Why is this substandard way of speaking becoming more prevalent?

[misaltas 0]

There's a technical term for what BikerBabe just did.
It's called "boiling down your meaning."
I call it: returning the point to the one I made and not the one you changed it to.

>IMO, people are free to use language in the best way they see fit.
Is that what's happening?
Sometimes yes sometimes no. Not worth anyone getting all bunged up about it.

I would truly prefer it if everyone used a standard form of English and didn't...deform it and degrade it.
All languages change over time, constantly and continually. Always have always will whether you prefer them to or not. IMO, people may be more calm and happy in life if they used language more as the "tool for communication" it is, and less like a "repository of rules, some of which serve little function other than to separate the classes."

That would mean fewer "lower class" people would be kept out of decent jobs because they made a shitty impression on the college-educated, articulate interviewer.
Right idea, wrong reason. If a part of the job (most higher paying jobs) require the candidate be competent using "standard" English, then if they want the job that's what they'll need to do when interviewing then performing the duties of that job. Has nothing to do with the impressional preference of the interviewer him/herself.

I'm sure we all know plenty of people who use standard English at work, and a different register outside of work, or even a different dialect or language altogether. In that way, perhaps think of it as a work skill.

Ohne Liebe sind wir nichts

[BikerBabe 0]

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I'm sure we all know plenty of people who use standard English at work, and a different register outside of work, or even a different dialect or language altogether. In that way, perhaps think of it as a work skill.

Excellent. Let's do that. One could then argue that proper grammar, spelling, and punctuation should be stressed in schools. So we come to the original question again: why is a substandard way of speaking (and writing, i might add) becoming more prevalent? Is it not being taught in schools? or if it is taught, is it not being stressed as important?

I would argue, for the VERY reason you just stated, that proper speaking is extremely important. So why then is someone who despairs the collapse of the english language seen as an "elitist?" I would say I am just arguing for the greater good of society.

Why is arguing for the teaching and upholding of standards that are arguably of benefit to a person considered to be elitism? I would instead call it altruism.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[misaltas 0]

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I was merely pointing out misaltas' post as an example. Not to mention he played right into my prediction on the first page of this thread.

Happy to oblige...

Did you ever realize that much of what passes as "standard", "educated" English today grew out of non-standard uses perhaps only a century or two ago--or less. And that if educated folk from the 18th century heard us all speaking today, it would sound to them like the characters of Idiocracy sound to us?

Again, my point is this:
Perhaps we should use language more as a tool to communicate ideas, and less as a tool to justify one's tendency to judge and separate.

Ohne Liebe sind wir nichts

[billvon 2,471]

>Perhaps we should use language more as a tool to communicate ideas, and
>less as a tool to justify one's tendency to judge and separate.

Agreed 100%. And to do that, you need to use a standard language that everyone understands and agrees upon.

[BikerBabe 0]

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I was merely pointing out misaltas' post as an example. Not to mention he played right into my prediction on the first page of this thread.

Happy to oblige...

Did you ever realize that much of what passes as "standard", "educated" English today grew out of non-standard uses perhaps only a century or two ago--or less. And that if educated folk from the 18th century heard us all speaking today, it would sound to them like the characters of Idiocracy sound to us?

Again, my point is this:
Perhaps we should use language more as a tool to communicate ideas, and less as a tool to justify one's tendency to judge and separate.

The day one can score a job on wall street after answering an interviewer's questions in the manner posted in this thread, or in Idiocracy, then i will possibly change my tune.

As of now, you won't see it. And kids turning in papers written in "leet speak" or text message "language" because they don't know how to write any other way is NOT beneficial to society, whatever you may say.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[quade 3]

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And to do that, you need to use a standard language that everyone understands and agrees upon.

So, you're saying we should ditch English altogether in favor of Esperanto?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,471]

>So, you're saying we should ditch English altogether in favor of Esperanto?

I must say that I do like Esperanto! But barring changing out everyone's language, it behooves us all (especially in a forum that's read worldwide in many english-speaking countries) to write in such a manner that others can understand what we post.

[downwardspiral 0]

Beneficial or not it's the way of things and always will be. There will always be proper english and slang. The inability to use one or the other can put a person at a severe disadvantage depending on the circumstances.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[Amazon 7]

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But barring changing out everyone's language, it behooves us all (especially in a forum that's read worldwide in many english-speaking countries) to write in such a manner that others can understand what we post.

I would say that many of those people overseas, have a far better grasp of spoken and typed english, than some of the poor victims of our supposed "liberal" educational system, or so they keep telling us.

[misaltas 0]

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Excellent. Let's do that. One could then argue that proper grammar, spelling, and punctuation should be stressed in schools.

Near as I can tell, it is being taught and stressed as important. It's of course the function of schools to help prepare kids to be productive functioning members of society, and knowing standard English is still a valuable skill at the moment. Doesn't mean anything's wrong with someone who doesn't use standard English 24x7 like some of the first examples implied. That is, unless you want to see it as wrong and choose to use that as a point of personal frustration. I just threw in two cents to suggest that those who are frustrated might want to honestly examine themselves as to why.

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So we come to the original question again: why is a substandard way of speaking (and writing, i might add) becoming more prevalent?

There have probably always been standard and non-standard ways of using language. One's view of concern-worthy degradation is another's acceptable dialect.

Shoot, the Finns have an almost completely separate informal form of their language. Not very efficient to be good at both, but not wrong and not worth frustration if it too is a tool for effectively communicating.

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So why then is someone who despairs the collapse of the english language seen as an "elitist?"

I have a few posts above where I'm sure I explained my opinion on the matter--using fairly standard English.

(ed: changed "your" to "the" since BB wasn't the OP. my mistake.)

Ohne Liebe sind wir nichts

[BikerBabe 0]

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Beneficial or not it's the way of things and always will be. There will always be proper english and slang. The inability to use one or the other can put a person at a severe disadvantage depending on the circumstances.

I no how 2 rd slng & txt msg spk, ne1 can c u need 2 ths days.

But that doesn't mean that we should let the proper way degrade at the expense of the slang.

My point here is this: slang is just fine, but when kids or even adults know NO OTHER WAY to speak or write, that's where the trouble lies.

You know, I'm not sure why I'm arguing this anymore. To be perfectly honest, being an elitist when it comes to this issue isn't such a bad thing in my mind. Yes, I am proud that I know how to speak and write properly, and i know that I will go farther in this world because of it.

Yes, if someone speaks or writes like the examples in this thread, I DO tend to prejudge their intelligence level. As will that job interviewer.

Sorry, that's the way it is. If one doesn't want people to think one is an uneducated idiot, don't write or speak like one. Harsh? Maybe. True? Definitely.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[misaltas 0]

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>Perhaps we should use language more as a tool to communicate ideas, and
>less as a tool to justify one's tendency to judge and separate.

Agreed 100%. And to do that, you need to use a standard language that everyone understands and agrees upon.

Heh, heh... Spoken like a true engineer.

A math formula, a micrometer, and a computing protocol can and should be perfect and work one consistent way.

My view of language as a tool (and world history backs me up I believe) is more fluid and flexible than that. Even those of us who can only speak one language can perfectly understand differences within that language. I'm much more concerned with folks who's motivation is to label others as using "my way versus the wrong way", or "the way I associate with intelligent educated use" not considering that what they just heard may still be perfectly understandable.

But, on the job, if there is a standard way to speak like there is a standard way to load a truck or design a network, then that's the tool for the job.

Ohne Liebe sind wir nichts

[downwardspiral 0]

Oh I'm not necessarily arguing with you. I've just never personally met someone, english being their first language, who couldn't speak properly when necessary so it doesn't frustrate me to hear them speak that way.

Granted there are people and children who can't speak properly but they generally are less educated with a lower IQ. I don't think it's spreading across our society like you think it is.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[billvon 2,471]

> Even those of us who can only speak one language can perfectly
>understand differences within that language.

Of course; everyone speaks (and writes) slightly differently.

But when someone writes in such a convoluted and "unique" fashion that their intent is no longer clear to someone who is an expert at that language, then they are, in my opinion, being rather foolish. It is pointless to spend the time to write something that your target audience cannot understand.

[misaltas 0]

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But when someone writes in such a convoluted and "unique" fashion that their intent is no longer clear to someone who is an expert at that language, then they are, in my opinion, being rather foolish. It is pointless to spend the time to write something that your target audience cannot understand.

I couldn't agree more, on both points.

If the OP had used examples described well by what you just said there, I would've agreed and not jumped in on this thread at all. Other than maybe to say, "yep, whoever said those things is not effectively using language well enough to be understood."

Ohne Liebe sind wir nichts

[rehmwa 2]

Interesting thread, except for the use of the word "behooves" I'm all for it.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[misaltas 0]

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The day one can score a job on wall street after answering an interviewer's questions in the manner posted in this thread, or in Idiocracy, then i will possibly change my tune.

As of now, you won't see it. And kids turning in papers written in "leet speak" or text message "language" because they don't know how to write any other way is NOT beneficial to society, whatever you may say.

Nope, missed again. At this point you're in a debate all by yourself. There's nothing you said just there above that conflicts anything I've said.

Ohne Liebe sind wir nichts

[kallend 1,679]

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And to do that, you need to use a standard language that everyone understands and agrees upon.

So, you're saying we should ditch English altogether in favor of Esperanto?

Last time I checked, almost no-one understood Esperanto.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Lindsey 0]

Everybody understand Pig Latin.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[birdlike 0]

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>Perhaps we should use language more as a tool to communicate ideas, and
>less as a tool to justify one's tendency to judge and separate.

Agreed 100%. And to do that, you need to use a standard language that everyone understands and agrees upon.

People who bemoan the divisions between people that keep us from relating peacefully should abhor the "changes" in language that occur and end up underscoring the divisions between us and our cultures.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[birdlike 0]

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And to do that, you need to use a standard language that everyone understands and agrees upon.

So, you're saying we should ditch English altogether in favor of Esperanto?

Last time I checked, almost no-one understood Esperanto.

I don't know the first word in Esperanto, but I have heard of it and it sounds like a decent idea poorly executed.

Strangely, I was driving on the highway a few months ago and saw a car with a bumper sticker that invited people to find out more about Esperanto.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[quade 3]

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And to do that, you need to use a standard language that everyone understands and agrees upon.

So, you're saying we should ditch English altogether in favor of Esperanto?

Last time I checked, almost no-one understood Esperanto.

I'm not saying they do. I'm saying that's what its design goal was.

You are more or less correct about acceptance though. In its 140ish year history it has acquired upwards of 2,000 "native" speakers (children of people that spoke it at home and learned it as a first language) and estimates vary greatly as to fluent speakers; anywhere from 100,000 to 2,000,000.

A view through the FutureCam™ reveals the "defacto" language of the planet is going to end up to be world-wide variation of English. Yes, yes, "Mandarin" is used (written) by far more people, but the various spoken dialects are almost incomprehensible to those outside the dialect and so English is going to be the eventual winner.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 3]

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I don't know the first word in Esperanto, but I have heard of it and it sounds like a decent idea poorly executed.

My understanding is that it's brilliantly executed, less so accepted.

It's entirely designed from the ground up, is not ethnically based, has a simple syntax and grammatical structure with easy to understand rules that are flexible enough to allow the creation of new words instantly understandable to all that would speak it.

It just never caught on.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[nanook 1]

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Then why is it reported fact that they are submitting school essays and papers that are being rejected by teachers for being composed of this bullshit "l33tspeak" crap?

These kids don't know better. . .yet. I believe you see a symptom. I believe I see learning going on here. The teachers are rejecting the papers after all.

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Now, there are people who, if I were to go up to them and talk the way I normally talk (which some would call "educated"), would TAKE OFFENSE and probably mock me back to my face and attempt to affect my "accent" -- because of a mistaken belief that I am, just by virtue of being myself, trying to insult them. This is not because of what I am actually doing, but because of THEIR OWN IGNORANCE.

That's the problem I see here. You are making huge assumptions on their train of thought.

When you are talking to these people next time, pay attention to your body language. It speaks louder than your words most of the time. You may inadverdently be making negative signals.

_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[birdlike 0]

Didn't I say something earlier that language should be constructed "mathematically"?

You wouldn't get two different answers if you handed a coherent math problem to two different mathematicians (provided they are both competent).

We should not have words that mean opposite things;
We should not have verb conjugations that do not derive from a formula that can be applied across them all;
We should not have silent letters;
We should not have six different letter combinations that make the same sound;
We should be able to make plurals the same way for all words...

These are just a few of what would probably be many stipulations I would make if I were designing a language. The big problem is that languages don't get designed; they just happen. So we get stuck with what we get.

Does Esperanto qualify so far (based on my criteria)?

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire