Nova's judgment day: Intelligent design on trial

[philh 0]

Thanks for your honest reply.
I might hazard a guess at what you are doing. Its called confirmation bias. I would definitley reccomed reading about this maybe try the book Kluge by Gary Marcus or look up "confirmation bias" on wikipedia. Basically you have a preconcieved belief and you hunt around for anything to confirm it. A more honest enquiry tries to disprove your ideas, rather than prove them. Thats what scientists do.


"The main reason? I cannot accept we're just simply a product of millions of years of evolution, live our lives as best we can, then just die. To me that's ridiculous."

This is called the argument from perosnal increduility and its a well known logical fallacy. i think you would learn a lot if you took a look at the skeptis guide to the universe list of logical fallacies:

http://www.theskepticsguide.org/logicalfallacies.asp


"Do you even doubt he's dead? There are countless factors indicating your friend is dead, but have you seen that he's dead with your own eyes? It probably wouldn't enter your mind to question whether he's dead or not in normal circumstances. So you believe something, without any direct proof or evidence. "

You are making a huge mistaker in making any comparison between "seeing with your own eyes" and evidence. A lot of evidence is indirect, no jury ever saw a murder take place that doesnt mean they have no evidence to convict. Its the same in science . We have huge amounts of evidence for evolution why dont you google "talk origins" and take a look?

[pirana 0]

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Pity we don't have proof of extra-terrestrial life to support your statement. Still, of course life had to happen, considering God put into place the elements for it to.

Or maybe the Easter Bunny. Any rabbit that can lay eggs can sure as heck make a universe.

Don't be ridiculous. He doesn't lay the eggs. Where do you get your information? The Easter Bunny is just a pass-thru; with a little value add with the nice colors.

Chickens lay the eggs; Easter Bunny collects, boils, colors, and distributes them. Says so in this book my kids have. And it has pictures. Well, drawings anyway. And I'm just assuming on the boiling.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[vortexring 0]

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Thanks for your honest reply.
I might hazard a guess at what you are doing. Its called confirmation bias. I would definitley reccomed reading about this maybe try the book Kluge by Gary Marcus or look up "confirmation bias" on wikipedia. Basically you have a preconcieved belief and you hunt around for anything to confirm it. A more honest enquiry tries to disprove your ideas, rather than prove them. Thats what scientists do.

That's a fair assumption, that could be coupled with the 'Ad ignorantiam' fallacy - almost. You're certainly more right than wrong, but I think you've not taken into account why I have my beliefs. That's probably more my fault as I don't normally explain why. And I won't - everyone might laugh at me! Besides, how can I confirm what can't be confirmed? Further to that, 'hunting around' brings far stronger arguments making God seem less likely. Remember I certainly have doubts myself, but what my beliefs are remain relatively the same. Maybe that's where my puzzle lies.

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"The main reason? I cannot accept we're just simply a product of millions of years of evolution, live our lives as best we can, then just die. To me that's ridiculous."

This is called the argument from perosnal increduility and its a well known logical fallacy. i think you would learn a lot if you took a look at the skeptis guide to the universe list of logical fallacies:

http://www.theskepticsguide.org/logicalfallacies.asp

That's a great link! Perhaps my statement will always be nothing more than a logical fallacy in the cold light of rational logic; but to me the reverse seems to also apply when people say the same of God's non-existence.

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"Do you even doubt he's dead? There are countless factors indicating your friend is dead, but have you seen that he's dead with your own eyes? It probably wouldn't enter your mind to question whether he's dead or not in normal circumstances. So you believe something, without any direct proof or evidence. "

You are making a huge mistaker in making any comparison between "seeing with your own eyes" and evidence. A lot of evidence is indirect, no jury ever saw a murder take place that doesnt mean they have no evidence to convict. Its the same in science . We have huge amounts of evidence for evolution why dont you google "talk origins" and take a look?

I'm a believer in regards to evolution! I just think God started the whole thing off. Maybe our knowledge of the Universe at the moment isn't quite as good as we might think. Maybe we're literally just beginning to scratch at the immeasurably deep layer of knowledge we need to fully understand it.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[jakee 1,255]

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It makes some kind of sense to me that The Easter Bunny wasn't created, and put into place the recipe for Chocolate Eggs. The main reason? I cannot accept Chocolate Eggs are just simply a product of millions of years of kitchen evolution, making our deserts as best we can, then just dying. To me that's ridiculous. Just as stating that the Easter Bunny doesn't exist sounds ridiculous. People sometimes don't believe in the Easter Bunny as there's no solid evidence he exists, yet there is no solid evidence to say he doesn't exist.

Is there solid evidence that Unicorns don't exist? Pixies? Leprechauns? The land of Faerie? Death, the big bony dude with a scythe? Is there solid evidence that any made up supernatural being doesn't exist? Think on that, and you may see why that argument doesn't carry any weight.

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The arguments mentioned apparantly come from a more detailed philosphical study which the website had said they'd simplified.

More detailed probably just means more wordy. The central argument should be the same, and the central argument sucks.

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Imagine a close friend is killed in a foreign country. You attend his funeral. Afterwards, despite having not seen your friends dead body, do you still believe he's alive? Do you even doubt he's dead? There are countless factors indicating your friend is dead, but have you seen that he's dead with your own eyes? It probably wouldn't enter your mind to question whether he's dead or not in normal circumstances. So you believe something, without any direct proof or evidence.

First of all, I've had other friends die. I've seen dead people and I know that death happens (it's a fairly well documented process), which automatically makes my friends death a plausible scenario.

Secondly, what evidence do I have that he's dead? Has someone simply told me he's dead and that's it, or is there corroborating evidence like news stories, photos, the testimony of other people who were there etc? As mentioned, seeing with your own eyes isn't the only form of evidence.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[philh 0]

Im glad you liked the link, i cant reccomend their podcast high enough, you can listen to it here:

http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive.asp

It will really sharpen your mind.

As to god's non existence. I and most of the famous ahtiests I have read (Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris etc) do not claim one can prove that god does not exist. However what we do claim is that whilst the statements "one cannot prove god existst" and "one cannot prove god does not exist" are both true they are not of equal weight. Why not? The reason is simple, there is an endless list of things one might imagine that we cannot prove do not exist , an invisible unicorn, fairies, Thor, the Easter Bunny etc etc. You cannot prove that any of these things dont exist but that doesnt mean we treat claims of their existence seriously. We should take seriously all claims in proprtion to the evidence for them. Where is there is no evidence we should have no belief.

[vortexring 0]

Well, you might see God as being just as likely as unicorns and the Easter bunny as one can't prove they don't exist (I recognize the point!), but I reckon it's not much of a point. Are there numerous churches which specialize in the worship of unicorns? Do millions of people throughout the world make a Hajj like pilgrimage for unicorns, and so on.

Whether you believe in God or not, it's too flippant to put him into the same league as Easter bunnies.

If you don't believe in God through all the rational and logical reasons you've considered, why do people, of greater intelligence and experience than yourself continue to do so?

Seriously, I'd be interested to read of why most of humanity throughout history has made what you see as a rather heinous error of judgement.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[jakee 1,255]

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Are there numerous churches which specialize in the worship of unicorns? Do millions of people throughout the world make a Hajj like pilgrimage for unicorns, and so on.

Consider how many people throughout history have seriously, seriously believed in Pixies. Or Djinns. Or Tree Spirits. All of these were, at one time (and to an extent still are) objects of real belief for an awful lot of people. Does that make you view them as more likely to exist?

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If you don't believe in God through all the rational and logical reasons you've considered, why do people, of greater intelligence and experience than yourself continue to do so?

Seriously, I'd be interested to read of why most of humanity throughout history has made what you see as a rather heinous error of judgement.

You've already said it yourself, several times, in this thread. You need to believe. You "cannot accept" that God does not exist. There are a lot of people out there just like you who need that safety net.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Pity we don't have proof of extra-terrestrial life to support your statement. Still, of course life had to happen, considering God put into place the elements for it to.

Or maybe the Easter Bunny. Any rabbit that can lay eggs can sure as heck make a universe.

Don't be ridiculous. He doesn't lay the eggs. Where do you get your information? The Easter Bunny is just a pass-thru; with a little value add with the nice colors.

Chickens lay the eggs; Easter Bunny collects, boils, colors, and distributes them. Says so in this book my kids have. And it has pictures. Well, drawings anyway. And I'm just assuming on the boiling.

Well, your book is wrong! My book says the Easter Bunny lays the eggs already colored and my book is right.
I think I know which book you have. Well, Buster, my book has pictures too but mine have captions!

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[vortexring 0]

Djinns or Tree Spirits weren't believed to the same extent as some form of God throughout mankinds history.

I don't need to believe. I take interest in learning peoples reasoning into why they don't believe in God. I may come across as being completely closed to the idea he may not exist but that isn't true. I regularly read of fine arguments which are 'Anti-God' rather than 'Pro-God'. Perhaps one day I might completely reconsider my beliefs, and become angry, rude and annoyed when I read of people believing in God. . .

I doubt I ever will though. I can't put my particular beliefs down to the comfort of a safety net, nor most of mankinds either. If it was that simple, we wouldn't have people like yourself then, would we?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[beowulf 1]

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Djinns or Tree Spirits weren't believed to the same extent as some form of God throughout mankinds history.

The extent that people believe in something has no effect on the valididity of their belief nor does the number of people lend in anymore credibility.

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Perhaps one day I might completely reconsider my beliefs, and become angry, rude and annoyed when I read of people believing in God. . .

I don't think anyone here has been angry or rude in this discussion. Do you characterize all atheists this way?

[vortexring 0]

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I don't think anyone here has been angry or rude in this discussion. Do you characterize all atheists this way?

How could I, if none of them have been angry or rude in this discussion?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[beowulf 1]

You could disagree with my assesment that no one has been rude or angry. Right?

Your post implied that all people who don't think the way you do are rude and angry.

[philh 0]

That's a good question.
The first point is we probably all agree the majority of humanity has got it wrong on religion.
Consider these stats on world religions (by population) found on Wikipedia:

1Christianity 1.9 billion
2 Islam 1.1 billion
3 Hinduism 781 million
4 Buddhism 324 million
5 Sikhism 19 million
6 Judaism 14 million
7 Bahá'í Faith 6.1 million
8 Confucianism 5.3 million
9 Jainism 4.9 million
10 Shinto 2.8 million


The world population I believ is just over 6 billion. So even if youa are a Christian then you must believe that the vast majority of the world is wrong. So its a fact that by far the majority of the world's population is not Christian, nor are they Muslim, nor are they Hindus, nor are they Budhist. So we all agree its possible for the majority of the people to get it wrong.

Ask yourself do people believe what they do becuase of a careful consideration of the evidence or do they have their beliefs because they have inherited them? If its becuase they've carefully considered them your question may have some weight, but if its becuase they've simply inherited them without thinking about it , then it has little weight.

How do we tell? well we can look at the geographical distribution of religion. If people arrive at their religious conclusions due to careful cosnideration we might expect religious views to be distributed randomly, some Americans might be Muslims, others Chrisitan, others atheist for example. However that's not what we find, what we find is the what you believe is very largely driven by where you were born. If you were born in the USA you are likely to have Chritisna views, in the the MIddle East Musilm, in India Hindu etc. That implies the cultural theory of belief inherticance is correct. People have not carefully considred their religious views they'e simply got them form their parents.

Furthermore people tend to believ what suits them , not what's true. The view that there is life after death is very comforting , that alone could keep religion alive, apart from the fact many religions arent exactly tolerant of non belivers. What we want to believe will have a big influence on what we do believe, but it has no bearing whatsoever on what is actually true.

One last thing; most scientists in the 19th century believed in something called the aether, there were very good reasons to believe it existed. However it turned out that the aether didnt exist, Einstiens theory of reltativity made it redundant and superflous. The lesson : even when you have good reasons to believe something exists does not mean it actually does. The only way to decide such issue is testable evidence.

[frequentfaller 0]

OK i was trying to figure out how to label my non belief. Am I atheist or agnostic? I do what every sinner does I got down on my knees and prayed to google. (agooglest?). It sent me to about.com. which told me I am an agnostic atheiest. Interesting read about atheist vs agnostic. It said there are agnostic theists and agnostic atheists

Born ok 1st time.

[pirana 0]

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OK i was trying to figure out how to label my non belief. Am I atheist or agnostic? I do what every sinner does I got down on my knees and prayed to google. (agooglest?). It sent me to about.com. which told me I am an agnostic atheiest. Interesting read about atheist vs agnostic. It said there are agnostic theists and agnostic atheists

Phrysbertarian myself.

Soul got hung up on the barn roof and I can't get it down.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[jakee 1,255]

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Djinns or Tree Spirits weren't believed to the same extent as some form of God throughout mankinds history.

Oh, so there's a tipping point of quantity of belief that makes something plausible? Where do you put that tipping point, either in real numbers or as a percentage of population? (And I think you'd be surprised at how widespread belief in various forms of woodland/ nature spirits and Pixie/Djinn/Leprechaun/tricksters have been.)

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I don't need to believe.

However you want to phrase it, you've said that you cannot accept that God doesn't exist. That's an absolute phrasing, that indicates that you feel that way regardless of reason, logic or evidence. You ask why so many other people believe in God; you are your own answer.

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I doubt I ever will though. I can't put my particular beliefs down to the comfort of a safety net, nor most of mankinds either. If it was that simple, we wouldn't have people like yourself then, would we?

Nope, that doesn't follow at all. Just because most people want/ need a safety net doesn't mean that atheists can't exist, in exactly the same way that just because most people would never jump of a cliff it doesn't stop me from enjoying BASE.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[FallloutboyDAoC 0]

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Well, you might see God as being just as likely as unicorns and the Easter bunny as one can't prove they don't exist (I recognize the point!), but I reckon it's not much of a point. Are there numerous churches which specialize in the worship of unicorns? Do millions of people throughout the world make a Hajj like pilgrimage for unicorns, and so on.

Whether you believe in God or not, it's too flippant to put him into the same league as Easter bunnies.

If you don't believe in God through all the rational and logical reasons you've considered, why do people, of greater intelligence and experience than yourself continue to do so?

Seriously, I'd be interested to read of why most of humanity throughout history has made what you see as a rather heinous error of judgement.

Are you saying that just because millions of people believe god exists he has a greater chance of being real? Or since someone who has a high IQ believes in god, it is also true?

Also, do you only refer to the christian god as GOD? If we were the product of some higher life form's experiment sent to earth, would you consider them our gods?

[jclalor 12]

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813 (see Positive Atheism's Historical section)

[tkhayes 126]

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Seriously, I'd be interested to read of why most of humanity throughout history has made what you see as a rather heinous error of judgment.

OK, again, MOST of the world, at some time throughout history:
1. Thought lightning was angry Gods
2. thought the world was flat
3. thought black or colored people were inferior and/or incapable of learning
4. thought that the world was made of layers, earth, water, sky and fire,
5. etc. etc.

So excuse us if we question the 'rather heinous error of judgment' when we see it based on faith alone.

and I have no idea why people of greater intelligence than me continue to believe in Gods. But that does not make it so. But the wealth of knowledge that we have accumulated over the centuries, and the wealth of knowledge that we continue to accumulate definitely throw it into question.

And while science grows and progresses, replacing old theories with new ones as the evidence continues to change and support those new theories, religion continues to stomp out the same dogma over and over again.

'Belief' means absolutely nothing if indeed you are wrong.

gods, Easter bunnies, Santa Claus, and the green slimy monsters under my bed all come from the same place as far as I am concerned.

[caldefly 0]

this message is for kallend.
"I survived a low altitude canopy collision - will you be so lucky?

It was not luck that saved you, it was God desire to give you one more chance. If i was you i would be thanking him.

" THE SKY IS THE LIMIT "

[labrys 0]

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It was not luck that saved you, it was God desire to give you one more chance.

Ouch... be careful, Prof. You've been given your last chance by god. I'm guessing that's a lot like getting a "your one warning" from Billvon.

Owned by Remi #?

[caldefly 0]

One more chance out of maybe many more .... I never said it was the last one. Any way is up to you to beleive.
Blue skies to all

" THE SKY IS THE LIMIT "

[billvon 2,400]

> it was God desire to give you one more chance. If i was you i would be thanking him.

Careful! Too much of that christianity stuff and Allah may decide it's your time to go.

[caldefly 0]

Hey guys , i wish you all great jumps and thanks for the comments and opinions.
Any way
God Bless you .

" THE SKY IS THE LIMIT "

[labrys 0]

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Hey guys , i wish you all great jumps and thanks for the comments and opinions.

Same to you!

Owned by Remi #?