An Atheist Speaks

[vortexring 0]

Please feel free to prove these beliefs wrong.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[jakee 1,262]

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Is there any need?

Here's what's just happened - you've made a very bold statement, which I've called bullshit on. You've demanded that I support my call of bullshit, while saying there's no need for you to support your original statement. Dude, for fucks sake!

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Apart from demonstrating your closed mind to the idea, I've no intention of changing your beliefs.

Closed mind? I've refused to accept a statement which you have absolutely failed to (and admitted that you cannot) back up with any form of logic, reason, evidence or analysis, only "My gut says so". That's not closed minded, that's common fucking sense.

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1) Our society is becoming ever more immoral, deceitful, selfish, individualistic, etc, etc.

2) The numbers of British people who believe in God, go to church, etc, have significantly reduced.

Simple as that.

Simple?

Here's an essay question for you, what other changes (apart from religion) has our society undergone in the last 200 years? I'll give you a guideline of 2000 words, but I think you'll run over.

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It's not the religion and believing in God that makes the individual good. It's how it effects the communities and society as a whole, hence my belief.

So religion does not make individuals good, or affect how well individuals can tell right from wrong. So why won't individuals, the people that make up society, be able to function en masse without religion?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Vallerina 2]

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1) Our society is becoming ever more immoral, deceitful, selfish, individualistic, etc, etc.

2) The numbers of British people who believe in God, go to church, etc, have significantly reduced.

Simple as that.

It's not the religion and believing in God that makes the individual good. It's how it effects the communities and society as a whole, hence my belief.

#1 That just means that (no offense) you are getting old. "Kids these days!!!!" Of course, it depends on how you looking morality. Maybe from one person's point of view, they see things as better nowadays since there is less racism than there was 60 years ago. Maybe another person sees things as being worse morality-wise since we weren't in a war 10 years ago.

#2 You could also make the case that since the proportion of Atheists in prison is less the proportion of Atheists in the population, being an Atheist keeps people out of prison (hence, Atheists are even MORE moral than the rest). However, correlation does not imply causation. Just because two conditions exist simultaneously does not mean one cause the other.

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It's how it effects the communities and society as a whole, hence my belief.

Religion can affect a community as a whole. For example, women getting harassed when walking into a Planned Parenthood....or homosexuals having to fear for their lives. To look at only the good things religion can do (soup kitches, shelters, etc) and not acknowledge the horrible things makes your opinion come across as one sided.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[vortexring 0]

Not at all. I spent considerable effort trying to explain the difficulty I have in substantiating my point, especially as you were unwilling to explain why it was bullshit in the first place. But I at least made an attempt. It's apparant you'd rather cry bullshit rather than discuss the subjects. Because I've now mentioned far more things that substantiate my original post which I feel is worthy of discussion.

The reference to your closed mind wasn't selective to my particular posts, but more a generalization. But you know that already.

Your acceptance of the statement has never been the issue. I mentioned that numerous times. This seems to a recurring theme with the little experience I've now recently had chatting with atheists. Is it a suspicion that I'm trying to change their beliefs and way of thinking? I couldn't really care.

I still feel you're deliberately choosing the easier points to address whilst perhaps avoiding others; to continue you're perception of being all knowing. So please, if you know so much, if you're so fucking certain, at least make an effort to substantiate your point of view.

Your essay questions a non-starter. This SC bollox is hard enough work. Still, I'm glad you found my statements of increased social immorality being related to reduced churchgoers as funny. But going back to your smartarse essay question. Your again avoiding constructive discussion of the subject. But that's generally what I've come to expect from you. Anyway, I stand by it. And I'll continue to do so until someone proves me wrong. Perhaps you'll make some effort then in regards to this; instead of simply gobbing off.

Religions not making individuals good? You've said that, not me. The point was religions effect on communities and societies - not individuals.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[jcd11235 0]

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The classic allegorical novel "Lord of the Flies" explains the need very well. Without an understanding of a higher order we revert to "survival of the fittest". Spiritual pursuit is what sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom.

The kids in that novel did some pretty awful things to avoid the wrath of the beastie. If anything Golding showed how far astray religion can lead people.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[vortexring 0]

Agh! I knew somebody would question statement 1 as being a matter of perspective! It's certainly an area ripe for debate for some people. But I feel it's either something you believe or don't - a bit like God, eh? Still, I'm certain a national poll would indicate a national perspective that supports statement 1.

Statement 2 is a fact.

I'm well aware of the horrible things which can happen through the misuse of mankinds application of religion. I wasn't that long ago in Afghanistan. The relation between the two statements is my theory. And that's all it is. If it's wrong, prove it to me.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[JackC 0]

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The point was religions effect on communities and societies - not individuals.

This is an article that was first publsihed in New Scentist magazine. It at least partially addresses your point. I thought it was an interesting read.

http://www.davidbyrne.com/journal/misc/new_scientist_1_28_06.php

[jcd11235 0]

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But I can read an interesting statement from your post: "Without any of that information I'll just stick with saying that I'm an atheist"

Although there are other forms of atheism, the most common I have encountered is essentially the attitude that, in lieu of any evidence of the existence of a supernatural higher being, there is no worthy reason to consider the possibility.

It's like taking the time and energy to worry about whether the Carrowolves are going to attack the vegetarians at the next full moon. (Note: a Carrowolve is the vegetable form of a werewolf, coming out only on nights of the full moon, and silently stalking vegetarians, especially vegans, only to hurl themselves through the air at supersonic speeds to pierce the heart of their unsuspecting prey.)

Had you ever given any thought to the existence of Carrowolves before? My guess is that you haven't, because there is absolutely zero evidence to suggest their existence. That's how atheists feel about supreme deities. If some credible evidence of the existence of YAHVEH (aka Allah), or some other supreme being, is found, most atheists will probably consider the possibility. Until that evidence is found, the subject really isn't worth their time, any more than pondering the existence of Carrowolves is.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[vortexring 0]

I do recognise the point you're making despite the fact billions of people throughout the world have, and continue to believe in a God of some form or other.

But Carrowolves? WTF?

Bit of a difference is there not?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[jcd11235 0]

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I do recognise the point you're making despite the fact billions of people throughout the world have, and continue to believe in a God of some form or other.

But Carrowolves? WTF?

Bit of a difference is there not?

Same amount of supporting evidence. (And intended to sound like a patently absurd suggestion)

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[vortexring 0]

I'm sure it is. I'll have a proper look when I've time - what I've seen so far is your normal intellectual type reasoning over subjects they're unable to answer properly.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[vortexring 0]

No. Not even google has heard of Carrowolves yet it has 434,000,000 entries for God.

Just about every culture has believed in some form of God.

So rest assured he can be considered more worthy of thought than your Carrowolves. Jesus!

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[jcd11235 0]

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No. Not even google has heard of Carrowolves yet it has 434,000,000 entries for God.

Just about every culture has believed in some form of God.

So rest assured he can be considered more worthy of thought than your Carrowolves. Jesus!

I doubt Google has. I just made up the concept. Try back in a month, and this page will likely be the top hit. Heck, try back in a couple thousand years, and you might even find more than one hit! That won't make them real, though.

Something like two thirds of Americans believed Iraq had weapons of mass destruction in early 2003. That the majority held the belief didn't make it true.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[maadmax 0]

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The classic allegorical novel "Lord of the Flies" explains the need very well. Without an understanding of a higher order we revert to "survival of the fittest". Spiritual pursuit is what sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom.

The kids in that novel did some pretty awful things to avoid the wrath of the beastie. If anything Golding showed how far astray religion can lead people***

On that point I agree. I am not defending religion and never have. What I am defending is the existence of spiritual truth and the consequence of its absence on the individual and society.

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[Royd 0]

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Sorry dude, I'll put my faith in science and reason. You can keep your imaginary friend.

So, are you admitting to something as silly as faith?

[Royd 0]

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We are not born into debt to Christ. Quite the opposite. All debts are paid.

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Christians assume a 'debt' needed to be paid in the first. They are mistaken.

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There is and has never been any debt. The assumption that there is/was, is the fundamental flaw in the entire christian argument.

Sort of like buying carbon credits to pay the debt for your sin of destroying the earth, but being able to live guilt free.

[Royd 0]

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There are lots of things that science can't explain. That doesn't invalidate it. Science is a method for exploring the world around us. Science is based on critical thinking and logic. Faith has no logic.

Yet, for the thousands, or is it millions of years that we've existed, we still can't get anything right.

We all should be living in a virtual paradise, what with the great intellect we all possess.
Could there be a reason that we all have blinders on our eyes, and regardless of how far we, in our self congratulatory way, advance, we are basically still digging through the dumpster, looking for scraps.

[beowulf 1]

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There are lots of things that science can't explain. That doesn't invalidate it. Science is a method for exploring the world around us. Science is based on critical thinking and logic. Faith has no logic.

Yet, for the thousands, or is it millions of years that we've existed, we still can't get anything right.

We all should be living in a virtual paradise, what with the great intellect we all possess.
Could there be a reason that we all have blinders on our eyes, and regardless of how far we, in our self congratulatory way, advance, we are basically still digging through the dumpster, looking for scraps.

Wow you certainly have a bleak view of the world. Why don't you just slit your rists and get over with?

I would like the think humanity is worth more then the picture you paint.

[Royd 0]

That doesn't mean there is no place for spirituality. Spirituality exists,

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No it doesn't.

So you wake up on the weekend with a sweet breeze blowing through the window, the sun shining, and the day is at your feet.
[Excuse me, I forgot you're in England]


Across the street, the old, arthiritic woman wakes up to just another miserable day, hoping for the day when she no longer wakes up.

Are both views real or is yours just a figment of your imagination?

[Royd 0]

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There are lots of things that science can't explain. That doesn't invalidate it. Science is a method for exploring the world around us. Science is based on critical thinking and logic. Faith has no logic.

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Yet, for the thousands, or is it millions of years that we've existed, we still can't get anything right.

We all should be living in a virtual paradise, what with the great intellect we all possess.
Could there be a reason that we all have blinders on our eyes, and regardless of how far we, in our self congratulatory way, advance, we are basically still digging through the dumpster, looking for scraps.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Wow you certainly have a bleak view of the world. Why don't you just slit your rists and get over with?

I would like the think humanity is worth more then the picture you paint.

Apparently you missed the point. You, who sing the praises of, and worship at the altar of science, talk about how it surpasses all other thought processes. It is the supreme god above all else.
Why is science allowing children to starve in Africa? Why do we still have uncured diseases?

Here's something to chew on. Many people like to blame religion for millions of deaths throughout the years. I might be able to beat you to death with a Bible, but I can't cut your head off with one. I need a metallurgist to extract something from a rock and form it into a sword.
All that gunpowder looks purdy in fireworks, but it took a man of science to figure out that it could push a projectile through a barrel.

I love the look of those mushroom clouds, but science really screwed that one up.

[Royd 0]

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You are gambling just as much as I, since the god you chose may not be the correct one. Maybe you've really pissed off Shiva, Vishnu, or Freya.

Those Unitarians got their asses covered, then.

[jcd11235 0]

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I am not defending religion and never have. What I am defending is the existence of spiritual truth and the consequence of its absence on the individual and society.

If that's the case, then I must admit to misunderstanding many of your posts. Could you please precisely define spiritual truth as you are using it?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Royd 0]

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The whole purpose of religion all the time was to CONTROL people.
And that is what it is still used for.

Can you say USSR?

[beowulf 1]

You seem to think of "Science" as a person. Science is a method or a process. How humans use science is up to humans. Your whole post is ridiculus. Where did I ever say that science would cure all diseases? or solve the issues of poverty or starvation? Science solves all of that just as well as any deity. Why because science isn't a person, just like there are no deitys.

[Royd 0]

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You seem to think of "Science" as a person. Science is a method or a process. How humans use science is up to humans. Your whole post is ridiculus. Where did I ever say that science would cure all diseases? or solve the issues of poverty or starvation? Science solves all of that just as well as any deity. Why because science isn't a person, just like there are no deitys.

Don't you consider it the be all, end all. Without some scientific explanation, then things can't possibly exist. You can't prove that humans are a cut above the rest of the animal kingdom and actually possess souls and spirits, so you dismiss it, out of hand.
I'm saying that in spite of the thousands of years of progress, we still don't know squat, in the whole scheme of things, yet some, with their overly inflated egos [where do those come from?] disregard anything that doesn't fit into their little mold of how things should be.