Fuck you American healthcare system

[kallend 1,635]

Funny how one's ideas change when it is one's own ox that is being gored.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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Funny how one's ideas change when it is one's own ox that is being gored.

Like someone that advocates more government spending going off about GA user fees?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 1,635]

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Funny how one's ideas change when it is one's own ox that is being gored.

Like someone that advocates more government spending going off about GA user fees?

Whose ox would that be? Certainly not mine since

1. I do not advocate more government spending. For starters I think defense spending should be cut drastically.

2. I pay more in gas taxes now than I'd incur in user fees if they were imposed because I hardly ever use ATC services, and non-corporate users are exempt anyway under the Bush proposal.

(At least I'd benefit in the short term, until the GA system is reduced to the pitiful state it is in Europe where they've had user fees for a while and the majority of smaller airports have been forced out of business).

"User fees" are actually a code-phrase for the airlines to shift their costs to corporate aviation (including dropzones).

It was a nice try, except it was based on ignorance of the facts.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Thanatos340 1]

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Funny how one's ideas change when it is one's own ox that is being gored.

Agreed. It takes perspective. Those that have Insurance have no idea what Drug companies are actually charging for Perscriptions. They just pay thier Co-Pay and go on thier merry way. (Guilty here)

Like I said, I beleive in paying my own way and try to play by the rules but learning what drug companies are REALLY charging for basic common perscritions was an eye opener.

[Andy9o8 0]

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That seems like a clear cut case of negligence...which in theory should have nothing to do with actual tort reform.

You're half-way to the truth.

[jcd11235 0]

I can't believe I read this whole thread (in a single sitting). There have been some good points made, and some not so good points made.

I don't recall if it was Lindsay or KBordson who offered the anecdotal example of the lady who opted for the government paid $600 pregnancy test over the $15 pregnancy test available at the drug store across the street.

Realistically, I can't fault the lady for the choice she made. From her perspective, she was looking at free versus $15. It would have been not only irrational for her to choose the higher priced option, but also less than intelligent. However, I do find fault with the policy makers who made the $600 pregnancy test available under her benefits, but not the $15 test.

It is equally illogical to (intentionally or by default) make ER care available to the poor, but not preventative, or even non-emergency care available. The cost of the ER care that ends up being far more expensive than many impoverished patients can pay is either paid for by government reimbursement or price increases at the hospital, or some combination. Either way, the burden of providing the care is shifted from those who can't/don't pay to those who can/do.

It's as though our policy makers have elected to spend an extra $40 per beneficiary in order to make sure that beneficiaries can't freeload $1 worth of services. I suspect that this is the result of some surreal compromise between politicians that want to provide gov't subsidized healthcare to the less advantaged and politicians that believe everyone should pay for their own healthcare out of their own pockets.

US healthcare ranks at or very near the top in terms of price paid by consumers. Unfortunately, US healthcare does not rank nearly as high in terms of quality of services provided. (Last I heard the numbers were 1st and 37th, respectively, but those numbers are 2-3 years old.) We are long past the point where we can deny that there is a problem that badly needs to be addressed, even if we can't agree on a particular solution.

Some have expressed reservations about universal healthcare, claiming that they don't want bureaucrats making health decisions for them. However, we already see this happening with private HMOs.

Some worry that the government cannot operate as efficiently as private industry. I have a hard time believing this, considering it takes much more time for me to wade through the bureaucracy of paying my rent each month (which one would think would be a routine procedure) to the private company that manages the apartment complex I live in than it does to renew my vehicle tags with the DMV. Efficiency of operation has more to do with management than ownership. Neither private industry nor government has the market cornered on efficient operation. Both excel in some areas and come up short in others.

Right now, while I am in university, I have access to pseudo-socialist healthcare. I pay a $100 fee each semester (covered by PELL grant), which gives me access to university doctors for only a $25-$35 co-pay, which is often waived by the docs. I also have access to prescription drugs at prices far below normal retail. However, I do not have access to major coverage, so if I screw up a landing and break several bones, I'm SOL in terms of coverage. (One of the reasons I'm not currently an active jumper) This system seems to work better than the completely socialized care I had access to while I was serving in the military.

My parents' insurance rates have skyrocketed over the past few years, even on a group policy. The expense is very close to their monthly mortgage expense, if it isn't already a little bit higher. Unfortunately, if they go to another company, assuming they could find a less expensive option, they permanently lose the option of coverage under their current group policy. This essentially removes any power that they, as consumers, should inherently have in a free market.

* * *

Someone stated that welfare makes up the largest portion of federal spending. Others have argued that military spending is the biggest budget expense. The fact is, it depends on what is considered military spending, and what is considered welfare. If we don't count interest on national debt taken on for purposes of deficit military spending as a military expenditure, and also consider veterans benefits such as GI Bill funding as welfare, then welfare spending does exceed military spending. Of course, if we look at it that way, then it would be disingenuous to not refer to GI Bill and other veteran benefits as social welfare handouts.

If we don't want to consider our veteran heroes as welfare recipients as they use their hard earned benefits to go to school, then we also have to acknowledge that military spending exceeds social welfare spending.

It doesn't really matter how we classify veteran benefits, as the tax revenue is being spent regardless. We should, however, be sure to keep our rhetoric consistent.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[maadmax 0]

-- Came out of the Have no fear. Tort Reform ® will prevent his family from filing a frivolous lawsuit.

[Lindsey 0]

Agreed. It takes perspective. Those that have Insurance have no idea what Drug companies are actually charging for Perscriptions. They just pay thier Co-Pay and go on thier merry way

I have a REAL good idea. My insurance won't pay for my OrthoVisc injections. I'm in the middle of the second series of 3 injections. Each round of 3 injections has cost me, out of my pocket, $650. I can decide whether it's worth it. It is, so I pay. Would be nice if insurance would cover it, but people have abused the system so badly that this is where we are. I'm okay paying for little things our of my pocket, because my healthcare is more important to me than my hair, or my fingernails, or my stylish jeans (all things that people who bitch about paying for healthcare readily pay for without complaint). People need to feel a little responsibility for their health too.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Muenkel 0]

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Agreed. It takes perspective. Those that have Insurance have no idea what Drug companies are actually charging for Perscriptions. They just pay thier Co-Pay and go on thier merry way.

Not necessarily true. My pharmacy, which is a very large chain, lists the retail price, amount paid by insurance and my co-pay right on the receipt.

As for the extremely high prices of meds, I'm sure there is price gouging on the part of the pharmaceutical; but I don't know enough of their business to know how much that really is. I know R & D on their part is extremely expensive and has to be paid somehow.

_________________________________________
Chris

[Andy9o8 0]

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parasitical service providers

Ohh, dat hoits.
Go ahead, Max, bash away. It's an American tradition, like Mom and apple pie.

[misaltas 0]

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Just like education. Want to argue against providing a basic education to all Americans? Did YOU attend a public school or college?

I'll be happy to answer those questions, like I did all your others.

But first... couldn't help but notice you keep avoiding questions of mine you seem to not have answers for.

I'll save you scroll time:

>...why is it that healthcare is too expensive when it's coming out of their own pocket, but not too expensive when it's coming out of everyone else's (taxpayer's) pocket?

>...why stop at healthcare? Why shouldn't gov't then provide all of us with food, clothing, and other things we all need and use?

Ohne Liebe sind wir nichts

[billvon 2,410]

>why stop at healthcare? Why shouldn't gov't then provide all of us with
>food, clothing, and other things we all need and use?

Not a bad idea! If mailing people $1200 checks is good for the economy and all, imagine how much stimulus you'd see if those were checks for $12,000, and were earmarked for food, clothing etc.

[rhys 0]

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This was my comment to you in Jan 2007 on this topic


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This is a big topic debate over here.

Personal autonomy and responsibility vs. government control.

You argue the small picture ("when I got hurt" or "when my friends got hurt" especially in high risk hobby situations, not activities required for daily life.... and I'm not calling you a liar, but I do find it HIGHLY unlikely that they would be turned away from an ER due to lack of ability to pay. That would have been an EMTALA violation and those hospitals would risk serious repercussions)

I wonder if you can see forest for the trees here. Or if you're so used to the government just providing that you can't visualize the self responsibility

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This was your reply


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it is the greedy fucked up attitude such as yours where you are not willing to share a very small portion of your income for the wellbeing of yourself and all, that is destroying our planet just now.

you are now the first person to be blocked by me,

take your fucked, selfish seppo attitude somwhere else please.

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I don't think you want to discuss or debate the issues. "I'm right" is your cry and anyone that doesn't side with you is selfish. There is no looking at how to resolve this. I have admitted that this system is broken and I've been saying it for more than a year. . . but I actually do something to help. (ie my clinic full of medicaid and writing off bills instead of sending it to collections, but I can only do that so much because my nurse likes eating, the receptionist has a family, there's supplies, insurance, overhead.... if I give too much, my clinic folds and then what help am I)

When I read this I wondered if I had been insane, I knew I had written these words, but couldn't imagine myself using those particular words in reply to what you had posted.

Looking back through my messages I learned that you had been debating your points with me through private messages.

After the 7th message arguing your point including statements such as

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"bums and panhandlers aren't always who you think they are...

“I decided I had had enough, I was actually researching the 911 'attacks' at the time and was furious with the US system for being so corrupt. This fueled my response with anger.

The post I am replying to here was a blatant and intentional attempt of 'Defamation of character' You Lie, my comment was not the response to the comment you posted at all. It was the response to these comments from you.

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So... go live on the Island and let the government run your life. Me... I'll take personal responsibility and personal choice over government control and entitlement.

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And who says the wealth needs to be shared.... if I work hard, why should I give it all to someone wanting to be lazy and not have a job?!

Your opinion and mine are different.

Please keep debate to the forums and personal messages out of the forums. Play fair.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[kbordson 8]

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Your opinion and mine are different.

Please keep debate to the forums and personal messages out of the forums. Play fair.

The reason it was in the pm's was because I didn't want to hijack the thread that you had commented in. So I started with trying to help you understand. It was not in pm for any other reason besides that. Your comments did most of the escalation - and whether you would have made those comments had it been open forum or not is kind of irrelevent. There were several personally attacking comments that you directed at me. Mine were more directed toward discussion of personal autonomy and responsibility.

Additionally those comments that you posted above are out of context and without the links as well....

Panhandler link


So define "fair."
Does it includde name calling and ending a debate that you are loosing by blocking pm's.

edit to add: And

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I don't think you want to discuss or debate the issues. "I'm right" is your cry and anyone that doesn't side with you is selfish.

still stands.

I didn't then nor do I now understand why you're so emotionally charged about health care in another country. IT DOESN'T APPLY TO YOU.

[jcd11235 0]

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why is it that healthcare is too expensive when it's coming out of their own pocket, but not too expensive when it's coming out of everyone else's (taxpayer's) pocket?

Insurance policy sales commissions
Insurance company admin costs
Insurance company profit margins
Healthcare price inflation due to non-payment
Unnecessary admin fees due to so many different rules/policy coverages
Pharmaceutical marketing fees


There's a few reasons why our current privatized system costs Americans more than necessary.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[maadmax 0]

Quote

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why is it that healthcare is too expensive when it's coming out of their own pocket, but not too expensive when it's coming out of everyone else's (taxpayer's) pocket?

Insurance policy sales commissions
Insurance company admin costs
Insurance company profit margins
Healthcare price inflation due to non-payment
Unnecessary admin fees due to so many different rules/policy coverages
Pharmaceutical marketing fees


There's a few reasons why our current privatized system costs Americans more than necessary.

_______________________________________________

Good point, but don't forget:

-$300,000-$500,000/ year in malpractice premiums
-Cost of defensive medicine, so you can stay out
of the court room.
-Time wasted sitting in a court room defending your-
self in front of people who don't have the first clue
what and why something happened.
-Time wasted do to the preparation and stress of
being sued.

...

[kallend 1,635]

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Just like education. Want to argue against providing a basic education to all Americans? Did YOU attend a public school or college?

I'll be happy to answer those questions, like I did all your others.

But first... couldn't help but notice you keep avoiding questions of mine you seem to not have answers for.

I'll save you scroll time:

>...why is it that healthcare is too expensive when it's coming out of their own pocket, but not too expensive when it's coming out of everyone else's (taxpayer's) pocket?

1. Take a walk to your local hospital (good for the heart) and count for yourself the number of "workers" that are extraneous to providing healthcare.

2. Because prevention is cheaper than cure, and our existing system discourages preventative medicine.

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>...why stop at healthcare? Why shouldn't gov't then provide all of us with food, clothing, and other things we all need and use?

Very few people are bankrupted by the cost of food and clothing, and we do provide for the truly needy.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kbordson 8]

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Quote

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why is it that healthcare is too expensive when it's coming out of their own pocket, but not too expensive when it's coming out of everyone else's (taxpayer's) pocket?

Insurance policy sales commissions
Insurance company admin costs
Insurance company profit margins
Healthcare price inflation due to non-payment
Unnecessary admin fees due to so many different rules/policy coverages
Pharmaceutical marketing fees


There's a few reasons why our current privatized system costs Americans more than necessary.

_______________________________________________

Good point, but don't forget:

-$300,000-$500,000/ year in malpractice premiums
-Cost of defensive medicine, so you can stay out
of the court room.
-Time wasted sitting in a court room defending your-
self in front of people who don't have the first clue
what and why something happened.
-Time wasted do to the preparation and stress of
being sued.

...

Oh come on.... the easy answer to that is that Doctors need to be perfect - thus avoid the malpractice issue. AND work without pay - thus fix the whole financial aspect of patients.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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perhaps shave your elitist salary. Great to have docs care so much for humanity

Dude... you have no idea what my salary is. Your self-rightous assumptions are getting old

And WTH about the comment on my caring for humanity. You have no clue.

for Lucky, even if there were wealth redistribution as he sees fit, he still would be unable to purchase a clue.

[ExAFO 0]

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perhaps shave your elitist salary. Great to have docs care so much for humanity

Dude... you have no idea what my salary is. Your self-rightous assumptions are getting old

And WTH about the comment on my caring for humanity. You have no clue.

Well, Doctors in North Korea theoretically make as much as a factory automaton, so he'd probably love the system and standard of care there...

I'd consider paying 10% of the cost of a one-way ticket to Pyongyang for him and any other rabid socialist who wants to accompany him.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[billvon 2,410]

Your one warning.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Yes, but you must admit, a clue cannot be purchased.

Well, unless it is some type of board game.

[rhys 0]

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I didn't then nor do I now understand why you're so emotionally charged about health care in another country. IT DOESN'T APPLY TO YOU.

Actually it does apply to me. I will be in the USA for about 5 weeks later this year training. I will have to purchase much more comprehensive insurance as I have to make sure it covers Skydiving injuries. In New Zealand you don't have to worry about that.

You argue for privatisation because it is good for you (you own a medical clinic or have implied that you do), you say "why should I share 'my' wealth that 'I' have created for myself.

This is what I don't agree with, this argument has nothing to do with healthcare, it is all about attitude.

In your rationale, what responsabilities does the govornment have if healthcare is not one on the list?

Education?, Infrastructure?, dare i say it Defence/ War. Space travel.

Would you rather pay No Tax and have anarchy?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[MikeForsythe 0]

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Actually it does apply to me. I will be in the USA for about 5 weeks later this year training. I will have to purchase much more comprehensive insurance as I have to make sure it covers Skydiving injuries. In New Zealand you don't have to worry about that.

It applies to you by choice. You don't have to come. In fact if NZ is so great why are you coming here? It may not be perfect but it has it advantages, one of them being it is much more advanced in terms of available care.

If you want to look at infrastructure you might look at your own highway system.

Education? My kids went to a four year major university and it cost me nothing. The state paid for it.

So since I have great health insurance (provided by the government), good highway, education and defense infrastructure and I am happy my question is who has the attitude since it is not me?

Oh, by the way, if your health care system is so good, explain THIS

Also, according to The New Zealand Ministry of Health, healthcare for non-residents IS NOT FREE.

Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!

[mnealtx 0]

From the Winnipeg Free Press:

See the website for the full story.

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WHEN Sue MacKinnon heard a doctor at a St. James clinic was accepting new patients, she jumped at the chance to find a physician close to home.

MacKinnon went to the clinic and filled out a form detailing her medical history, including her Type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, cholesterol and chronic sleep disorder.

Weeks later, MacKinnon found out she didn't make the cut -- the physician rejected her as a patient because of her health troubles.

"I got a letter saying that I had too many medical problems," said MacKinnon, 51.

"I was too complicated to take."

According to Manitoba Health, 29 doctors were accepting new patients in Winnipeg as of last Wednesday -- 10 of whom have certain restrictions on who they will accept as patients.

Guess Canada's out, eh Lucky? Those filthy Nazis, discriminating against patients...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706