Obama wants $50B in loans released to carmakers

[Coreece 190]

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REALITY is that management SHOULD have stood up to unions, THAT was their job.

And apperently it is very possible to do so. American Axle suceeded in cutting wages by $10/hr and has set the starting wage to $10/hr opposed to $17-$21/hr. The only problem was that they didn't seem to have the leverage to do this until there was a significant threat to the company and jobs.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[TheAnvil 0]

Again - were management able to fire and lay off at will, thereby managing manpower as a company should, GM would not be in this situation. The unions are just as much to blame as management here. And now both are going to pay the price.

CEO salaries are between the CEO and the shareholders/board of directors. I could care less about them. Such wealth/class envy things have never been an issue for me.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[happythoughts 0]

GM and Ford management have been making decisions about models, labor, and financial plans. In most areas, wrong ones.

The Camry and the Accord sell.
Why not loan Toyota and Honda the money to buy GM and Ford? Let them hire American auto workers to make cars in Toyota plants. Same job, same town.

If there are companies that make money, then why reward failure?

Obviously, whatever they are doing is not working.

[Coreece 190]

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Why not loan Toyota and Honda the money to buy GM and Ford? Let them hire American auto workers to make cars in Toyota plants. Same job, same town.

If there are companies that make money, then why reward failure?

Obviously, whatever they are doing is not working.

I don't think we should give other countries our money because we AMERICANS are toooooo stupid/greedy to run a business. We are better than this and can make it work. I'd rather have a socialistic government before allowing/financing foreign companies to takeover all of our business....I think, it could just be American pride talking though.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[happythoughts 0]

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Why not loan Toyota and Honda the money to buy GM and Ford? Let them hire American auto workers to make cars in Toyota plants. Same job, same town.

If there are companies that make money, then why reward failure?

Obviously, whatever they are doing is not working.

I don't think we should give other countries our money because we AMERICANS are toooooo stupid to run a business. We are better than this and can make it work. I'd rather have a socialistic government before allowing foreign companies to takeover all of our business.

You mean like GM sells out US businesses?

GM had no problem outsourcing their IT work to India.
GM outsourcing

They do it to save money. So, I'll use their logic and buy the least expensive.

Right now, Detroit is screaming because it is their ox that is getting gored.

Let's face it, if they are going to continue to mismanage their companies in the fashion that brought them to this point, then we are only talking about postponing the inevitable.

Let's save the money and do something else with it.
They can start making the decisions that they will face in 4 years anyway and the taxpayers keep $50 billion.

I don't think that they woke up Nov 1st and said, "Dear me".
They've know about this for a while.

So, either they chose to avoid decisions or lack the capacity to make correct ones. Either way, I can't feel the need to bail them out.

[Coreece 190]

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So, I'll use their logic

Hasn't seemed to work for them...

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Let's face it, if they are going to continue to mismanage their companies in the fashion that brought them to this point, then we are only talking about postponing the inevitable.

I noticed you used the word..."IF"

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I can't feel the need to bail them out.

You will if we don't....but than it will be to late. Sorry to have to resort to fear...but as you know fear was designed to save lives.

I hope or government officials can realistically discern which option will cost the less in the long run and make a wise decision accordingly.

I think the main idea here is to keep the US auto industry running to take advantage of the demand for more practical vehicles and the opportunity to rebound. Restructuring will be imperative.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I don't think we should give other countries our money because we AMERICANS are toooooo stupid/greedy to run a business. We are better than this and can make it work. I'd rather have a socialistic government before allowing/financing foreign companies to takeover all of our business....I think, it could just be American pride talking though.

We Americans are giving other countries money (in the form of interest on T-bills) because we're too stupid to balance our budget.

In fiscal year 2008 we paid $451 BILLION dollars in inerest on the national debt.. 25% of our debt is in the hands of foreign countries meaning that we're already paying foreign countries over $100 BILLION a year for being stupid.

Paying the Japanese a small sum like $50B to take over the American car companies would be less than the annual expenditures we already send over seas for being stupid.

[Amazon 7]

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Again - were management able to fire and lay off at will, thereby managing manpower as a company should, GM would not be in this situation. The unions are just as much to blame as management here. And now both are going to pay the price.

CEO salaries are between the CEO and the shareholders/board of directors. I could care less about them. Such wealth/class envy things have never been an issue for me.

It certainly sounds like you support the wealthy and certainly have a glaring case of elitism in these posts Vinny

[Coreece 190]

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We Americans are giving other countries money (in the form of interest on T-bills) because we're too stupid to balance our budget.

In fiscal year 2008 we paid $451 BILLION dollars in inerest on the national debt.. 25% of our debt is in the hands of foreign countries meaning that we're already paying foreign countries over $100 BILLION a year for being stupid.

Paying the Japanese a small sum like $50B to take over the American car companies would be less than the annual expenditures we already send over seas for being stupid.

So we bailout the auto industry with money saved from future fiscal responsibility.

We're getting off subject by talking about giving money to companies that aren't asking for it.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[happythoughts 0]

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Let's face it, if they are going to continue to mismanage their companies in the fashion that brought them to this point, then we are only talking about postponing the inevitable.

I noticed you used the word..."IF"

You aren't actually stating confidence in their judgment.

If they were going to notice a problem and fix it, they would have taken some steps by now. So much for their history.

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I can't feel the need to bail them out.

You will if we don't....but than it will be to late. Sorry to have to resort to fear...but as you know fear was designed to save lives.

No, fear may cause a decision that would save a life.
It isn't necessarily a foregone conclusion.
People in deep water may panic and thrash around until they drown. GM is in pretty deep and their judgment suspect.

There is no cause-effect between aiding them and saving them.

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Restructuring will be imperative.

As you stated, you do understand that they will have to change their method of doing business.
That would mean - recognizing a problem and identifying a solution and implementing it.

Did they recognize a problem before?
Do they have a solution?
Why didn't they implement it before?

[Coreece 190]

>As you stated, you do understand that they
>will have to change their method of doing
>business. That would mean - recognizing a problem and identifying a >solution and implementing it.

>Did they recognize a problem before?

Some where recognized, some were not, others could not be forseen.

>Do they have a solution?

They're working on it with our government officials.

>Why didn't they implement it before?

Paralysis of Analysis.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[TheAnvil 0]

When you've realized that corporations exist to make a profit and not to provide jobs, get back to us.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[TheAnvil 0]

Japanese probably wouldn't keep the factory locations the same. They'd likely move them elsewhere were they to take over. I don't support loaning anyone any money to take these companies over. Let them declare bankruptcy and then let capitalism work.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[kallend 1,660]

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Again - were management able to fire and lay off at will, thereby managing manpower as a company should, GM would not be in this situation. The unions are just as much to blame as management here. And now both are going to pay the price.

CEO salaries are between the CEO and the shareholders/board of directors. I could care less about them. Such wealth/class envy things have never been an issue for me.

Right, you are an apologist for inept and incompetent management but never hesitate to blame workers for the ills of the economy.

Like to compare the MBA/engineer ratio of GM and Toyota?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TheAnvil 0]

Not at all, sir John. You really should read a bit more carefully. I blame management for their decisions. I blame unions for driving up labor costs and putting management into a hole with regards to managing its workforce.

You, in contrast, refuse to place any blame whatsoever on your beloved unions. Tsk tsk tsk.

When you're ready to face reality, please, by all means, get back to us.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[kallend 1,660]

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Not at all, sir John. You really should read a bit more carefully. I blame management for their decisions. I blame unions for driving up labor costs and putting management into a hole with regards to managing its workforce.

You, in contrast, refuse to place any blame whatsoever on your beloved unions. Tsk tsk tsk.

When you're ready to face reality, please, by all means, get back to us.

I fail to see why anyone but management should be blamed for MANAGEMENT'S failure to manage the corporation effectively.

Tsk tsk yourself for trying to place the blame for bad management on anyone but management, Prince Vinny.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,660]

According to estimates from normally reliable sources, if GM goes tango-uniform it will cost the taxpayer some $200 Billion to deal with the fallout.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gawain 0]

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According to estimates from normally reliable sources, if GM goes tango-uniform it will cost the taxpayer some $200 Billion to deal with the fallout.

If GM goes belly up, without any government assistance, how would that cost the taxpayer anything other than a record booking of unemployment benefits?

There would be no shortage of investors to buy up pieces of GM in the aftermath. Their European and global units would be just fine.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Coreece 190]

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If GM goes belly up, without any government assistance, how would that cost the taxpayer anything other than a record booking of unemployment benefits?

Where is the money gonna come from? Do you believe that the other employers should pick up the tab? do you believe that 3 million people should be kicked out onto the street with nothing? Michigan, Indiana, California, Missouri, New York, Ohio, South Carolina and Wisconsin are close to insolvency if not already.

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There would be no shortage of investors to buy up pieces of GM in the aftermath. Their European and global units would be just fine.

I don't know too many people that are eager to buy a car from a company that has gone tits up.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[billvon 2,450]

>how would that cost the taxpayer anything other than a record booking
>of unemployment benefits?

The economy would take another hit, as GM employees are laid off. Government revenue would take a hit as corporate tax income declines. Other businesses would suffer as they have to write off their loans/invoices to GM as losses; some of them would go out of business and lay off employees.

All this would mean another downward turn of the economy, and thus people would tend to lose money on their stock plans, take a hit in pay or even lose their jobs.

It may be that GM has to go under; they may no longer be competitive. But don't kid yourself that it would go unnoticed by the economy or by the people in it.

[Gawain 0]

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>how would that cost the taxpayer anything other than a record booking
>of unemployment benefits?

The economy would take another hit, as GM employees are laid off. Government revenue would take a hit as corporate tax income declines. Other businesses would suffer as they have to write off their loans/invoices to GM as losses; some of them would go out of business and lay off employees.

All this would mean another downward turn of the economy, and thus people would tend to lose money on their stock plans, take a hit in pay or even lose their jobs.

It may be that GM has to go under; they may no longer be competitive. But don't kid yourself that it would go unnoticed by the economy or by the people in it.

I don't dispute that, but at least they don't go belly up from a spending mandate.

UAW has already stated that they will give no concessions in this matter, so if I'm a political conservative, I have no reason to support a bailout. Therefore, let them go into bankruptcy and force a new labor agreement. GM has way, way too much pork to survive.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Coreece 190]

Here is a link to a 20-30 minute video of Ron Gettelfinger(UAW) and Rick Wagoner (GM)

It will give you an idea of their perspective and what they are prepared to tell Washington this week.

For those that think either of these guys run a business like drunks having a stoke, right click the video and change the play speed to slow. Its not your typical slow motion and is rather humorous.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/17993165/detail.html

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[tonyhays 86]

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I don't know too many people that are eager to buy a car from a company that has gone tits up.

Yet you are advocating that we, the taxpayer, do just that...

Oh, the irony!!

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[normiss 635]

Plenty of other companies have simply walked away from their pension plans and dumped them on the taxpayers.
American auto makers are going to have to do the same thing.
I don't believe foreign auto makers with plants in the US have this problem either.

[Coreece 190]

I don't know too many people that are eager to buy a car from a company that has gone tits up.

>Yet you are advocating that we, the taxpayer, do just that...

>Oh, the irony!!

Rubbish.....GM is still the #1 automaker worldwide and Chevy is the fastest growing car, all is not lost.....they're still tits down.

EDIT

I see where you got confused....let me explain.

Im talking about tits up meaning bankrupt.

Kallend reffered to bankrupt as "tango-uniform"
Gawain reffered to bankrupt as "belly up"
I referred to it as "tits up"

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...