Trophy Hunting

[CornishChris 5]

I watched 'Louis Theroux's African Hunting Holiday' on BBC2 the other night. It features the inimitable Louis Theroux exploring the world of African Trohpy hunting.

A brief explanation: Several farms in Africa have now turned themselves into private hunting lodges. They breed animals with the express purpose of killing them for sport. These animals range from Warthogs, Zebra and Impala all the way up to Lions and even Rhinos. Most of the clients come from the US and they pay per kill. A lion will set you back US$50-100k and an impala about US$2,000. In some cases when the animal is killed the meat is given to local villagers.

I thought that the show was incredible, but most stuff Louis Theroux does is. It was obvious that he found it distasteful but he seemed to be trying to understand, although he was unable to make a kill himself.

I have done a bit of shooting, mainly pheasant and rabbit, but never just for the 'sport' of killing. I don't get the idea of shooting something so you can sit next to it for photos and people describing dead animals as beautiful makes my skin crawl... I am not sure that breeding lions just to kill them is ethical but on the other hand some of the species they are 'selling' have been bought back from the brink of extinction just to be hunted...

I would be interested in your thoughts on this.

You can see the whole show on BBC iPlayer: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/page/item/b009sj0c.shtml?src=ip_potpw

And clips on http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/noise/?programme=louis_theroux

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[Erroll 49]

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It was obvious that he found it distasteful...

I find it equally distasteful. I live in (South) Africa and the African wildlife should be part of our heritage - not trophies for rich egotistical hunters from America.

I recently saw a program on ESPN about a wellknown bow hunter (I forget his name now - maybe Tom Miranda?), hunting in Southern Africa. He was sitting in his tree hide when this absolutely magnificent Gemsbok with 6-7 ft horns came walking up. The hunter positively gushed at the majesty and beauty of the animal, and then promptly shot and killed it.

Sad. Very sad.

[DZJ 0]

I've not seen the programme (though will probably watch it when I get a chance) but this strikes me as just another example of capitalism doing its thing. As long as there are rich people happy to fork out the dosh for the chance of plugging an endangered species, they'll be a much more powerful incentive than just conservationism in preventing their ultimate extinction.

(Which isn't to say I'm not all for conservation, and from what I've heard of this business it seems vaguely ludicrous to call it 'hunting' at all).

[rushmc 18]

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I watched 'Louis Theroux's African Hunting Holiday' on BBC2 the other night. It features the inimitable Louis Theroux exploring the world of African Trohpy hunting.

A brief explanation: Several farms in Africa have now turned themselves into private hunting lodges. They breed animals with the express purpose of killing them for sport. These animals range from Warthogs, Zebra and Impala all the way up to Lions and even Rhinos. Most of the clients come from the US and they pay per kill. A lion will set you back US$50-100k and an impala about US$2,000. In some cases when the animal is killed the meat is given to local villagers.

I thought that the show was incredible, but most stuff Louis Theroux does is. It was obvious that he found it distasteful but he seemed to be trying to understand, although he was unable to make a kill himself.

I have done a bit of shooting, mainly pheasant and rabbit, but never just for the 'sport' of killing. I don't get the idea of shooting something so you can sit next to it for photos and people describing dead animals as beautiful makes my skin crawl... I am not sure that breeding lions just to kill them is ethical but on the other hand some of the species they are 'selling' have been bought back from the brink of extinction just to be hunted...

I would be interested in your thoughts on this.

You can see the whole show on BBC iPlayer: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/page/item/b009sj0c.shtml?src=ip_potpw

And clips on http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/noise/?programme=louis_theroux

I will not defend or condem as I have no idea about this and it is not something I wish to do. I hunt pheasant for the challenge but only if I am with someone who will eat it. (I have not been hunting in 6 or 8 years)

But some questions comes to mind.

How many people make a living from doing this? How important is this business to the locals?

What would be the impact of shutting this kind of operations down?

anybody know? dit the the program address this?

Thanks

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Nightingale 0]

If the meat is eaten every time, especially if it's given to people who are hungry, and the killing of the animal is no different from a regular hunt (no torture), I don't have a problem with it. The animals are being bred to be killed, and are livestock, not wild creatures. Taking them from the wild for a canned hunt would be very different.

That said, I couldn't bring myself to kill anything... I even escort insects outside rather than squish them. If I had to kill it myself, I'd be a vegetarian.

[CornishChris 5]

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animals are being bred to be killed, and are livestock, not wild creatures.

How far can you take this argument? Could we breed humans to hunt specifically, if they never lived in the wild? Just a hypothetical question of course.

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[Andrewwhyte 1]

My concern is not for the animals, but for the hunter. Killing for the sake, no, the joy of it in itself indicates a flaw in the character of the perpetrator.

[JackC 0]

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animals are being bred to be killed, and are livestock, not wild creatures.

How far can you take this argument?

I think that certain types of hunting should be in the wild. Wild chocolate for instance is much better than the stuff in vending machines. Plus hunting for it is quite rewarding. First you must stalk your quarry, then you must distract the guardian of said chocolate by throwing his mousemat across the office, and then you grab that snack and flee.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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animals are being bred to be killed, and are livestock, not wild creatures.

How far can you take this argument? Could we breed humans to hunt specifically, if they never lived in the wild? Just a hypothetical question of course.

In the sense of true fairness, why not?

I hunt, I hunt for as many kinds of aninals as I can afford to travel for.

That being said it does limit me to the midwest for now.

I only hunt for meat, if a trophy buck happens along, so be it, if not, I could care less.

I have two large 8 point racks in my garage on a shelf, one was shot with a rifle, the other was killed with a knife.

If I had the money to travel and hunt so called trophy game I would, but there are animals I do not want to hunt.

In hunting trophy animals, if the animal is being hunted through careful and meticulous conservation efforts I have no problem with it.

What I have a problem with is poaching.

The extent of what happened before the hunting lodge industry got going in Africa was just plain criminal, and inhumane.

I loved knowing that there were out of work soldiers hunting the poachers down like the vermin they were.

Unfortunately that prgram was terminated after it became known to the world, and their hand wringing media.

The ivory trade, along with that of the rhino horn, and body parts of truly majestic beasts was a crime to be dealt with by deadly force.

If hunting as we see it now can reverse decades of poaching and extinction, and re-populate the wild areas that are now being decimated yet by the poached meat markets, I am all for it.

I hope some of you will take the opportunity to read and fully comprehend what I am saying, rather that immediately denouncing it as "rubbish"

[freethefly 6]

Canned hunts are for those who have no business in the woods with the rest of us. I wouldn't go on one and I only kill what I am going to eat. If a trophy buck is making the rubs that I am watching, then he is all mine and all the better!

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Amazon 7]

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I find it equally distasteful. I live in (South) Africa and the African wildlife should be part of our heritage - not trophies for rich egotistical hunters from America.

Would it be better for you if it were limited to egotistical English "gentlemen"... or the rich South Africans??

[warpedskydiver 0]

I agree on canned hunts, the ones in this country are serving no purpose whatsoever.

Of course here we do not have the poaching problems of the African continent, and far more resources to protect game animals, and prosecute offenders.

Black bears are very much at risk here due to the chinese population becoming more financially able to pay for poached bear gall bladder.

The poachers should be punished the same way they killed the animal.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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Canned hunts are for those who have no business in the woods with the rest of us. I wouldn't go on one and I only kill what I am going to eat. If a trophy buck is making the rubs that I am watching, then he is all mine and all the better!

We talked about this before, and I think we are both in agreement.

I am pro hunting, and pro conservation.

They should exist to work hand in hand.

To me there is no honor in shooting an animal that is fenced in.

But in some of the very large hunting reserves in africa, they are nearly as large, or larger than many of our national parks.

[freeflybella 0]

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My concern is not for the animals, but for the hunter. Killing for the sake, no, the joy of it in itself indicates a flaw in the character of the perpetrator.

Best answer so far. By far.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[Erroll 49]

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I find it equally distasteful. I live in (South) Africa and the African wildlife should be part of our heritage - not trophies for rich egotistical hunters from America.

Would it be better for you if it were limited to egotistical English "gentlemen"... or the rich South Africans??

Nice try, Jean, but I'm not taking your bait. The article specifically mentioned clients from the US, hence my reference to Americans.

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Most of the clients come from the US and they pay per kill. A lion will set you back US$50-100k and an impala about US$2,000.

[Amazon 7]

The American "gentlemen" are just following a LONG tradition set by the English "gentlemen" and others in the area going back well over 100 years. I have hunted all my life and have taken more than most. As long as the meat is not wasted and the practice is on huge tracts of land where there is some semblance of a chase( not that I would go for this kind of hunt) I see no problem with it. As several have pointed out, the owners have a vested interest in keeping a viable herd and protects the animals from the wanton poaching that is occuring worldwide.

[Erroll 49]

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...protects the animals.....

Have you heard about the Killing fields of Zimbabwe?

Some quotes:

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In this green field of bush with young sprouting Mopani trees were twenty plus elephant carcasses and bones scattered everywhere.

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This killing field is no more than a few hundred metres from Kazuma Hunting Lodge. Kazuma Hunting Lodge? But there is not supposed to be any hunting in Kazuma. Well that’s changed.

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Behind the bar, we found the visitors book. The vast majority are Americans boasting of their successes:
“Shot the big four in 10 days”
“An 80 pounder on the first day”
“We came to the place of the elephants. Secured a 65 pounder, 43" sable and a 7' leopard was the icing on the cake."

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I feel deeply saddened at the trophy hunters’ brazen bragging and their evident lack of understanding, but it was this entry that turned my sadness to rage:
“169 elephants in 8 days. Nowhere comes close”.

(emphasis mine)


Shooting a whitetail (after a semblence of a chase) is not quite the same as wholesale slaugther in the name of 'Trophy hunting'.

Alas, you too won't understand.

[LongWayToFall 0]

Its too bad those guys are killing a whole bunch of elephants. But don't you think that if there was a hunting area where the animal population was closely monitored, and only one or two were taken at a time, that it would be alright? Humans used to kill and eat animals everyday. I think that people who still practice this are being responsible for their own consumption of meat, not sadistic mofos who enjoy cruelty.

What if a hunter decides, hey, I have been hunting and eating deer and fowl for some time now, I wonder what buffalo is like to kill and eat? What about elephant? Or Lion? Don't you think that they should have the opportunity in life to do this?
I do, and as long as it is done responsibly, without destroying the population of some animal.
Besides, $100,000 for an elephant? DAMN. That has got to do some good for the local economy. The government should impose a tax on it and take 3/4s

[Erroll 49]

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But don't you think that if there was a hunting area where the animal population was closely monitored, and only one or two were taken at a time, that it would be alright?

I live in Africa. I know about wildlife, endangered species, conservation, culling, and so on. I am a keen angler. I fish barbless; I practise catch-and-release, and I teach my family to do the same.
However, I understand that if an introduced fish species destroys indigenous fish populations, they get taken out. I understand that sometimes a rogue lion that is killing livestock needs to be destroyed. I understand that when a crocodile frequently attacks children playing next to a river, it needs to be moved or culled.
But when some moron looking for nothing more than a trophy bragging rights kills an endangered leopard, I get both angry and sad.

Spot the irony:-

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All leopard subspecies are either endangered or threatened. The U.S. Endangered Species Act and the Commission on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES) help protect leopards..

[thirdworld19 0]

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animals are being bred to be killed, and are livestock, not wild creatures.

How far can you take this argument? Could we breed humans to hunt specifically, if they never lived in the wild? Just a hypothetical question of course.

This is why it is nice to be at the top of the food chain.

[Skyrad 0]

Firstly thanks you for posting this. I wanted to watch the program and forgot and didn't think to look at iplayer. I have now watched the program.
I think this was the most honest Louis Theroux program I've seen. It was I felt balanced and well presented.
I don't have problem with game farms for the reasons of conservation that were clearly highlighted in the program.
I'm a carnivore and have killed animals in the past to eat and to feed others with.
I do not see this canned 'hunting' as hunting at all and have no idea why anyone would want to fly to the other side of the world to kill a bush pig from 5 metres away from a blind with a crossbow on a tripod.
Why would anyone want to shoot a animal for the fun of it? That I don't get, not when you are in a blind and don't have to do anything but point and shoot. Or sitting dressed up like GI Joe in the back of a bukkie while a driver drives you to within a few feet of a animal that couldn't care less if you are there or not.
Its sad that the only way that African animals are allowed to live is if they are bred to indulge Hemingway wanabes.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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If I had the money to travel and hunt so called trophy game I would, but there are animals I do not want to hunt.

I'm curious, what animals would you not want to hunt and why? What is your criteria for deciding if a animal is game or not?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[warpedskydiver 0]

Elephant, Rhino, Leopard, Giraffe, Cheetah, Hippo.

Maybe a couple of others.

Why? I think they are either of no interest to me as a game animal, endangered, or better off left alive to view in the wild.

I would not hunt animals I would not eat, or at the very least, I would hunt vermin that endanger all other species.

Coyote is one of the species in North America that needs severe culling.

[rehmwa 2]

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Coyote is one of the species in North America that needs severe culling.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[normiss 624]

Wholeheartedly agreed!
We should never waste an animal simply for pleasure of "game". Worthless waste of the most cherished of things on this planet is just plain wrong.