Not suitable for children?

[normiss 622]

The middle ground is typically uneducated regarding guns and gun safety and therefore need to remain quiet and stop believing media snippets.

[LadiDadi 0]

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She's essentially saying the reason this accident happened is because there was a gun range at a gun show when in fact neither of those two have anything to do with the cause of the accident.

Actually, what I'm saying is that an irresponsible parent had an irresponsible 'instructor' place an automatic weapon in a child's hands. The child shot himself with that gun because he couldn't handle it properly or safely.

This accident could have happened somewhere other than at a gun show.

The statement that I made was that, first of all, I have never heard of a gun show allowing loaded weapons on site (and I have been to literally hundreds of gun shows) and, secondly, that a gun show is not a gun range. Not that because this particular gunshow had a gun range, a child shot himself. I never made the connection between the accident and the existence of the gun range.

I don't want to see gun shows banned out of existence. In order for that to not happen, the operators of these gun shows need to look at what the general public that has never seen the inside of a gun show thinks they're all about.

I don't for a second think that the accident happened because there was a gun range there. I think it happened because adults were stupid.

If you can't laugh at yourself, I'll be happy to do it for you.
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Be like the cupcake and suck it up.

[billvon 2,400]

>The middle ground is typically uneducated regarding guns and gun safety
>and therefore need to remain quiet and stop believing media snippets.

Ah. The moderates need to shut the fuck up and not vote on things they can't understand. I like it! Sort of a "get out and stop the vote" approach.

I think that when you tell people "you just shut up and let us smart guys decide everything" you risk a backlash, though.

[LadiDadi 0]

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The middle ground is typically uneducated regarding guns and gun safety and therefore need to remain quiet and stop believing media snippets.

No, not *that* middle ground. The other one. The one that thinks that the right guns in the right hands is fine but that no one in the world needs a garage full of enough equipment to arm a small nation. The one that thinks that the average guy doesn't really need a fully automatic weapon. He may want one but he doesn't really need one. That middle ground.

If you can't laugh at yourself, I'll be happy to do it for you.
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Be like the cupcake and suck it up.

[normiss 622]

I'm glad someone can see both sides....
But both sides pay the price as well.
Now I can't shot a gun here or there because little Johnny has stupid parents and I can't buy ammo except "here" because some kid killed himself....I've never done anything wrong or irresponsible with my weapons.
The side that doesn't want ANY guns has to tolerate my desire to have them.
Those in the middle ground are left confused and respond with uneducated knee jerk reactions and decisions.

Today's news reports again show us laws do NOT work. IIRC, handguns are STILL illegal in Chicago...

[downwardspiral 0]

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How about "A gun show is not a gun range"?

That seems really simple to me. Maybe it's too simple and that's why no one has bothered to make that little rule.

Well now I'm confused because you recommended banning firing ranges at gun shows....right? I just don't see the connection how removing the firing range from the gun show makes anyone any safer. They are two seperate things that happen to be adjacent to eachother. It's not like everyone at the gun show is running around with a loaded weapon.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[LadiDadi 0]

Okay. See, I've never been to a gun show that had a firing range connected to it in any way so I don't know the set-up.

Public perception. That's the point. It doesn't make it any safer, it doesn't prevent any gun crimes or accidental deaths due to guns. It changes public perception. It is seen as a compromise between those that want gun shows and those that want them banned. There are a ton of people out there that thinks that gun shows are full of miscreants running around with loaded weapons when it is not the case. If you have a firing range in connection to a gun show then the public knows that there are loaded guns there.

If you can't laugh at yourself, I'll be happy to do it for you.
****************************
Be like the cupcake and suck it up.

[kelpdiver 2]

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>The middle ground is typically uneducated regarding guns and gun safety
>and therefore need to remain quiet and stop believing media snippets.

Ah. The moderates need to shut the fuck up and not vote on things they can't understand. I like it! Sort of a "get out and stop the vote" approach.

I think that when you tell people "you just shut up and let us smart guys decide everything" you risk a backlash, though.

If the shoe fits...

like abortion, the two partisan groups tell a lot of lies to those less informed in the middle.

[billvon 2,400]

>Now I can't shot a gun here or there because little Johnny has stupid
>parents and I can't buy ammo except "here" because some kid killed
>himself....I've never done anything wrong or irresponsible with my
>weapons.

Right. Unfortunately, others have. Had someone managed to stop them from doing those irresponsible things, then you would be more likely be able to get ammunition at your favorite stores.

Again, compare it to skydiving. We still have a relatively unregulated sport because we usually don't kill innocent people in the course of skydiving. When it does happen it is a very big deal, and we've added a lot of regulation to demos (voluntarily, through USPA) as a result.

Those additional regulations, while sometimes a pain in the ass, help keep dropzones open and help prevent 'real' (i.e. legislated) restrictions on skydiving. You can bet, though, that if we ever started doing bandit jumps left and right and killing innocent people in our landing areas with regularity, that would change very fast.

So we live with those voluntary restrictions, and this (paradoxically) helps keep our sport less regulated. Sure, it means you can't easily jump into your own backyard, even though it would be pretty safe for you to do. But overall it's worth it.

[billvon 2,400]

>like abortion, the two partisan groups tell a lot of lies to those less informed
>in the middle.

Absolutely. But I am sure you would be aghast at someone who said "OK, only religious conservatives, doctors and civil rights workers can vote on abortion issues."

[Trent 0]

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like abortion, the two partisan groups tell a lot of lies to those less informed in the middle.

Or like politics in general...

Oh, hello again!

[AggieDave 6]

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It's not like everyone at the gun show is running around with a loaded weapon.

Every gun show I've ever been to you had to have a badge or your weapon was made safe and zip tied through the mag well.

That way you were safe while trying to find the guns amongst all electric stun devices, lamps and beef jerky.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[downwardspiral 0]

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Okay. See, I've never been to a gun show that had a firing range connected to it in any way so I don't know the set-up.

Public perception. That's the point. It doesn't make it any safer, it doesn't prevent any gun crimes or accidental deaths due to guns. It changes public perception. It is seen as a compromise between those that want gun shows and those that want them banned. There are a ton of people out there that thinks that gun shows are full of miscreants running around with loaded weapons when it is not the case. If you have a firing range in connection to a gun show then the public knows that there are loaded guns there.

A good example of middle ground or compromise is CA gun laws. We are about as disarmed as we can get without being unconstitutional. Gun shows are banned in LA because of the Hollywood shoutout where the AK47s used were originally purchased at a gunshow although not by the perpatrators.

I'm all for gun laws based on logic and reason. NOT based on fear and paranoia.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[kallend 1,623]

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Okay. See, I've never been to a gun show that had a firing range connected to it in any way so I don't know the set-up.

Public perception. That's the point. It doesn't make it any safer, it doesn't prevent any gun crimes or accidental deaths due to guns. It changes public perception. It is seen as a compromise between those that want gun shows and those that want them banned. There are a ton of people out there that thinks that gun shows are full of miscreants running around with loaded weapons when it is not the case. If you have a firing range in connection to a gun show then the public knows that there are loaded guns there.

A good example of middle ground or compromise is CA gun laws. We are about as disarmed as we can get without being unconstitutional. Gun shows are banned in LA because of the Hollywood shoutout where the AK47s used were originally purchased at a gunshow although not by the perpatrators.

I'm all for gun laws based on logic and reason. NOT based on fear and paranoia.

Which is why we need FEWER, BETTER LAWS, with better enforcement.

30,000 gun laws on the books is simply absurd.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

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like abortion, the two partisan groups tell a lot of lies to those less informed in the middle.

Or like politics in general...

I think most people understand the basics of tax law.

But someone who has never owned/used a gun, or a single man who hasn't impregnated any girlfriends - these people tend to have very limited knowledge and are easily lied to. See the myth of plastic glocks, or most of the BS on partial birth abortions.

[kelpdiver 2]

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>like abortion, the two partisan groups tell a lot of lies to those less informed
>in the middle.

Absolutely. But I am sure you would be aghast at someone who said "OK, only religious conservatives, doctors and civil rights workers can vote on abortion issues."

Indeed. I do find it unfortunate, but the alternative is far worse.

[Trent 0]

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But someone who has never owned/used a gun, or a single man who hasn't impregnated any girlfriends - these people tend to have very limited knowledge and are easily lied to. See the myth of plastic glocks, or most of the BS on partial birth abortions.

This is becoming more common in general on many issues. The only thing you can do is educate people honestly. I took a liberal shooting this weekend. She hated guns and was just waiting for one to jump up and assault her. She walked away thinking that it was pretty damn fun, especially the AR.

People market to the lowest, largest common denominator to push their agendas. They're easy, cheap votes. It's much more difficult to really educate people, especially when one side is trying to do it right and the other is spouting propaganda.

Oh, hello again!

[Shotgun 1]

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>How about "A gun show is not a gun range"?

Seems like a commonsense suggestion. But even that suggestion resulted almost immediately in a "that's a horrible idea" reply.

I'd be curious to know the stats on how many people per year are injured because of gun ranges at gun shows, before I could say whether that is a commonsense suggestion. (I currently have no idea.) I'm not immediately seeing why a gun range at a gun show is particularly more dangerous than a stand-alone gun range, but I know pretty much nothing about gun shows, so maybe I'm missing something?

[BartsDaddy 4]

Everyone here is saying this was at a gunshow. Just like reports of parachuting accidents not getting information straight, This artcle does not get the specifics right either. This was at a organized machine gun shoot. This was not a gunshow like what everyone thinks.

Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle

[Shotgun 1]

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There's no question that poor judgement is the cause here. When I take adults to a range and give them a semiautomatic for the first time, I give them a single round in the chamber so they can experience the recoil for that model. The gun range in Henderson (Las Vegas) that rents automatics does something similar - you have to file one shot with reasonable accuracy before they permit automatic fire.

It sounds like this accident could have been prevented if they had done this.

[LadiDadi 0]

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This was not a gunshow like what everyone thinks.

I sit corrected.

Thanks for clearing that up. It does make more sense now... Well... It doesn't make sense what happened but regarding where it happened... you know what I mean. I hope.

If you can't laugh at yourself, I'll be happy to do it for you.
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Be like the cupcake and suck it up.

[speuci 0]

No new laws needed here. Inevitably, there will be a civil lawsuit naming both the instructor and the venue and citing negligence or some other causes of action.

There will then be a settlement that will probably be costly (don't want to let this one get to a jury!!!!!!)

Then, all gunshows will prohibit eight year olds from shooting weapons for fear of the liability.

Thats my guess as to how this plays out...

[JohnRich 4]

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Public perception. That's the point. It doesn't make it any safer, it doesn't prevent any gun crimes or accidental deaths due to guns. It changes public perception. It is seen as a compromise between those that want gun shows and those that want them banned. There are a ton of people out there that thinks that gun shows are full of miscreants running around with loaded weapons when it is not the case. If you have a firing range in connection to a gun show then the public knows that there are loaded guns there.

There's the problem with your approach. You want to give up something to try and change a public perception which you admit is incorrect in the first place. That's a bad approach. The better approach is to just get the truth out and educate the public, rather than giving up something because other people are ignorant.

And the problem with compromise on gun-control is that it is a one way street - against gun ownership. It never compromises back in the other direction in favor of more lenient gun laws. To illustrate:

If I have four guns, and I compromise and agree to give up half of them, that leaves me just two.

But then the gun-control folks turn right around and come back asking for yet more:

If I compromise yet again and agree to give up half of my guns once more, that leaves me with just one.

Then the next time they pull the same game on me:

The next time you want me to compromise, I've got no more room left to give. It's all or nothing, and I won't compromise.

And then the gun-grabbers will holler about how gun owners are too rigid and refuse to compromise...

And my above example illustrates another problem with your approach - if you compromise and give something away every time there's a terrible accident or tragedy, in an attempt to pacify the masses, you'll soon have nothing left.

[billvon 2,400]

And then the gun-grabbers . . .

It is paranoia like this that pretty much guarantees that the laws that will be passed will be over-reaching, reactionary and restrictive, instead of well thought out. "Well, we wanted a reasonable law, but then another few kids died and all the gun folks were calling us 'gun grabbers' and refusing to talk to us at all. So we banned assault weapons."

[JohnRich 4]

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I have never heard of a gun show allowing loaded weapons on site and, secondly, that a gun show is not a gun range.

Carnivals are not a gun range, but they often have shooting galleries where you can use real guns to fire real ammo at targets.

Yes, it's true that ammo is often banned from gun shows to prevent accidents. But there's no reason that, with the proper setup and controls, that a shooting range couldn't be associated with a gun show. You would just have to ensure that no live ammo leaves the range area, to get back into the show area. They could either allow only the range guns to be fired, which never leave the range area, or if outside guns are brought in to test fire, then they could check to make sure that no loaded guns leave the range area.

As for ammo at gun shows, one of the reasons I go is to find rare and obsolete ammo for some of my old military surplus firearms. Like 12.7mm for a Remington rolling block, or 7.65 x 53 for an antique German mauser. But now that gun shows have banned ammo, I can't browse and do that anymore. It defeats one of the major reasons I used to go to gun shows.