Tom Cruise is completely insane/ retarded

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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Tempering my criticism of organized religions is the role they have played in moving civilization forward.

Are you referring to the evangelical protestant movement's attacks on teaching science in the classroom or the Church of Rome imprisoning Galileo for his "Devil Glass?" Perhaps you are referring to the 'progress' made during the inquisition or during the witch hunts or the English civil war.
The Christian church has been an anchor to human progress since its inception.

[mnealtx 0]

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Help me understand this.... Is Scientology a religion for everyone, or is it primarily for the economically privileged? That was my first impression, and for the most part I've never seen any traces of it here in middle-class Kansas.

Well Dang! If there are no traces of it in as religiously diverse a group as middle class Kansas then it must truly be out there.

Because, of course, those people out in 'flyover land' don't count anyway, right?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Well I don't know about your particular corner, but this here part of flyover country counts. Not because of it's diversity or openness to foreign ideas so much; just the oil.

[mnealtx 0]

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he doesn't hesitate to put HIS ethics on someone else because he ruthlessly puts them upon HIMSELF

Sounds like a total fanatic from ANY religion.

Or anti-religion, to be honest

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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What irks me is that psychiatry has helped millions (myself included), and their actions could disrupt/kill people by inhibiting their free access to needed care.

Kind of like how Christians work to restrict access to family planning services and stem cell research for people who need them.

Restrict access to stem cell research? Hadn't heard about that one.

Or would that be the whole "government isn't going to fund the research but private organizations can" thing?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[pirana 0]

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Tempering my criticism of organized religions is the role they have played in moving civilization forward.

Are you referring to the evangelical protestant movement's attacks on teaching science in the classroom or the Church of Rome imprisoning Galileo for his "Devil Glass?" Perhaps you are referring to the 'progress' made during the inquisition or during the witch hunts or the English civil war.
The Christian church has been an anchor to human progress since its inception.

No, I'm talking a longer view. Much longer. Sure they've had some nasty moments. What group of humans hasn't? But in spite of the fact that they have at times been an obstacle to enlightenment, they have also been at times the only cement holding Western civilization together. Why do you think it is so hard to let go of. Humanity leaned heavily on religious organizations to get thru some dark times, then later says "We are now enlightened, you can go away." Not that easy, not that fast.

Over long tracts of time religious beliefs will continue to change, and faith-based thinking will eventually shrink back to the strictly spiritual realm; but if you think just because humans figured out the atom and the solar system that we would overnight throw off over 6000 years of a faith-based and spiritually-centered view of the world, well . . . . obviously it's not happening.

You can cherry pick at the nasty things organized religion has done, and because they have been around a good bit, will come up with a bushel of bad behavior. But that is what it is, cherry picking. If you know of enough of those things, then you must have read enough history to know there is much more to the story. Unless you are reading thru some big-time filters.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Andrewwhyte 1]

The church 'held' western civilization together in the same way the DHS is holding American society together today; by creating dragons for them to slay. While the church was 'holding' our society together the muslims were pushing the boundaries of math and science. Their failure to continue forward was an accident of geography as much as anything (closer to Ghengis Kahn than us).
No, I do not believe that holding our society static for one thousand years served any purpose whatsoever.

[SpeedRacer 1]

Then you don't understand much about history.

The fact is that it was the church that preserved much of Western Civilization's knowledge during the Dark Ages when much of the rest of Europe was mired in feudalism and illiteracy.

Pirana is correct: you are cherry-picking.

Check out this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Irish-Saved-Civilization-Hinges-History/dp/0385418493

Also, have you read any books from the Renaissance/ Middle Ages? Most of the intellectuals & writers of those times were taught from manuscripts preserved by the Church.

During the 1100s there was a sort of minor renaissance in which churches provided free public education.

The idea that Christianity was holding people back is extremely one-sided.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[shropshire 0]

If people belive stuff and keep it to them selves, then fair dos... but when they spout crap in public they court and receive any amount of shite.... pretty much like us on here

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[pirana 0]

Not to mention that our concept of laws, as well as a good deal of specific laws (including the whole idea of property rights) has it's founding in early religious thought.

They were for a long time THE place to go for education of any kind, including the ability to read and write.

And as I mentioned, their civilizing effect. Religion was almost always the first step in getting a barbaric horde to settle down and assimilate, instead of just massacreing everybody and stealing all their goodies. The Bible is quite an impressive book when it comes to convincing stories of how to lead a civilized life amongst fellow men (as long as you do not take it too literally - remember it was written back when the manner of making a point and teaching lessons was just slightly different than it is today).

So you've got the schools, the preservation of knowledge, legal code, their being a storehouse of art and literature, teaching lessons for life, their civilizing effect on the barbaric hordes, . . .

. . . but WHAT ELSE have the Christians done for us?

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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While the church was 'holding' our society together the muslims were pushing the boundaries of math and science. Their failure to continue forward was an accident of geography as much as anything (closer to Ghengis Kahn than us).
No, I do not believe that holding our society static for one thousand years served any purpose whatsoever.

Their failure to continue at the same pace was falling into the dogma of organized religion, which they are still mired in.

The Dark Ages were not the result of, nor were they prolonged by any church. If the clergy had not stepped in to fill the vacumn created by the collapse of The Roman Empire, the descent most likely would have been deeper and lasted longer. The Church, from the time the Empire collapsed, began immediately sowing the seeds of organization that led directly to the formation of modern Europe. It just took a long time to come to maturity, not because of the church, but because of the narrow, short, and disorganized vision of most of the leaders of the day. They had to spend a few hundred years playing a financially destructive game of King of the Hill. Generation after generation spent all the resources of their fiefdom conquering the land over the next hill. The Dark Ages were dark mostly as a matter of economic and organizational meltdown and not something spiritual or something the church did. Quite the reverse, as Europe was entering the Dark Ages, the church had already sown the seeds for future organization and growth.

You could say they had already become a political entity and were only acting in their own interest. I would agree. Doesn't change the fact that they got the ball rolling. Their enduring grip on our culture is testament to that.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[jakee 1,265]

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Not to mention that our concept of laws, as well as a good deal of specific laws (including the whole idea of property rights) has it's founding in early religious thought.

Show me.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[ExAFO 0]

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Not to mention that our concept of laws, as well as a good deal of specific laws (including the whole idea of property rights) has it's founding in early religious thought.

Show me.

Who farted?

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[Muenkel 0]

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. . . but WHAT ELSE have the Christians done for us?

Prayed.

_________________________________________
Chris

[juanesky 0]

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Although he's taking it pretty far, I have to admit that some followers of more "conventional" religions (Christians, Muslims, etc...) can sometimes make as much sense as he does. At least to me.

That's what I was thinking while reading this thread. It's odd to me that Scientology is considered insane by the mainstream in the U.S., while Christianity is considered to be normal.

(Well, I guess from a historical point of view, I understand it. But from a logical point of view, I don't.)

Christianity is believe in Christ, Jesus, at least his existence is well documented in the bible, the Torah, and the Quran, mohamed's existance is also documented, in most diferent religious text

Where are the facts of existence of Xenu? Oh, wait, that's right L Ron Hubbard, indicted fugitive, sci-fi writer, came up with this idea. It must be true.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[juanesky 0]

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The video was taken down before I could see it, so I'll refrain from giving an opinion.

I'm not about to blast Scientology as I am too busy defending my religious beliefs here.

Many of you claim Scientology or Christianity are intolerant. News flash: Many of you should read your own words right here in SC. You may learn who truly are the intolerant ones.

Hey Bud, here is a copy

The so called "church for the freedom of religion" is working very hard to suppress the story.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[juanesky 0]

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The video is a bunch of short clips with no real context, so tough to tell anything from it, but if you replaced the world "Scientologist" with "Christian" he would sound no different than any Christian Evangelical.

I don't know anything about Scientology or how nuts or not nuts it might be, but I didn't see anything damning in that video.

It was actually created in its entirety bu the CoS.

I assume that when you here is tidbit of : "being a scientologist, when you drive pass by an accident, it's not like anyone else, if you drive past, you know you have to do something about it, because you know you are THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN HELP". Hmm, I assume becoming a medical Doctor, nurse, EMT, etc, is just a waste of time for scientologysts...

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[juanesky 0]

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Not to mention that our concept of laws, as well as a good deal of specific laws (including the whole idea of property rights) has it's founding in early religious thought.

Show me.

"IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, ........"

Here is another

The Constitution of the United States of America

Preamble
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Skyrad 0]

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he doesn't hesitate to put HIS ethics on someone else because he ruthlessly puts them upon HIMSELF

Sounds like a total fanatic from ANY religion.

Or anti-religion, to be honest

VERY true.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Butters 0]

He states that the world has multiple problems. Ok. Then he states that we must do something to solve those problems. Ok. Then he states that he knows what we must do to solve those problems. Ok. ... Does he state what we must do? No.

PS: Reminds me of some of the posters in Speakers Corner.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[jakee 1,265]

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Not to mention that our concept of laws, as well as a good deal of specific laws (including the whole idea of property rights) has it's founding in early religious thought.

Show me.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

The Constitution of the United States of America.

Lovely documents to be sure, but maybe a tiny bit totally irrelevant when talking about early religious thought

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[juanesky 0]

Well, lives in Winsconsin, and bound by those rules, as well as myself, maybe its a lot different in NZ, but who knows, I don't.

And you are not only talking about early religious thought, you are talking about a combination of specific laws, that have founding in religious thought.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[jakee 1,265]

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And you are not only talking about early religious thought, you are talking about a combination of specific laws, that have founding in religious thought.

I'm wanting someone to show me that our concept of law has its founding in early religious thought. The Declaration and the Constitution miss out on that period by more than a couple of thousand years. They're also completely irrelevant in showing me that specific laws came from early religious thought as well. It's a non-answer to my question.

And I'm not from NZ.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[pirana 0]

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Not to mention that our concept of laws, as well as a good deal of specific laws (including the whole idea of property rights) has it's founding in early religious thought.

Show me.

Well, I do not possess the original documents(), but am just going from readings. As the earliest civilizations started bumping up against each other in densities that created conflicts bigger than just localized harassment, there came the need for rules about what belonged to who. Not just a goat or knife or clothes or other obviously personal stuff; but things like the rights to land and resources and the like.

The first people to address this formally were the the Jews, or maybe ancestors of the Jews, I can't remember the exact timeframe. Anyway, Semitic Arabs that had wandered into the Levant. They began codifying the rules of their culture and included stuff about what could be owned. It can be traced ideologically and archeologically right thru to modern times.

I remember reading some about it not all that long ago. I'll dig a bit and see if I can give more details. Or you could search on your own. Google "history" and narrow it down from there.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[jakee 1,265]

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Well, I do not possess the original documents(), but am just going from readings. As the earliest civilizations started bumping up against each other in densities that created conflicts bigger than just localized harassment, there came the need for rules about what belonged to who. Not just a goat or knife or clothes or other obviously personal stuff; but things like the rights to land and resources and the like.

The first people to address this formally were the the Jews, or maybe ancestors of the Jews, I can't remember the exact timeframe. Anyway, Semitic Arabs that had wandered into the Levant. They began codifying the rules of their culture and included stuff about what could be owned. It can be traced ideologically and archeologically right thru to modern times.

I would be amazed if that were the case. Real civilisations were flourishing on the earth when the Jews were still a tiny, insignificant group of nomadic tribesmen.


(It also doesn't immediately follow that just because the Jews wrote it, it was religious in nature. Jewish doesn't automatically equal Judaic.)

Do you want to have an ideagasm?