WTF is America doing?

[kbordson 8]

Quote

What I was implying was that someone so hypocritical as to proclaim his countries murder as 'free democratic dictator stopping' doesn't have a leg to stand on in an argument about anyone else's affairs.

You're right. THE GOVERNMENT shouldn't have a hypocritical stance. But an individual that didn't personally murder or even want to support a war, should be able to voice his opinion.

Quote

Domestic violence is often less 'serious' than international conflict.

It's wrong for Russia to invade Georgia, very wrong...

However they are not rolling tanks through the country to overthrow the government and capture the capital. It is a domestic/provincial dispute which, as far as I have read, involved Georgia bombing the civilian population before Russia ever stepped foot across the border.

How would a similar event have been framed in the west? US invades Mexico or US defends Mexico.

It is attempted annexation, and again wrong, but to compare Russian action in its current context to US action then Russia would have to have suddenly sprouted 40,000 men inside Nigeria and Congo.

It is 'serious'... it is 'serious' for all the innocent people catching Russian and Georgian shells in their apartment blocks... its not 'serious' if the word is used in a comparison and defense of US action.

I don't think it was being used to "defend" American actions... instead I'm just saying that hiding behind the "but we're not AS BAD" excuse doesn't hold water.

[masterrig 1]

It's wrong for Russia to invade Georgia, very wrong...

However they are not rolling tanks through the country to overthrow the government and capture the capital. It is a domestic/provincial dispute which, as far as I have read, involved Georgia bombing the civilian population before Russia ever stepped foot across the border.

Kinda'-sorta. Georgia, as I'm sure you have read, was part of the Soviet Union but the people are not Slavic, more like southern Europeans, with a long history of their own. To dilute that history, the USSR had essentially colonized Georgia by sending in lots of ethnic Russians, suppressing the Georgian language, wiping-out religion, etc. When the Soviet Union fell apart, Georgia was one of the first republics to claim independence but some of their provinces still had a lot of those Russians who identified with Russia and not Georgia. Russia made the problem worse (intentionally) by granting those people Russian identies and passports. Two of those provinces have been carrying on a low level insurgency for the past few years, encouraged by Putin. Georgia's president is kind of a hot-head and finally lost patience. When Russia's president was on vacation and Putin was at the Olympics, he started artillery attacks on one of them... South Ossetia. Russia responded by saying that it's 'citizens' were in danger, so started bombing Georgia. The Georgian army couldn't defend it's borders and the Russians are now occupying large chunks of Georgia proper. not just the breakaway provinces. The Russian Navy has blockaded all of Georgia's Black Sea ports.
Georgia's president set-off a chain of events but Russia is totally culpable for the bombings and invasion of Georgia. They apparently want to re-annex the whole country, including a critically important oil pipeline (a million barrels a day!) so they can choke-off oil supplies to western Europe.
The Russian bear is loose and on a rampage. Poland and other former client states are in a panic.


Chuck

[Andy9o8 0]

Good analysis.

As I alluded in the "WTF is Russia doing?" thread, the historical parallels to Germany in the 1930's are instructive. Germany annexed the Sudetenland, formed a "voluntary" union with Austria, and ultimately invaded Poland all on the pretext of protecting ethnic Germans living there.

And this is why study of history is so important: because, just as with life experience, history allows you to recognize the nature and consequences of events and actors for what they are, because you've "seen" it before. That's real value, unlike crap like mathematics or the hard sciences. History's where it's at, man.

[masterrig 1]

I can see what you are saying!
It's the old adage; "History repeats itself!" The thing is, it doesn't seem as though we pay much attention to it so... the beat goes on. I've always had a big interest in history.


Chuck

[Froggy 0]

Quote

Kinda'-sorta. Georgia, as I'm sure you have read, was part of the Soviet Union but the people are not Slavic, more like southern Europeans, with a long history of their own. To dilute that history, the USSR had essentially colonized Georgia by sending in lots of ethnic Russians, suppressing the Georgian language, wiping-out religion, etc.

May be getting a bit off-topic here, but since you mentioned this (see my emphasis), I'd like to respond... Since you said in your other post that you have a big interest in history, may I suggest you check your facts? I am speaking as a person who lived over 20 years in one of the former republics of the USSR. I am Russian by birth, but used to live in Estonia from 1974 through 1996, until I left for Canada. Plus, my grandfather was a Ukranian, so I have been to Ukraine more than once or twice. Plus, I visited several other former republics, too... I think I can say that I know first-hand a little bit of what I am talking about.

As for the religion, unfortunately, the "wipe-out" was happening all across the USSR in the early years. Later, in more "reasonable" times, religion was simply separated from the state (a very good thing to do, IMO), but not suppressed or wiped out. Georgians in their majority, BTW, are Orthodox Christians, just like Russians, even though they are not Slavic. So, what I am saying is that the early "wipe-out" of religion was not being done to dilute the induvidual history or identity of smaller nations -- it was simply a policy of an "atheist state"; and later, the religion was pretty much left alone, so your argument doesn't make much sense, sorry.

Now, regarding the "suppression" of the language. Can you please define what suppression means in this context? See, the interesting thing is that, even though Russian was the official state language in the USSR (nothing wrong with that, IMO), every republic's population had full rights to use their own language equally along with Russian. Mass media (TV, radio, press)? Check! Justice system? Check! Law making and law enforcement? Check! Culture (music, literature, etc.)? Check! Education? Check! (BTW, the choice of education in the national language was the norm on all levels, from pre-schools to universities). Business documentation? OK, this was a bit more complicated in reality, I admit... What's happening now is that all these republics-turned-independent-countries are being presented by their politicians as victims of a total "cultural genocide", which NEVER HAPPENED! Why? Well, how convenient is it to pose as a victim to accuse the "empire" of all possible and impossible sins...

Anyway, just wanted to let you know that if you are using certain "facts" in your argument, it's worth checking them first. You may be surprised with what you find out...

Quote

They apparently want to re-annex the whole country

I honestly don't think this is exactly what they want, let alone the fact that it's pretty much impossible for number of reasons... What would be good, though, is to have somebody actually sane as the Georgian president. As one of the Russian journalists said recently, "there are a lot of pro-Western and pro-NATO characters in Georgian political opposition who are at least not schizo-paranoid, able to negotiate, and overall far better for both Moscow and Washington"...

--------------
We were not born to fly. And all we can do is to try not to fall...

[masterrig 1]

I certainly do appreciate your in-put and clarification of the facts. I didn't say this was 'gospel' what I was saying was as I learned it. What I presented also was intended to bring out any flaws or mis-representation of the facts, in the form of discussion. I seem to have accomplished that. Since you have 'lived' it, I can appreciate it even more. It's good to get the straight story rather than live in a fog of mis-information. Thank you, again.


Chuck

[Froggy 0]

I apologize if I sounded a bit... harsh, may be. But looks like you've got it right -- I just wanted to clarify some things that may not be obvious... I am not a historian, but, as I said, I lived in the USSR (NOT in Russia) for quite a long time, and some time after it fell, so take it just as my personal experience.

Anyhow, the discussion is veering off to a different topic (which even has it's own thread). In the context of this topic, however, my opininon is that the U.S. has no business there what-so-ever, and should stay away from all this. Not that it will actually happen, I am not so naive...

--------------
We were not born to fly. And all we can do is to try not to fall...

[tbrown 26]

I wouldn't say they're demonstrating hypocracy so much as finding out their own actions have shot their credibility all to hell.

Look at it this way. Not too long ago, our forces were in Haiti. If Russia told us to leave Haiti, would we not have politely told the Russians to fuck off ?

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[masterrig 1]

No problem. I have a thick skin! Besides, you lived closer to the 'subject' than I do!
I don't think we should stick our nose into the matter, either. We might just get it bitten off. It might be different if, Georgia were to 'ask' for our help. I have no proof but, it seems as though, when someone here gets elected to the presidency, he automatically gets a big star that says: 'World Sheriff' on it. He doesn't know, he's just the president of the U.S.


Chuck

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Quote

You have a hundred other threads to bash America over Iraq.

A sovereign democracy is invaded by communists, and all you liberals can think to do is bash America, which is doing nothing more than peacefully trying to make Russia stop.

I would like to see you America-bashers cease your mindless bashing long enough to give an honest answer to this question:

Do you approve of Russia invading Georgia?
Answer Yes or No.

See if you can pull yourself away from your America-bashing long enough to actually consider the seriousness of this world event, on its own. Forget about America for five seconds. Try really hard.

My thanks to JohnRich for proving just how hard it truly is for a liberal to [I]ANSWER A FUCKING YES OR NO QUESTION![/I] Nice job, JohnRich!

Thank you, birdlike.

It's simply amazing to me that communist Russia can invade a sovereign free democracy, with news reports of atrocities committed by Russian troops, and the liberals can't seem to choke up a single word of disapproval.

These are the same people who promote themselves as the saviors of the downtrodden and the oppressed, and the people who care about the welfare of others.

And yet all they can think to do in response to the invasion of Georgia is to bash their own country, which has nothing to do with the invasion, and is only trying to peacefully persuade Russia to stop.

None of them have risen to my challenge and bothered to answer my basic question, above.

So what does this tell me about the liberals?

It tells me that they don't really give a damn about anyone else except themselves. They pretend to care about others, but when it comes time to put-up or shut-up, they just do nothing, except whine. They prefer to stay safe in their own little world, and say "to hell" with everyone else. Better that an entire nation of peaceful Christians cease to exist, then to risk a single American life saving them.

And while they're doing all this, they're calling America the hypocrite, and a great Satan, for daring to show concern for the Georgians and others.

Look in the mirror, liberals.

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing."

[kallend 1,653]

Quote

Quote

Quote

You have a hundred other threads to bash America over Iraq.

A sovereign democracy is invaded by communists, and all you liberals can think to do is bash America, which is doing nothing more than peacefully trying to make Russia stop.

I would like to see you America-bashers cease your mindless bashing long enough to give an honest answer to this question:

Do you approve of Russia invading Georgia?
Answer Yes or No.

See if you can pull yourself away from your America-bashing long enough to actually consider the seriousness of this world event, on its own. Forget about America for five seconds. Try really hard.

My thanks to JohnRich for proving just how hard it truly is for a liberal to [I]ANSWER A FUCKING YES OR NO QUESTION![/I] Nice job, JohnRich!

Thank you, birdlike.

It's simply amazing to me that communist Russia can invade a sovereign free democracy, with news reports of atrocities committed by Russian troops, and the liberals can't seem to choke up a single word of disapproval.

Apparently you need to read a greater variety of commentary, not just the conservative media.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[idrankwhat 0]

Quote

Apparently you need to read a greater variety of commentary, not just the conservative media.

He apparently doesn't even read the threads that he posts to.

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

It's simply amazing to me that communist Russia can invade a sovereign free democracy, with news reports of atrocities committed by Russian troops, and the liberals can't seem to choke up a single word of disapproval.

Do you have any basis for that assertion or is it just meant to be inflammatory?

Did you miss where I disproved your assertion before (here), or do you not consider Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi and Rep Ike Skelton (D-MO) liberals?

"The future of Georgia should be decided by the Georgian people.

“The sooner Russian military action ceases, Russian forces are withdrawn, and Georgia's borders are respected, the sooner a settlement of Georgia's internal disputes can be achieved and regional security enhanced.”

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

I would choose "neither."

While a couple folks have mentioned/implied it in passing, the US is acting on security guarantees and in an effort to try to maintain regional stability.

Russia is facing a security dilemma at its border beyond the lingering, hissing-sputtering historical and cultural animosities and perceived wrongs.

Both are realist political actions.

The US military has been training and equipping the Georgian Army since Spring 2002 (at a cost of >$150M) at the Krtsanisi National Education Center. An old Soviet military base, Krtsanisi is now the training base just outside Tbilisi. EUCOM’s Georgia Sustainment and Stability Operations Program (SSOP) (link from Defenselink.mil) has generally been considered to be a *successful* endeavor in security- and capacity-building. (Whole bunch of EUCOM.mil links). Additionally, among OIF’s MNF Georgians have been the 3rd or 4th largest national group.

As the Georgian military becomes stronger, better trained, and better equipped, how is Russia going to view that development? Including in the context all the variables mentioned in this thread … & some others, like requesting initiation of the process to begin entry to NATO.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Froggy 0]

Quote

It's simply amazing to me that communist Russia can invade a sovereign free democracy, with news reports of atrocities committed by Russian troops

I don't even know how to comment on this... If you think Russia is a communist state, I suggest you come out of hibernation. As for atrocities and who committed them, please read at least some alternative news reports, besides Fox News and the likes. Geez...

--------------
We were not born to fly. And all we can do is to try not to fall...

[christelsabine 1]

Quote

Quote

Quote

So I guess that you think all invasions are equal.

A free democracy invading a tyrannical dictatorship to set its people free, is the same as a tyrannical dictatorship invading a free democracy.

So I guess there was nothing wrong with the Nazi's taking over Europe either. We all should have just ignored them and let them have it.

As long as you believe in your self created fairy tales - yes. It seems you still believe in the holy crusade to free the poor. What an old BS.

It's nice to know you are stuck in your corner of the world. Stay there.

You seem to specialize in hit-and-run, terse, hateful posts. Wow. That kind of bitter bile inside must be hard to live with.

I'm fine, thanks PFJ. Where have you been the last 4 yrs?

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

None of them have risen to my challenge and bothered to answer my basic question, above.

So what does this tell me about the liberals?

That they can stay on topic and not easily succumb to thread hijacking attempts, perhaps?

Quote

It tells me that they don't really give a damn about anyone else except themselves. They pretend to care about others, but when it comes time to put-up or shut-up, they just do nothing, except whine. They prefer to stay safe in their own little world, and say "to hell" with everyone else. Better that an entire nation of peaceful Christians cease to exist, then to risk a single American life saving them.

Or, more accurately, when it comes time to "put up" they recognize that military force is, more often than not, a very poor method of accomplishing anything.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Froggy 0]

Quote

Better that an entire nation of peaceful Christians cease to exist

I am assuming this is directly related to the current S. Ossetian conflict? If so, you have absolutely no freaking clue whatsoever what you are talking about -- it's called ignorance. Or, it could be much worse if you know exactly what you are talking about -- then it's called bullshitting...

--------------
We were not born to fly. And all we can do is to try not to fall...

[gkc1436 3]

them thar liberals hide in churchs on sundays.....
maybe you should get your bang stick and go get some.....
like that guy in tenn....

g

[riddler 0]

Quote

Do you approve of Russia invading Georgia?
Answer Yes or No.

Let's just say, after 7 years of invading and occupying parts of the middle-east, we've gotten used to it.

Ignore the nation-building, oil-chasing dictatorship behind the curtain.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Quote

Better that an entire nation of peaceful Christians cease to exist

I am assuming this is directly related to the current S. Ossetian conflict? If so, you have absolutely no freaking clue whatsoever what you are talking about -- it's called ignorance. Or, it could be much worse if you know exactly what you are talking about -- then it's called bullshitting...

I'm talking about Georgia.

According to the Almanac, they're 84% Orthodox.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107564.html

And Orthodox is "christian":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodoxy

Now what were you saying about ignorance?

[billvon 2,438]

Cut it out.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Better that an entire nation of peaceful Christians cease to exist

I am assuming this is directly related to the current S. Ossetian conflict? If so, you have absolutely no freaking clue whatsoever what you are talking about -- it's called ignorance. Or, it could be much worse if you know exactly what you are talking about -- then it's called bullshitting...

I'm talking about Georgia.

According to the Almanac, they're 84% Orthodox.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107564.html

And Orthodox is "christian":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodoxy

Now what were you saying about ignorance?

John I believe his complaint is with you claiming that Georgia will cease to exist, although I have no idea why it is significant that they are a Christian nation. Do you believe that improves their right to existence?

[FallingOsh 0]

Quote

John I believe his complaint is with you claiming that Georgia will cease to exist, although I have no idea why it is significant that they are a Christian nation. Do you believe that improves their right to existence?

The constant Christian and religion bashing on this site is obivous whether you're religious or not. I'm pretty sure John's comment was a shot at that, not that Christian nations have more of a right to exist.

--------------------------------------------------
Stay positive and love your life.

[Froggy 0]

Quote

Now what were you saying about ignorance

1. peaceful Christians
2. cease to exist

The fact that they are Orthodox Christians in the majority is obvious, I wasn't arguing that. But the rest of your passage that I quoted is, as I said, either ignorance or bullshitting.

--------------
We were not born to fly. And all we can do is to try not to fall...