jakee 1,257 #126 April 21, 2008 You are again worming your way away from your original statement - that religion is completely, and was always, only concerned with moral matters. You're pretending (and that's the only word for it) that because that is the way you use religion, that is all that religion was ever for, and the reason religion was invented. You are wrong.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #127 April 21, 2008 OK, I concede that some people use religion as a substitute for science. Do you concede that some believers do not? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #128 April 21, 2008 QuoteJakee, you and Vallerina should go and sit through a church service sometime. There is virtually no effort, time, or sermon devoted to trying to explain physical phenomena. I have been to a wide variety of Christian services (none that are fundamentalist.) Sure, much of the service is dedicated to "be nice to people" and "this is what makes a good person." A lot of it was listening to tone deaf people (including me) sing. A part of it was taking mythology and teaching it as fact. My guess is that it would be difficult to find a Sunday school that didn't teach the Adam and Eve story. Maybe you don't see teaching children incorrectly about the first humans or how the Earth was made as teaching physical phenomena.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,257 #129 April 21, 2008 QuoteOK, I concede that some people use religion as a substitute for science. Do you concede that some believers do not? Of course, that was never in question. What I've been driving at is your refusal to acknowledge that one of the fundamental purposes of religion for a very, very long time (and for many people still) has been to explain things that should fall squarely within the realm of science. Yes, it's dumb. Yes, it's misguided. No, not everyone uses religion for that purpose - but to say that it hasn't been an intrinsic part of religion for most of human history, or that it's nothing to do with what religion was intended for is wrong.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #130 April 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteOK, I concede that some people use religion as a substitute for science. Do you concede that some believers do not? Of course, that was never in question. What I've been driving at is your refusal to acknowledge that one of the fundamental purposes of religion for a very, very long time (and for many people still) has been to explain things that should fall squarely within the realm of science. Yes, it's dumb. Yes, it's misguided. No, not everyone uses religion for that purpose - but to say that it hasn't been an intrinsic part of religion for most of human history, or that it's nothing to do with what religion was intended for is wrong. OK, I agree with this, especially during times when science was very under-developed. But can you understand how the anti-religion arguments look from my point of view (a non-fundamentalist Christian)? (that the same yardstick used for science should be used for religion) It does seem to me that many atheists operate from an idea that all Christians hold a Fundamentalist philosophy. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maadmax 0 #131 April 21, 2008 ... Yes, Your spirit was created with a free will to commune with God. How would that work? Until today, such communication was a bit too unidirectional - I'm waiting for answers since I was a kid - or is that just a waiting loop I'm in?? *** Good question . As a point of first contact, most seekers and lovers of God find Him by the way He answers the longings of the spirit. I have observed over the years that God communicates in very unique and personal ways. One thing I believe and have experienced is summed up well in this phrase. " Ask and it shall be given to you, seek and you shall find, knock and it will be opened to you." _____________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #132 April 21, 2008 Quote We both believe that there only is one God, so all the prayers get forwarded to the same email address. I don't think a lot of Muslims will agree with you.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thirdworld19 0 #133 April 21, 2008 Quote Muslims & Christians worship the same God. We both believe that there only is one God, so all the prayers get forwarded to the same email address. They both believe in only one god, but Muslims must also accept Muhammad and Christians must accept Jesus. They have different guys running interference for them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #134 April 21, 2008 Quote OK, I concede that some people use religion as a substitute for science. The whole purpose of religion all the time was to CONTROL people. And that is what it is still used for.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #135 April 21, 2008 Quote I have observed over the years that God communicates in very unique and personal ways. One thing I believe and have experienced is summed up well in this phrase. " Ask and it shall be given to you, seek and you shall find, knock and it will be opened to you." How did you observe over those years? Which answers to your questions did you ever receive? I asked why and never got any reply; I sought, I never found. I knocked but no one called God opened. God did not answer/help/do anything for me. My family, husband, kids, friends, were there for me (more or less, like usual in life). That's all. They all have names but, no one's called God. Tell me to ask whom, to seek where and to find what; to knock at which door and who, perhaps, will open it for me? I'll get back to you upon return and report. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maadmax 0 #136 April 22, 2008 QuoteQuote I have observed over the years that God communicates in very unique and personal ways. One thing I believe and have experienced is summed up well in this phrase. " Ask and it shall be given to you, seek and you shall find, knock and it will be opened to you." How did you observe over those years? Which answers to your questions did you ever receive? I asked why and never got any reply; I sought, I never found. I knocked but no one called God opened. God did not answer/help/do anything for me. My family, husband, kids, friends, were there for me (more or less, like usual in life). That's all. They all have names but, no one's called God. Tell me to ask whom, to seek where and to find what; to knock at which door and who, perhaps, will open it for me? I'll get back to you upon return and report. *** You have summed up the dilemma of the spiritual life. The entry point for me was faith in God, His Word, and the work of Jesus Christ in resolving the barrier between God and man. I found the mechanics for living a vibrant fulfilled spiritual life explained in the Bible. The answer to the rest of your questions will take more time than is allowed here in this forum. Don't give up searching, it is worth the effort. _________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #137 April 22, 2008 A person can have a spiritual foundation, and even be religious, without teaching her children or believing the "mythology." My son has been going to church since he was little bitty. He understands that a lot of what's in the Bible isn't accurate. He understands that there are basic teachings of the church that are good, but that we know more now than we did 2000 and more years ago, so our understanding has changed. One can still have a spiritual life even though we can see flaws in some doctrine.-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites likearock 1 #138 April 22, 2008 QuoteQuoteOK, I concede that some people use religion as a substitute for science. Do you concede that some believers do not? Of course, that was never in question. What I've been driving at is your refusal to acknowledge that one of the fundamental purposes of religion for a very, very long time (and for many people still) has been to explain things that should fall squarely within the realm of science. I would say that is a secondary purpose of religion. The primary purpose of religion, especially if you break out of the narrow view of Judeo-Christianity-Islam, is to provide human beings with a transcendent experience. That's what draws the billions of people who are attracted to religion. And it's essentially the same thing that draws people to drugs, gambling, and skydiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,257 #139 April 22, 2008 QuoteBut can you understand how the anti-religion arguments look from my point of view (a non-fundamentalist Christian)? (that the same yardstick used for science should be used for religion) To some extent, yes. But it seems to me that you have been trying very hard to ignore the fact that part of the actual foundations of religion, part of the reason we have religion in the first place, is to explain the physics. OK, so you don't use it like that any more but it does speak volumes about the likelyhood of any of it being remotely true.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gjhdiver 0 #140 April 22, 2008 [reply It does seem to me that many atheists operate from an idea that all Christians hold a Fundamentalist philosophy. Some do. I'm not one of them. However, there is a commonly held belief amongst many Christians that America was founded on Judeo-Christians principles (it wasn't), and that therefore it's acceptable to try to enact laws based on superstition into public policy. It's insidious and dangerous, and obviously in conflict with the establisment clause of the constitution. Even a cursory read of the founding fathers letters and documents reveal their deep distrust of religion, to the point that some of them were agnostic, if not downright atheist. You only have to read about the persecution of the Quakers and Jews in the original colonies to realise that the founding fathers knew what they were doing when they built that wall. I'd like to keep it not only intact, but build it higher. In the meantime, lets teach proper science, and leave out the voodoo bullshit, and hopefully, organized religion will go the way of all the other cults over history. Atheists and agnostics are now the fastest growing section of the US population. It's an encouraging sign. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #137 April 22, 2008 A person can have a spiritual foundation, and even be religious, without teaching her children or believing the "mythology." My son has been going to church since he was little bitty. He understands that a lot of what's in the Bible isn't accurate. He understands that there are basic teachings of the church that are good, but that we know more now than we did 2000 and more years ago, so our understanding has changed. One can still have a spiritual life even though we can see flaws in some doctrine.-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likearock 1 #138 April 22, 2008 QuoteQuoteOK, I concede that some people use religion as a substitute for science. Do you concede that some believers do not? Of course, that was never in question. What I've been driving at is your refusal to acknowledge that one of the fundamental purposes of religion for a very, very long time (and for many people still) has been to explain things that should fall squarely within the realm of science. I would say that is a secondary purpose of religion. The primary purpose of religion, especially if you break out of the narrow view of Judeo-Christianity-Islam, is to provide human beings with a transcendent experience. That's what draws the billions of people who are attracted to religion. And it's essentially the same thing that draws people to drugs, gambling, and skydiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,257 #139 April 22, 2008 QuoteBut can you understand how the anti-religion arguments look from my point of view (a non-fundamentalist Christian)? (that the same yardstick used for science should be used for religion) To some extent, yes. But it seems to me that you have been trying very hard to ignore the fact that part of the actual foundations of religion, part of the reason we have religion in the first place, is to explain the physics. OK, so you don't use it like that any more but it does speak volumes about the likelyhood of any of it being remotely true.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjhdiver 0 #140 April 22, 2008 [reply It does seem to me that many atheists operate from an idea that all Christians hold a Fundamentalist philosophy. Some do. I'm not one of them. However, there is a commonly held belief amongst many Christians that America was founded on Judeo-Christians principles (it wasn't), and that therefore it's acceptable to try to enact laws based on superstition into public policy. It's insidious and dangerous, and obviously in conflict with the establisment clause of the constitution. Even a cursory read of the founding fathers letters and documents reveal their deep distrust of religion, to the point that some of them were agnostic, if not downright atheist. You only have to read about the persecution of the Quakers and Jews in the original colonies to realise that the founding fathers knew what they were doing when they built that wall. I'd like to keep it not only intact, but build it higher. In the meantime, lets teach proper science, and leave out the voodoo bullshit, and hopefully, organized religion will go the way of all the other cults over history. Atheists and agnostics are now the fastest growing section of the US population. It's an encouraging sign. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #141 April 22, 2008 Is it? Western culture is built on christian morals; even if you're not christian - if you take away christianity, you take away our Western morals, and you breed chaos. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #142 April 22, 2008 QuoteWestern culture is built on christian morals; even if you're not christian - if you take away christianity, you take away our Western morals, and you breed chaos. That's just bollocks. Just about all the laws ever passed are not even mentioned in the bible. And the ones that are would have you stoning homosexuals and adulterers to death. Sorry, but morals have got fuck all to do with religion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,646 #143 April 22, 2008 QuoteIs it? Western culture is built on christian morals; Maybe - Christian morals originated in earlier religions, along with many Christian myths. Quote if you take away christianity, you take away our Western morals, and you breed chaos. Strongly disagree with that.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #144 April 22, 2008 QuoteQuoteWestern culture is built on christian morals; even if you're not christian - if you take away christianity, you take away our Western morals, and you breed chaos. That's just bollocks. Just about all the laws ever passed are not even mentioned in the bible. And the ones that are would have you stoning homosexuals and adulterers to death. Sorry, but morals have got fuck all to do with religion. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/religion-morality/#TweCen Have a read of this. It studies a bit of what you said in your last sentance. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #145 April 22, 2008 People require moral guidance. Where have they got it from in the past? Where do they get it from now? Seems the old source hasn't been so popular in recent years. What would you recommend? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,257 #146 April 22, 2008 QuoteWestern culture is built on christian morals; even if you're not christian - No it's not. That is, as stated, bollocks. Quoteif you take away christianity, you take away our Western morals, Utter, complete, unadulterated, bullshit.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjhdiver 0 #147 April 22, 2008 Quote What would you recommend? Common fucking sense. I'm an atheist, but I don't require an imaginary friend to tell me it's wrong to kill, rape or steal. My own inner dialogue does that. That dialogue seems to have been very quiet in the Catholic church as it systematically allowed the sexual abuse of children, and subsequently threatened the victims and protected the pedophile priests. That Christian moral code seemed a bit lacking there don't you think ? Should have used my nice pagan rede, remember ? Be it harm none, do what thy wilt shall be the whole of the law If we all lived by this, we'd have no need for your corrupt religious "moral" code and associated supernatural babble. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #148 April 22, 2008 Quote What would you recommend? Try Robert A. Heinlein: (Paraphrased) 1) That which is good for you is morally superior to that which is not. 2) That which is good for your family is morally superior to that which is good for you. 3) That which is good for your community is morally superior to that which is good for your family. 4) That which is good for your country is morally superior to that which is good for your community. 5) That which is good for the species is morally superior to that which is good for your country. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #149 April 22, 2008 QuoteAtheists and agnostics are now the fastest growing section of the US population. It's an encouraging sign. I don't feel religion belongs in the government. I sure as hell don't want a theocracy, like some on the Religious Right seem to want sometimes. However, let's keep in mind that the most staunchly atheistic nations in recent history were also some of the most totalitarian. They essentially replaced worship of God with worship of the State. And in most of the (non-Islamic) world, it's been a hell of a long time since you could be arrested for speaking out & criticizing religion. But in the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, etc, you could be arrested for criticizing the government. I guess what I'm saying is there's always going to be totalitarian assholes out there, and if it isn't centered around religion it will be centered around something else. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #150 April 22, 2008 oh, and one other thing.... ....Who do atheists talk to when they're having sex? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
