Question for Gun Enthusiasts

[TomAiello 25]

This is meant as a practical question, not a debate. If you want to debate policy, please start another thread.

I think that we'll soon see another set of gun ban laws that make the Clinton era ban look pretty tame.

What things do you think ought to be purchased now, as they will be difficult/impossible to get ever again?

Any specific models of firearm? Large magazines? Ammunition? Suppressors? I've heard of ban plans for all of those.

I'm thinking of throwing some money into acquiring these items in the next month or two because;

(a) I think they'll become increasingly difficult to acquire in the future
(b) I think they are likely to increase in value (check out machine gun prices since 1987, for example)
(c) I'm a cantankerous son of a bitch, and the best way to make sure I want something is to tell me I can't have it

My first thought was to purchase a set of AK-47's and a few thousand rounds of ammo. I also considered finding a (legal) Mac-10, and some suppressors, but I'm concerned that the tax stamp amounts to a registration, and that such items might be subject to confiscation, since the feds keep records on them, which would lose my entire investment. I'm pretty much only looking for things that are likely to be banned.

Any gun collectors have some advice?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[NewGuy2005 51]

I don't think they will be more difficult to get. They've got much bigger fish to fry right now.

[AggieDave 6]

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Large magazines?

If you're referring to the ban on pistol magazines over 10rds from the previous ban, then yes, I would personally buy full capacity magazines for your weapons. If those are banned, you'll still be able to buy pre-ban stock, but look to pay $80-100 per mag!

(Side note: They are NOT "high capacity" magazines, they are full capacity magazines. Those 10rd mags sold during the ban were restricted capacity magazines.) Many people expect the same to happen with rifle magazines.

I know a good handful of people buying up AR-15s, FNP90s (and FN2000s), Scars and Sigs right now. This is figuring they will become banned because they look scary. Prices have already started to go up!

Some folks are simply buying a couple of AR lowers, since that *is* the firearms as far as the ATF is concerned and you can still get them for under $200 (and from a good manufacture). They plan to sell the lowers later or build out rifles on top of them.

If you can buy a silencer now, then you might as well. Get with your FFL and buy the tax stamp to go with it. You're right, tax stamps lead to paper trails. So do new gun purchases. There is concerned talk among the LEO community that they may be required to violate people's second amendment rights and confiscate legal firearms. Many have said they will walk away from their careers if that occurs!

Some anti-Bill of Rights people have proposed bans on all "military calibers." That pretty much includes every caliber made, but the things I have read include "popular" military calibers like .45ACP, 9mm, .223, etc. I think you'll see a significant rise in values of quality weapons like top-manufactured 1911s and AR-15s.

Tom, seriously though, do you really *need* a reason to buy something that will not only hold its value, typically gain value and provides hours upon hours of enjoyment?

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I don't think they will be more difficult to get. They've got much bigger fish to fry right now.

They are already running into supply issues due to people's concerns with the new political climate and social issues. Prices have already started to go up and inventory is already starting to go down.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[TomAiello 25]

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Tom, seriously though, do you really *need* a reason to buy something that will not only hold its value, typically gain value and provides hours upon hours of enjoyment?

Well, I own enough weapons now that most of them just sit around in my safe. I only get out to the range enough to be proficient with maybe two firearms, and I don't want to spend a bunch of time shooting just a few rounds out of dozens of guns. So, most of the things I'd consider buying are pretty much just investment purchases. Aside from a full auto, or a suppressed .22 (which is pretty much all out fun, actually), anything I'd buy would probably just get added to the list of things I hope to shoot more one day when my kids are old enough to take to the range.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[stitch 0]

Tom, I agree with Newguy, if any restrictions are sought they probably wouldn't be passed anytime soon. It has only been a few years since the last assualt rifle/hi-cap magazine ban was lifted. With all of concealed carry laws that have been passed in recent years, I can't see the goverment coming along and changing it over-night no matter who is in office. Anyway the NRA and other groups fill fight any changes to the current gun laws till the last breath.

"No cookies for you"- GFD
"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"

[AggieDave 6]

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assualt rifle/hi-cap magazine ban was lifted.

What exactly IS an assault rifle? What makes a Remington 700 a "hunting rifle" and an AR-15 an assault rifle?

Lots of hunters use an AR-15 and the Vietnam era USMC snipers used Remington 700s (the current USMC sniper rifle is based on it too).

"hi-cap" magazines is not correct. I'm sure you simply misspoke and meant to say "full capacity" magazines.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[TomAiello 25]

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I know a good handful of people buying up AR-15s, FNP90s (and FN2000s), Scars and Sigs right now. This is figuring they will become banned because they look scary. Prices have already started to go up!

I was definitely looking at PS90 and/or 5-7. The scary looks and large capacity make the PS90 a likely candidate for a ban, and I heard a leading democratic lawmaker call the 5-7 "the assault rifle that fits in your pocket." I'm not really that impressed with the ballistics of the round, so I would have several things I'd grab first in a self defense situation (like my Benelli M4, which is something I actually practice with), but the investment value of both the weapons and the ammunition looks pretty good.

Another thing that looks to me like a sure bet for a ban is the Saiga 12, but since I've already got two of those NIB, and another one highly modified that's not quite NIB, I'll probably not get any more.

When you say "sigs" are you talking about 556's? Or handguns? The other gun I really get any range time on is a P229 (and I'm well stocked on mags for that), but I was wondering about picking up a 556.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[AggieDave 6]

The Sig 556. Another top quality weapon. The Scar is incredible as well!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[TomAiello 25]

I don't know. I do know that Obama is pretty anti-gun, and that there is tabled legislation in the House to re-enact the Clinton era ban--the sponsor basically shelved it to wait for a president who wouldn't veto it. I'm going to be (pleasantly) surprised if we don't see a new gun ban in the next two years.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[quade 3]

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(c) I'm a cantankerous son of a bitch, and the best way to make sure I want something is to tell me I can't have it

Or, I guess, to think you can't have it in the future. Aren't gun bans kinda on the back burner as far as stated priorities of this next Administration? I just don't see where anything that has been said justifies this line of thought. Can you point me to something?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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This is meant as a practical question, not a debate. If you want to debate policy, please start another thread.

I think that we'll soon see another set of gun ban laws that make the Clinton era ban look pretty tame.

I'd think of "assault weapons" and "high capacity" guns+magazines first, since they were what the Democrats were able to ban the last time they held the presidency and Congress and even the Republican majority haven't been too in favor of them.

AR15 and lifetime supply of magazines. Great for target use with a heavy upper, great for social use out to 150 yards with a light one. Good ergonomics. Insanely accurate with a decent floating barrel. Great for girls. Instead of a cheek weld you just stick your nose on the charging handle. With cheap (Federal American Eagle 55gr) ammo as a mediocre shooter I've managed 194-8X on a 100 yard small bore target with iron sights (I never shot enough to learn to deal with wind, and the public range days stopped at 100 yards) You _need_ a decent AR15. (My favorite gun. In a storage facility)

.308 semi-auto battle rifle of your choice and lifetime supply of magazines. While you can't beat the price of metric FAL magazines (I didn't pay $6 each for a case of 50) I'm not terribly enamored of guns where I can't tell how well I'm shooting. I have a fondness for Galils; folding stock, decent sites, and OK trigger. Who can't love a gun with a bottle opener built in? An HK G3 might be nice (accurate, good sights, still work with broken extractors). Maybe a .308 AR. I didn't get around to buying a .308 I was especially fond of before moving to the Peoples' Republik.


Wide body pistol of your choice and lifetime supply of magazines. Get a Glock - decent trigger, good ergonomics, high capacity. I own a fat 1911 (Para-Ordnance 16-40) and it would be my second choice - it needs some work to be as accurate, but is definitely a neat gun (18+1 rounds of .40 S&W in its fat little belly).

10-22 and lifetime supply of high-capacity magazines. Very fun and cheap.

Should have an AK and lifetime supply of magazines. They're cheap.

Then I'd move onto other things, because Barack is both an urban bet-wetter (who tend to have a significant distaste for guns) and exceptionally charismatic (he stands a good chance of getting his legislation through). He might try the tricks with pistols and .50 BMGs that the schmucks have places like Kalifornia.

A concealable pistol. The .380 Keltec has a decent trigger and is smaller than many .25 and .22s. I've been meaning to buy a HK P7M8 in 9mm - good dimensions, the barrel is fixed to the frame (it's gas retarded blow-back), single action trigger (squeeze cocker), they're great.

High capacity shotgun. I don't know - maybe a short Mosberg 590 with the big magazine.

.50 BMG. Before I got caught up in moving (to Kalifornia for now, yuck) I thought the Serbu guns with Walther barrels were nice and affordable. Ammo.

Then (antique guns and class 3 are pretty much off the radar):

Antique mauser rebarrelled in the modern 7.92x57JS caliber. Legally it's not a gun so there's no paperwork. Probably will have to be a model 92 instead of an early 98.

In a free state I might think about a legal Mac (supressed) and supressed Ruger 10/22 and Mk II pistols. They're registered and could be confiscated. OTOH, with the illegal retention of NICS data and scanning of 4473 forms from gun shops that have gone out of business you probably have a lot of "registered" guns anyways.

[AggieDave 6]

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I've been looking at the possibility of picking up a 9mm with a 15 round magazine for fun, but if 10 is the limit does the .40SW with a 10 round magazine make more sense?

It makes the gun slightly heavier. The debate between 9mm and .40 is an old one. Its typically well trumped by .45ACP, though.

I carry 8+1 in a single stack 1911 and like it much better. Then again, I do carry 15+1 in a Glock 22 and am quite happy with it. Then again, I do carry 17+1 in a Glock 17 and am quite happy with it. Then again, I do carry 8+1 in a Glock 27 and am quite happy with it...

Caliber matters much less than people think. Proper training and practice matters much much more. Who would win a swoop comp, JaMo on a Sabre2 190 or some jackass with 400 jumps on a Velo 79?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[stitch 0]

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What exactly IS an assault rifle?

By most I believe the descrption would be any military/law enforcement type semi-auto rifle. Also assault type shotguns fall under the category. A remington 700 is, as you know, a bolt action rifle that holds 3 or 4 rounds depending on caliper in an internal-type mag. Some LE models have detachable magazines,.

If I had the money to buy something right now. I would probably get a HR Precision tactical takedown rifle in .338 Lapua. So I could shoot though body armor and kevlar helmets of those coming to get me from 1000 meters away. Of course at about $15 a round it could get pretty expensive.

"No cookies for you"- GFD
"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"

[AggieDave 6]

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By most I believe the descrption would be any military/law enforcement type semi-auto rifle.

That covers a very LARGE range of weapons, many of which persons would correctly consider to be a modern hunting rifle. Basically its a catch phrase that is thrown around by anti-bill-of-right activists!

Sorry, pet peeve. Along with calling magazines clips and the like. A lot of it is based on fear, the rest on ignorance.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[TomAiello 25]

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(c) I'm a cantankerous son of a bitch, and the best way to make sure I want something is to tell me I can't have it

Or, I guess, to think you can't have it in the future. Aren't gun bans kinda on the back burner as far as stated priorities of this next Administration? I just don't see where anything that has been said justifies this line of thought. Can you it point me to something?

I wouldn't expect to see it start with the administration. I would expect to see it come from the House, and perhaps be filibustered in the Senate, but I don't see a presidential veto there.

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I've been looking at the possibility of picking up a 9mm with a 15 round magazine for fun, but if 10 is the limit does the .40SW with a 10 round magazine make more sense?

If it's just for fun, I'd recommend a Sig Mosquito. Cheap to shoot, doesn't hurt your ears (or your wrist) and the standard mag is California legal. If you want a larger caliber (and live in CA), I'd look into either a .40 or a .45. Even then, most of the mags will have to be neutered to get into California (12 rounds is pretty common in those calibers). My favorite pistol in .40 is the Sig P229, but I'm hardly an expert. In .45 I'm pretty fond of the HK USP.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[quade 3]

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I've been looking at the possibility of picking up a 9mm with a 15 round magazine for fun, but if 10 is the limit does the .40SW with a 10 round magazine make more sense?

It makes the gun slightly heavier. The debate between 9mm and .40 is an old one. Its typically well trumped by .45ACP, though.

Yeah, I've been doing a bit of research on all the various arguments for and against. Most seem like pissing contests with each having advantages and disadvantages yet all being able to stop something fairly well. That is, after all why each was developed.

I think I would probably lean toward the 9mm, but now Tom has me paranoid about the possibility of not having full capacity magazines, which seems kinda silly since just a moment ago I was only considering the entire thing as a vague possibility.

Is it possible, do you think, that the NRA and gun manufacturers put this sort of spin/rumor out there just to whip people into a frenzy and sell more guns?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[AggieDave 6]

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Is it possible, do you think, that the NRA and gun manufacturers put this sort of spin/rumor out there just to whip people into a frenzy and sell more guns?

To a point, sure, but I honestly see this happening soon. The new congress, etc. Soon enough that I'm going to try to buy a couple more AR lowers after the first of the year and a shit-ton of extra magazines and that's even though I should personally have no problem buying during the ban!

Drop a PM or hit me on that other site and I'll give you my opinions in private if you wish. Then you can compare them to other opinions and research and come to your own conclusions (in terms of calibers, weapon choice, etc).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[stitch 0]

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Sorry, pet peeve. Along with calling magazines clips and the like. A lot of it is based on fear, the rest on ignorance.

I agree. And as you know as a law enforcement officer, a single shot bolt-action rifle is just as deadly as a rifle with a 30 round magazine in capable hands.

"No cookies for you"- GFD
"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"

[TomAiello 25]

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AR15 and lifetime supply of magazines.

Check. I've got a Bushmaster CMP, and also an Olympic CAR.

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Gotta have an AK and lifetime supply of magazines. They're cheap.

Check. Mine's an old MAK-90 I bought in the Clinton era, and I'm thinking of upgrading.

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.308 semi-auto battle rifle of your choice and lifetime supply of magazines.

Don't have one of those. I'll look into it. Thanks for the suggestion.

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Wide body pistol of your choice and lifetime supply of magazines.

Check. I've got the Glock in .45 and a Beretta in 9mm left over from the last gun ban, and I've since acquired a Sig P229 (.357/40).

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10-22 and lifetime supply of high-capacity magazines. Very fun and cheap.

Have two of those, actually. I'll probably pick up a target model at some point, but I'm not stressed about getting it because I don't think it's going to be banned. I'm definitely thinking a suppressor (or integrally suppressed 10-22) is on my list, though.

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Concealable pistol. The .380 Keltec has a decent trigger and is smaller than many .25 and .22s.

I've got the Keltec in .380. I don't really like how it shoots. I've also got a Sig P232, and that one I'm very fond of, even though it's quite a bit larger.

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High capacity shotgun. I don't know - maybe a short Mosberg 590 with the big magazine.

Check. Got a Benelli M4 with an extended mag tube, and a couple Saiga 12's with 10 rounders--still trying to get one of the 20 round drums for those.

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.50 BMG. Before I got caught up in moving (to Kalifornia for now, yuck) I thought the Serbu guns with Walther barrels were nice and affordable.

I've been looking into something like that, too. Not sure it's too high on my priority list, though, because the one's I like all tend to be bolt action (or single shot) and I don't think that's going to be banned. Even the semi-autos with 10 round mags aren't probably up for banning real soon.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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assualt rifle/hi-cap magazine ban was lifted.

What exactly IS an assault rifle?

Under the expired federal ban, the capacity to accept detachable magazines and two of several mostly cosmetic features including

- A pistol grip
- A flash hider or threaded barrel to accept one
- A grenade launcher (could be a muzzle appliance that fits available rifle grenades)
- A bayonett lug.

Generally such rifles are black and scary looking.

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What makes a Remington 700 a "hunting rifle" and an AR-15 an assault rifle?

A semi-automic action, ability to accept a detachable magazines, and more than one of the aforementioned evil features.

An AR15 pattern rifle with welded compensator and no bayonet lug was not classified as an "assault weapon" under the Clinton ban.

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Lots of hunters use an AR-15 and the Vietnam era USMC snipers used Remington 700s (the current USMC sniper rifle is based on it too).

Sure, although it's about political expediency not logic. The hunting rights association gets its knickers in less of a knot over "assault weapon" bans than prarie dog hunting. It still arguably cost the Democrats control of Contress.

Calling hunting rifles "sniper rifles" and banning them will have most of the supporting senators gone in 6 years, president 4, and representatives 2.

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"hi-cap" magazines is not correct. I'm sure you simply misspoke and meant to say "full capacity" magazines.

Yes, I make that mistake too.

[TomAiello 25]

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Under the expired federal ban...

The first two things I check to see the likelihood of a gun being banned are:

1) Was it something that would have been banned under the Clinton era law?

2) Is it presently banned in California?

Honestly, I think that any new federal ban is likely to be patterned on the present California law.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[quade 3]

WTF Tom, you starting an army?

I was thinking of maybe 1 gun mostly for fun but, ya never know, may come in handy some time, but I look at your arsenal and think, holy shit that's a lot of guns.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[TomAiello 25]

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I think I would probably lean toward the 9mm, but now Tom has me paranoid about the possibility of not having full capacity magazines, which seems kinda silly since just a moment ago I was only considering the entire thing as a vague possibility.

The best way to choose a firearm is to actually get some time on them. If you have a friend who has one, borrow it and take it to the range. If not, you can usually find a big gun store with an attached range that has many popular models available for rental. If you're ever in SLC or Boise, check out these guys, for example.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[AggieDave 6]

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a single shot bolt-action rifle is MORE deadly then a rifle with a 30 round magazine in capable hands.

There, fixed it for you.

How many cops do you see rolling around on daily patrol wearing Class IV armor? Yup. How many hunters are deadly accurate with their bolt action rifle from more than 100yrds out? Its almost as bad as having a ninja attack you.

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The best way to choose a firearm is to actually get some time on them.

For instance the Sig 22x series of handguns. Great weapons, accurate, reliable, tough...I don't personally like them. Why? They don't fit my hands very well. 1911 style weapons and Glocks fit my hands like a pair of OJ's gloves. Would the Sig be a good handgun for someone other then myself? Definitely!

You don't find stuff like that out until you're on the range and can put a couple of hundred rounds through a gun.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[TomAiello 25]

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WTF Tom, you starting an army?

Nah. Like I said, most of my stuff just sits in a safe. Someday after they're all banned and you can't find them, I'll either sell them off a few at a time, or just haul them out and show them off to my grandchildren. I don't have the time to really practice with them, and a gun without a competent, current shooter is really just a hunk of metal. I really only own two guns that I'd consider useful in my hands.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com