An Atheist Speaks

[jcd11235 0]

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I was just recently reading about a couple of experiments that credibly offer doubt regarding the existence of free will.

If there is no free will then there is no value in piety. There is also no value in accomplishment.
Only hedonism remains.

Before we could jump to that conclusion, we would have to determine the value of the perception of free will, assuming, for argument's sake, that free will doesn't exist.

Still, there is much to be said for happiness being the single most important thing in life, the real measure of how well one has lived.

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[JackC 0]

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Nor am I, but what it does do is make it clear that free will is not a given. Maybe it exists, maybe it doesn't.

I don't think it even does that. There's nothing in there to suggest that a decision that you make is anything other than your decision. It does prove that the subconcious is tremendously important in that process, but we knew that already. It also proves that some people make decisions without conciously thinking about them, well we already knew that too.

The other problem is that since we already know that it is possible to make decisions from the subconcious (aka muscle memory), a simple task like button pushing could quite easily be relegated to the subconcious without the subject even realising. How often have you driven home and spent the entire time thinking about what you're going to have for dinner, or the overdue project at work or whatever else? And driving is a hell of a lot harder than pushing a button. But if someone pulled out in front of you, you'd still hit the brakes even if you weren't conciously thinking "hit the brakes" at that exact moment.

I don't think pointless button pushing is a good test because it is already predisposed to subconcious action. You'd need some form of "information -> process -> action" test. Playing whack-a-mole for example.

No, I think it just proves that the subconcious is significant in the decision making process. That's a good thing since if it wasn't you'd have to conciously think about the person pulling out in front of you, remember the process you need to deal with that and then implement each part of that process as a concious act. By which time you've collided.

I think that what we think of as the concious mind is actually just taking the thought process and pushing it thought the part of the brain needed to verbalise it. Concious thought is usually associated with some kind of internal dialogue. And the brain is capable of much more than just talking to itself.

But then I'm a physicist not a neuroscientist.

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I am inclined to believe that the latter is the case, if only because I have faith that one day mankind really will discover a Unified Field Theory, even if it does not occur in my lifetime.

I don't think free will and unified field theories are related concepts.

[jakee 1,276]

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I was just recently reading about a couple of experiments that credibly offer doubt regarding the existence of free will.

If there is no free will then there is no value in piety. There is also no value in accomplishment.
Only hedonism remains.

Yes, but you wouldn't be able to choose it

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jcd11235 0]

I think your conclusions could be the basis of a hypothesis worthy of testing, but I don't think they are any more (perhaps not even as) credible as the conclusion that there is a real possibility that free will does not exist.

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I am inclined to believe that the latter is the case, if only because I have faith that one day mankind really will discover a Unified Field Theory, even if it does not occur in my lifetime.

I don't think free will and unified field theories are related concepts.

I would suggest you don't fully understand the implications of a Unified Field Theory. If everything can be predicted based on knowledge of initial conditions, the implication is that everything is predestined.

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[nerdgirl 0]

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Thanks Marg. I'm not convinced it actually proves that free will doesn't exist, maybe just redefines it a bit.

You’re right, because as we know it’s hard to prove a negative.

It does provide information that challenges (or “credibly offer(s) doubt”) on the conception of free will, particularly the popular conception of free will as a supra-natural (not “super-”) process or trait.

The research cited offers insight into the cognitive and neurological processes underlying decision-making processes. It suggests what are potentially more incendiary challenges to teleological arguments (i.e., ‘divine’ purpose or order as evidence of a supernatural deity) than evolution. (Of course, if one asserts that the ultimate creative power the Universe sparked the Big Bang & let the physical processes unfold & flow from there under constraints of physical law, neither evolution nor the implications of Haynes et al.'s work are irreconcilable with theism.)

Yes, the underlying neuroscience is incredibly complex (10^11 neurons) and neuronal connections (synapses, 10^14 in a human brain) have to be formed at some point and synapses can/do reform (“plasticity”).

The basis for the understanding of neurochemistry came out of work on giant squid axon – a species of Atlantic squid that literally has a really big neuron. No one’s is going to argue that the neurochemistry of a squid, even one with one really big neuron, equals the complex neurochemistry of the mammalian brain. It was, however, a squid neuron that led to understanding of ion channels, actions potentials, i.e., almost everything that underlies modern neurochemistry.

Similarly, no one (I hope!) is going to argue that a “button push” test (the underlying neurological process may not be so ‘simple’) equals the complexity of deciding what to have for lunch, much less weighing ethical decisions. It's actually a great proof of concept test, as the ambiguities are minimized. For proof of concept one needs to start with a simple system, i.e., control the independent & dependent variables. And the test has precedent in other neurological experiments, i.e., other data for comparison.

Andrew Huxley (half-brother of Brave New World’s Aldous) and Alan Hodgkin began their 1963 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine winning research on the giant squid axon before WWII; Haynes, et al.'s work was published last week. Today Huxley-Hodgkin is today taught in the first week or two of an upper division undergraduate intro to neurobio/neurochem class.

It’s fascinating from a perspective of offering physical, testable information to query against the theological and philosophical arguments. Are there degrees of free will? If “free will” is a physiological product, what does that say w/r/t the rights of animals, particularly those whose brain structure is close to ours?

There also are ponderous and real policy question at the intersection of emerging technology and security/international affairs that the kind of research I posted further illuminates. More information allows a more informed decision-making process ... perhaps ironically (?)

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[JackC 0]

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I would suggest you don't fully understand the implications of a Unified Field Theory. If everything can be predicted based on knowledge of initial conditions, the implication is that everything is predestined.

Really? I have a PhD in that crap. Trust me, you've got unified field theory confused with determinism.

[jcd11235 0]

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Trust me, you've got unified field theory confused with determinism.

You're half right. I was confusing UFT with Theory Of Everything. Apparently, while similar, they are not identical.

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[JackC 0]

Sorry but you're still thinking of determinism and Heisenberg clobbered that one with the uncertainty principle.

[nerdgirl 0]

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If there is no free will then there is no value in piety. There is also no value in accomplishment.
Only hedonism remains.

Before we could jump to that conclusion, we would have to determine the value of the perception of free will, assuming, for argument's sake, that free will doesn't exist.

Still, there is much to be said for happiness being the single most important thing in life, the real measure of how well one has lived.

Hmmm ...

fMRI can be used to 'measure'/correlate emotions, brain activity, and even location of brain activity associated with certain emotions, e.g., one study and another & one more.

One could design a test to ask (hypothesis) do the more "happy"/more hedonistic areas of the brain respond faster (i.e., greater degree of conscious 'free will') than the other areas of the brain? Thereby potentially demonstrating the happiness & hedonism requires more conscious 'free will' than other pursuits.

Think I'm going to have to pull out a jacket w/leather patches on the elbows and a glass of scotch (or whatever philosophers are 'supposed' to drink )

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[jcd11235 0]

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Sorry but you're still thinking of determinism and Heisenberg clobbered that one with the uncertainty principle.

Are you suggesting that the Uncertainty Principle applied at the instant of the Big Bang? I don't see how that could be possible, since the singularity "contained" all space, time and mass. Position and Momentum are non-sensical at that point.

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[JackC 0]

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It does provide information that challenges (or “credibly offer(s) doubt”) on the conception of free will, particularly the popular conception of free will as a supra-natural (not “super-”) process or trait.

Sorry Marg but I really don't think it does anything to free will. The experiment can be explained quite happily without doing away with or modifiying the idea of free will in any way. It just says that the subconcious plays a part in the process. As far as I can see, the decision isn't taken away from the person and there is nothing to stop conciously overriding any subconcious decision made.

[JackC 0]

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Are you suggesting that the Uncertainty Principle applied at the instant of the Big Bang?

Probably, yes.

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I don't see how that could be possible, since the singularity "contained" all space, time and mass. Position and Momentum are non-sensical at that point.

A relationship between position and momentum is not the only way you can write the HUP.

[jcd11235 0]

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One could design a test to ask (hypothesis) do the more "happy"/more hedonistic areas of the brain respond faster (i.e., greater degree of conscious 'free will') than the other areas of the brain? Thereby potentially demonstrating the happiness & hedonism requires more conscious 'free will' than other pursuits.

Without free will, the conscious pursuit pursuit of happiness would be impossible, I suppose.

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Think I'm going to have to pull out a jacket w/leather patches on the elbows and a glass of scotch (or whatever philosophers are 'supposed' to drink )

Care to share some of that scotch (or whatever you decide to drink)?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[nerdgirl 0]

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The experiment can be explained quite happily without doing away with or modifiying the idea of free will in any way. It just says that the subconcious plays a part in the process. As far as I can see, the decision isn't taken away from the person and there is nothing to stop conciously overriding any subconcious decision made.

While the muscle memory analogy works in popular conversation, the experiment was designed so that it was proof of concept test of conscious decision-making process: "we directly investigated which regions of the brain predetermine conscious intentions and the time at which they start shaping a motor decision."

Do you really think the researchers didn't think of mitigating possible subconscious influences? What you are proposing was part of the criticism of Libet's hypothesis from the 1970s - that's what is so notable about this work.

VR/Marg

p.s. please provide your counter-explanation w/r/t the actual experiment, i.e., the observations, correlations, significance, and time elements of activity in the brain's supplementary motor area (SMA), the primary motor cortex, the frontopolar cortex, & the precuneus/posterior cingulate.

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[jcd11235 0]

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A relationship between position and momentum is not the only way you can write the HUP.

That's true. It can also be written:

delta E · delta t >= h/(4 · pi)

Are you suggesting that Energy was created during some period of time delta t immediately following the singularity?

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[JackC 0]

Marg, I'm a physicist not a neuroscientist so I can't help you with references. All I can do is try to think about sources of ambiguity in the experiment and the consequences for free will. I'll try to get back to you when it isn't beer o'clock.

[kallend 1,678]

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The basis for the understanding of neurochemistry came out of work on giant squid axon – a species of Atlantic squid that literally has a really big neuron. No one’s is going to argue that the neurochemistry of a squid, even one with one really big neuron, equals the complex neurochemistry of the mammalian brain. It was, however, a squid neuron that led to understanding of ion channels, actions potentials, i.e., almost everything that underlies modern neurochemistry.
VR/Marg

It was also squid neuron that led to some nerve-gas antidotes, since squids apparently possess a nerve-gas hydrolyzing enzyme in their nervous system.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[nerdgirl 0]

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Marg, I'm a physicist not a neuroscientist so I can't help you with references. All I can do is try to think about sources of ambiguity in the experiment and the consequences for free will. I'll try to get back to you when it isn't beer o'clock.

While references are always welcome and most-definitely appreciated, that's not the crux.

As I wrote, the speculative sources of ambiguity you proposed are reasonable within a general discussion. The assertions, however, are neither accurate nor precise w/r/t the experiment and reported results cited.

The system (i.e., the brain) is neither as simple nor is the specific experiment as ambiguous.

And again, it's an example that fulfills the criterion of experiments that "credibly offer doubt" ... because we're not proving a negative. All of the speculative extrapolations -- mine, yours, or anyone else's -- to the implications for theological, philosophical and legal arguments are just that - speculative.

Give this work the 70 years that Huxley-Hodgkin’s work has had, and it may be of undergraduate curricula, or it may be a footnote.

W/r/t (speculative) policy implications, one does not need Haynes et al.'s work to find examples: Neuroscience and the Law: Brain, Mind, and the Scales of Justice.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

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It was also squid neuron that led to some nerve-gas antidotes, since squids apparently possess a nerve-gas hydrolyzing enzyme in their nervous system.

Yes, squid type DFPase. Been investigated as therapeutic countermeasure and active part of decontaminants for Soman (GD) and Sarin (GB) nerve agents (breaks the P-F bond). IIRC, it was originally isolated from squid saliva (produced in the salivary glands as well giant axon).

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[rynodigsmusic 0]

Sorry, I didnt get to see the video, but I also have a thought for you all. God is invisible, this is true, but what there are other things which are invisible as well but seem to completey run our lives. Desire, Inspiration, Hope, Love, just to name a few. Do I need evidence that those things are real or is it possible that I can just "feel it"? For those who follow Jesus this goes beyond just posiblity because we have felt the love ourselves and therefore cannot deny it.

Just consider for a moment that there is such a thing as truth. That there is truth in life and in between what is true and what is false is a line called love. Love seeks to be filled within us, the capacity of which belongs not to ourselves but to love, as love was here before you or I right? So here is this powerful force which drives our desire and fuels on inspiration of its own being, but anything that gets in its way is an enemy and therefore they will either be swallowed up by its power or freed. I think we can at least all agree that love can be painful, very painful, but can also be the source of pure Joy and even ecstasy. Loves desire, at is very nature is to be received, shared, and to prosper in both the giver and the reciever, but it has another desire that Jesus brought to us, one that we really didnt see before and is still in the world, it wants to save and heal, it doesnt desire to break down or destroy, that is what it works against. This healing cannot have power in our lives without us being broken, afraid, hurt ect...Oh I could write forever...but...

What I see is so many people claiming that I am this or I am that in regards to what they believe or dont beleive about God, but the problem with it all is there is a truth somewhere, and so I propose with all of our talks about who is right and who is wrong, that those who are on the side of truth speak up a little and try to understand it. Lets not forget the very message of Jesus is to save those who are slaves to sin, so its the worst sinners who prosper the most love in grace. In truth, sin is like an addiction, we are enslaved to it, we love it, we are afraid to leave it for FEAR that life will not be as good. In essence, we lock ourselves into a prison, once the door is unlocked and we are set free, we dont want to go, we want to stay. I am talking to skydivers right? The fearless, the Life livers, the Free? Well I believe as does Jesus that fear the thing you (I would say we, but I dont consider myself a skydiver)all claim to control is the very thing that is running your lives. Again, this is just what Jesus says.

Let me tell you from personal experience, since now I am probably considered a fool amongst alot of you, that I never found love in someone or something, I although we think that love is found somewhere else, but the truth is that is found and released from inside our very own hearts, and the objects be it skydiving, or a person is just a key. For me the key to my very own heart was in the hands of Jesus, and since I have felt this love, as many other Christians have as well, I cannot deny it, becasue I have felt it. Its like you with skydiving, and someone coming up to and saying that you dont like it. How can that be, if you really do like it and some of you absolutely love it.

Just a thought

"We didn't start the fire"

[beowulf 1]

I think you have a good imagination.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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There are lots of things that science can't explain. That doesn't invalidate it. Science is a method for exploring the world around us. Science is based on critical thinking and logic. Faith has no logic.

Faith has no logic? that is very interesting to me my freind especially coming from a skydiver!!! So when you jump out your not hoping that everything will work out for you? Thats all faith is my friend, you see the joy of your jump, jump, then you hope with possible death right at your door, and your hope is filled with that joy when you land. Is it not logical to believe that you will land when you jump out? I hope so, otherwise I would be sort of concerned! It is funny the things we can accomplish when we believe, but somehow the method of science isnt what brought me to the exit door is it? So it seems to me that belief and faith have all the power in the universe. It is after all mans mind that will destroy it. Something that goes against logic actually, why would we destroy our own habitat? Let me guess, thats Gods fault right? I would suggest before any of you jump again to at least read the Gospel, you have the choice to ignore it. But, I wouldnt want to lead you to the truth or anything!

First, it is our minds that give us the power right? I mean thats what science is all about. Those with faith choose to give that power back in exchange for true power, Logic may describe this as humbleness. Those who are humble and who submit to themselves not being the grandest thing on the earth are in a position to recieve the wisdom of the beginning, which if we understand correctly, is actually the wisdom of the end as well, as wisdom has revealled itself more and more. But if we know already that the wisdom of the beginning is the wisdom of the end, then why not just find the wisdom of the beginning? Its like that song simple man, and it is the very wisdom that Jesus came with. The wisdom that gives all live and all power to the beginning and the end. Those who choose faith feel it is logical to seek the power of the beginning which coincedentally is love. Had we stayed with that, the world would be grander, as it is, we had something working against this simple but powerful force all along. Call it the ego, call it evil. All man does is seek to prove everything and that is where our power is lost. Why do we spend all of our time and energy seeking to prove something anyway? Isnt life way way too short for that?

Another thing, this girl who loves to dis believe in God talks about finding Joy. Just a question for thinkers, but doesnt joy and hope combine? If she doesnt believe in God, how does she have hope for life after this life? Another thing, why do people think that desiring a righteous life and living it is so boring or un-rewarding? I lived full on in sin and it got me nothing but heartache in the end. A life that is driven by love is adaptable to anything and much more able to deal with disasters ect... This girl also said that she loves her family, but hasnt life shown us that in an instant we can lose that? Then where are we? Shouldnt we try to connect with loves source, be it in your brain (as it is with some of you) or in your heart, where it is for most of us? Jesus' message is I love you and I want you, and wouldnt it be wise to at least listen to the wisdom of those who adopt the wisdom of the ancients? We need to understand that nothing we do is new, where the excitement in life is for me at least is in knowing there truly is a God (Jesus says God is spirit) and knowing that the God of all things made feels it important enough to make sure I know that I am loved by him.

When you see a beautiful sunset, sunrise, or majestic scenery, you see beauty right? (The fluids are flowing in your brain for all you science people),. but nonetheless, you feel beauty, a powerful almost indescribable connection. That is God showing you how beautiful you are to him, that connection is very powerful and if you let it, can show you the greater things in this life.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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I think you have a good imagination.

Thank you my friend, truly, but it should be known that my imagination is dangerous, you should have seen the way I used to think! I consider this imagination now as a gift of the Gospel, but again, thank you for you kind words, usually truth makes people angry.

"We didn't start the fire"

[beowulf 1]

Truth? all I have read from you is ramblings of what you imagine to be true. You can ramble on all you want, but it doesn't make it any more valid. You have no evidence to back up anything you have written about. It's all based on your feelings. If you were born to muslim parents you would be saying the same things about Mohamed instead of Jesus.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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If you simply rely on your intellect and your senses and you don't believe in God, nothing I can say will change your mind

The problem with not relying on your intellect and senses is that it opens you up to being fooled and tricked. Anything else is arbitrary at best. Relying on feelings is very unreliable. You feel that there is a god and you faith in that feeling, but you don't actually know that there is a god.

See, this is the part you guys are missing and this to me is the tragedy of the faithless. I do know there is a God, and the reason I do is because I have felt the power of the spirit and continue to be overwhelmed by it to this very day. Jesus says that faith starts out almost non-existant, but it grows into something marvelous and magnificent.

We can debate God to all ends, but the truth is still there, the power of God is grace and if I could give you what is in me, you would believe too, but I cant, its not mine to give. It is a gift given through repentance for those who are tired of living a mediocre half-hearted life and who recognize the absolute reality of death and who allow themselves to fear openly.

A heroin addict fears the truth, that he is an addict, but it is only the truth that will set him free. This is the path of a heroin addict, a little extreme, but just as true. Any addict, if you have ever been one, lives in complete and utter denial until the very thing he fears most sets him free. Of course not all at once, but Jesus didnt say that we could peer into our treasure from the beginning, he said, find it first, unlock it first, put your trust in me first and see for yourself where I take you and what I give you.

So you see, Fear and Truth are in the same flow, so of course you cannot acknowledge the truth my friend, you dont have any Fear of God. But this is a great tragedy and this is what spiritual justice is all about and why I am risking everyone liking me to tell you about it so that you might think a little deeper and find the greatest of gifts as so many of us have. I have no choice as what is in me desires to be shared. I realize though that many are still in the search and for that I hope you never stop searching. And dont forget, you havent gone as far as you think, this goes for everyone, there is always grace for those who turn.

I can say with full truth in the sight of God that I live a much fuller, much happier life now. Where as before all I felt was lonlieness, darkness and the world just sort of lost its glow you know? But now, I do live in the light and for once I am truly happy and I see things so much more beautifully now. But, thats just my testimony. Tell us something lovely about your life and focus your search there. I believe that everyone who follows their heart will find what the heart desires no matter where it leads you.

So sorry about the length, I type sort of fast!

"We didn't start the fire"