jobs and education when doing absolutly nothing as you and Marc and the other "conservatives" only benefits those who currently are nearly the sole beneficiaries. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #127 January 22, 2009 By not giving a rat's ass about another person's race/sex (with the obvious non-platonic exception) I'm already there. Catch up whenever you like! You'll have to end your support of racial discrimination in order to get here, though. Congrats again. Many accolades and kudos to you for stating what you support. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #128 January 22, 2009 Accolades and kudos to you for your support of the status quo and the racism and sexism and homophobia as it exists where you work.. Well done;. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #129 January 22, 2009 Odd. I can't find race and sex keeping people down where I work. Perhaps you could elaborate on that a bit. Perhaps it's because I don't care what color or sex anyone is when it comes to work. Then again, I suppose you HAVE to care about race and sex if you use them as discriminators, as you've admitted you do. That's so nice you admit what you support. I really think it just dandy. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #130 January 22, 2009 QuoteI know you cant deny it.. stopping all AA does nothing but allow the sexism and racism that benefits YOU to continue in perpetuity. The alternative is to make changes that will allow ALL people to benefit from a LACK of further sexism...racism How do YOU propose to get a world where everyone has the same access to jobs and education when doing absolutly nothing as you and Marc and the other "conservatives" only benefits those who currently are nearly the sole beneficiaries. You cant support ending discrimination if you support/practice it. Cant happen. (oh, and I am talking about your position)"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #131 January 22, 2009 Come on Admiral Anvil.. I know you are familiar with DOD policies concerning women in combat oriented jobs... if not.. gee perhaps you do support that type of discrimination. How about the thousands of service members who have served our country honorably and usually with distinction but are constantly under persecution by the DOD investigative branches.. even IF they have not told... they are CERTAINLY being asked. I think both policies are shamefull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #132 January 23, 2009 What a nice fantasy world in which you live. At least you've admitted that you support racial discrimination. What a standout you are! Those AA supporters that can't, as I've often stated, are nothing but cowards. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #133 January 23, 2009 The hole in the argument of those arguing so forcefully … essentially arguing against Jeanne … is that the arguments fail to acknowledge negative discrimination against minorities and women persists. While no longer legally permissible (almost completely) and much, much, much less prominent than even 25 years ago, negative discrimination against minorities and women persist. To pretend otherwise is akin pretending skydiving can’t kill you. It’s not about looking for it, either. One example posted here three years ago. Less anecdotally: Measuring Racial Discrimination Market Forces and Sex Discrimination The Color of Credit: Mortgage Discrimination, Research Methodology, and Fair-lending Enforcement Employers’ Discriminatory Behavior and the Estimation of Wage Discrimination Trait-based and sex-based discrimination in occupational prestige, occupational salary, and hiring Pervasive Prejudice?: Unconventional Evidence of Race and Gender Discrimination Department of Defense Annual Report on Sexual Harassment and Violence at the U.S. Military Service Academies: Academic Program Year 2006-2007 Racial harassment, job satisfaction and intentions to remain in the military … (that data, published on 2008, reports that “two thirds of [minoirty] active-duty military personnel report experiencing offensive racial behaviors in the previous 12 months, whereas approximately one in ten reports threatening racial incidents or career-related discrimination. Furthermore, threatening racial incidents and career-related discrimination heighten intentions to leave the military.” Forget a justice or "fairness" argument, from a fiscal perspective losing one highly trained soldier, sailor, airman, or Marine because of racism is expensive! Stubbornly refusing to admit/acknowledge residual racism & sexism persist is like Pres Clinton and the definition of “is.” You can’t pretend negative discrimination against minorities and women doesn’t exist with any more credibly than he could pretend fellatio wasn’t sex. Of course, both of you (him and a more general “you”) may try. Thomas Barnett made one of the strongest arguments, imo, for decreasing discrimination against women in Blue Print for Action, the follow-up to _The Pentagon’s New Map_: “You want to decrease terrorism? Educate girls” (p. 256-257). In order to integrate into the functioning core of the world, the non-integrating states need to recognize the value of half of their human capital. If half of a nation’s population is unable to work to their full potential and contribute to the economy because of pervasive and tacit limitations/discrimination, that country looses. Phenomenon has been observed directly: The role of women in economic miracles. As the market becomes more globalized and competitive, tacit negative discrimination against women and minorities is going to disadvantage the US. Sadly, I suspect it had to be a man, Barnett, making the argument … because reality (regardless of the way I would like the world to work) is that a man making the argument is stronger than 100 women making the argument. Someday that may not be so. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #134 January 23, 2009 QuoteI know you cant deny it.. stopping all AA does nothing but allow the sexism and racism that benefits YOU to continue in perpetuity. My reasoning for opposing affirmative is multi-faceted. For me in working through and weighing the ethical arguments, the sides to which the scales of justice tilt varies from high ethics (normative ethics/ideals) to applied ethics. It’s in the backlash innuendos and consequences that perpetuate doubt on the capabilities of minorities and women in which I find the crucial argument against affirmative action. (One could speculate that those who are most likely to cast doubt that “he only got there because they needed a minority” or “she was included only because they needed a woman candidate,” are probably the same ones explicitly or tacitly perpetuating the persistent negative discrimination against minorities &/or women?) What I quoted above is reasonable argument, if there weren't tipping points. Tipping points come in a variety of different forms, imo -- getting enough women in a field so that they're no longer exceptions/exceptional, getting enough men in a field to the point at which they're grandfathers and they get annoyed at the discrimination their granddaughters face (that was the method at Stanford's SLAC), etc. In the end, I don't support race- or sex-based affirmative action hiring or promotion. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #135 January 23, 2009 As far as the affirmative action argument, iirc a thread here a few months ago failed to bring forth any (?) affirmative action programs remaining. Public colleges can’t do it. The federal government doesn’t do it in hiring. The State of Georgia doesn’t in hiring. Private organizations & individuals can to some extent, just as private organizations & individuals can discriminate to some extent, e.g., Augusta Golf Club. How much is it just another strawman? There’s seems to be lot of confusion, misconceptions, and mis-information about what remains of affirmative action, especially regarding federal preferences. W/r/t minority preferences federally, most recently (literally less than 2 months ago) a federal court declared unconstitutional a DoD program that gave an optional (i.e., non-mandated) contracting preference to a minority-owned business. Rothe Development Corp of Texas challenged the Air Force’s decision to re-compete and award a contract to another company, International Computer Telecommunications, which offered a bid $180k higher than Rothe Corp. ICT is an Asian-owned company and, perhaps ironically, a woman owns the litigant, Rothe. The only two agencies to have formal preferences for women-owned businesses are the small-business administration and Dept of Transportation. “Preferences.” That sounds like a big deal. Sounds like an advantage. “Woman-Owned Business" is not on the list of entities currently receiving procurement preferences on prime contracts. For prime contracts who do get preferences: If the woman happens to be a Service Disabled Veteran, or if the company qualifies for HUBZONE Certification, or 8(a) or SDB Certification, then the business may get those preferences. There is a goal, typically around 5% – *not* a requirement -- for contracting with woman-owned businesses but no preference. How about that SBA 8(m) “preference”? The law was passed in 2000 … but there was no action by the Executive Branch to incorporate that law into regulatory frameworks. A “final rule” was never issued. Therefore no preferences. Contracting is done through Executive Agencies. Congress didn’t object. There are procurement regulations that call for “goals established in the agency's annual small business preference plan for small, small disadvantaged, 8(a), and women-owned small businesses,” – here’s one from the USDA “Goals.” Try to find something on consequences for failing to fulfill those goals. Now one may see words like “women and minorities highly encouraged to apply,” but there is no requirement that the funding agency or hiring agency *act* on it. As a woman in a science field, a physical science field, I remember hearing rumors, derisive allegations, and condescending hearsay about “all the affirmative action programs” for women in science. If someone can find one, please point me toward it. Really! Of course, we’ve probably all heard occasional stories about that “bitch” who got the job because she was a women … apparently that’s one of those remarkable exceptions to the call for personal responsibility. It’s never the guy who didn’t get the job’s fault or bad luck or responsibility … it’s some or some . VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #136 January 23, 2009 So basically we are stuck in the good ole boy world. Great!!!!! Yes its less now than it was then... but I still see it and feel it That should give great little warm fuzzies to those who proclaim they are not racists or sexists (FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE)and go on hiring the guys who look like them and they feel comfortable working with. It also will ensure that their daughters and granddaughters will get to feel the same frustration. I guess they should bring em up right to find a man to support them and never even think about expanding her mind or her opportunities.. because it might threaten some mans ego. I have been a part of hiring portions of my teams in the past and have given a set of questions with very definitive answers to them. Personally I have yet to hire anyone based on race or sex. I have hired the most qualified person. USUALLY my choices have always been very good for the company, but it has been my personal observation that the minorities and the women I have hired have been far more willing to go above and beyond to prove themselves and to be successful. So the status quo... means those who are used to the power.. those who have always gotten the breaks will continue to do so.. no matter how "normal" they are. Personally I want those who are exceptional working with me... not the mediocrity of the normal good ole boys that don’t have to try to excel to make it in the world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gene03 0 #137 January 23, 2009 Quote Hell, and I thought the shoes were sticking to the floor from the surgar coated coverage but know I realize it is from the orgasmic body fluids spewed everywhere Amen, I'm just glad they didn't have any fireworks.“The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with him. Stanislaw Jerzy Lec quotes (Polish writer, poet and satirist 1906-1966) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #138 January 23, 2009 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuDUT5hsp6I Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #139 January 23, 2009 Tomnorrow is going to be a pretty bad day for a couple white guys with low performance numbers.....grade C former students who have continued to perform up to their rather low expectations of life. I am going to promote a young woman who gets there earlier and works twice as hard as the socially inept oafs.in fact I think she needs to be the new team lead for her hard work and attention to detail... I also have a couple new people who are more qualified and will probably do a much better job and are needed as well .I am more comfortable working with very smart asain men who will listen and strive to succeed.. I think I will give them a shot too before I leave this contract. Thank you for helping me to decide what to do with this dilema. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #140 January 23, 2009 To repeat; If you practice something you continue it, exacerbate it, confirm it, give it credence. You are looking at this subject with emotion not common sense. You must feel guilt for the deeds done decades ago."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #141 January 23, 2009 Nope... wrong yet again.. BUT I am certainly a product of my experiences. I will just have to give more credence to YOUR way of thinking... and fire the people who are under achievers and who dont "fit in" to the group and retain the BEST QUALIFIED and hardest working. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #142 January 23, 2009 QuoteNope... wrong yet again.. BUT I am certainly a product of my experiences. I will just have to give more credence to YOUR way of thinking... and fire the people who are under achievers and who dont "fit in" to the group and retain the BEST QUALIFIED and hardest working. What you practice will remain. period"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #143 January 23, 2009 I bet you would be good with ideological based hiring decisions too... the people you support certainly do... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/23/AR2008062301796.html High-ranking political appointees at the Justice Department labored to stock a prestigious hiring program with young conservatives in a five-year-long attempt to reshape the department's ranks, according to an inspector general's report to be released today. The report will trace the effort to 2002, early in the Bush administration, when key advisers to then-Attorney General John D. Ashcroft moved to exert more control over the program to hire rookie lawyers and summer interns, according to two people familiar with the probe. It is what it is. Pesonally I do not use such criteria when hiring anyone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,129 #144 January 23, 2009 QuoteI only want to know why it is different for Obama this time around. Same reason more value is given to a gold medal in the Olympic Games than a gold medal in the Special Olympics.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #145 January 23, 2009 Quote Quote I only want to know why it is different for Obama this time around. Same reason more value is given to a gold medal in the Olympic Games than a gold medal in the Special Olympics.... I think you're giving Bush too much credit with that analogy. www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #146 January 23, 2009 wow you two are still going at it? www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #148 January 23, 2009 Quote Tomnorrow is going to be a pretty bad day for a couple white guys employees with low performance numbers.....grade C former students who have continued to perform up to their rather low expectations of life. I am going to promote a young woman an employee who gets there earlier and works twice as hard as the socially inept oafs. in fact I think she this employee needs to be the new team lead for her their hard work and attention to detail... I also have a couple new people who are more qualified and will probably do a much better job and are needed as well .I am more comfortable working with very smart asain men employees who will listen and strive to succeed.. I think I will give them a shot too before I leave this contract. Thank you for helping me to decide what to do with this dilema. Sounds like good decisions as long as gender and race aren't factors clouding or influencing your judgement as it doesn't sound like a tie. Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #149 January 23, 2009 Just applying the same litmus tests others here are using... and claiming they dont. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
