A Study in Fascism: Venezuela

[Trent 0]

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Same ol' same ol'. That windbag has been blustering for years. I liked his statement on how he's "going to give another knockout to Bush." Right - we can all recall the last time he did _that._

Sure, he's full of shit now... but he's grabbing more and more power... slowly and surely. It still makes it bad for people I know there and here. It's still terrible to see what was and could be a really great country turn into what it is. Situations like this are bad anywhere... this one is just a little closer to home for me and my friends.

Oh, hello again!

[Amazon 7]

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Where did I say that we should just kill all the Chavistas? Is complete ignorance really your debate tactic? Sad.

Sorry if I thought all this rabble rousing was not just another right wing excuse for another war.... I guess not since so many right wingers talk a good game.. but cant walk the walk

[billvon 2,435]

>Sure, he's full of shit now... but he's grabbing more and more power...
>slowly and surely. It still makes it bad for people I know there and here.

Agreed there. I see him like Castro - someone who we'd be better off without, but in the long run it's probably better to just wait for him to die (or for the people of his country to overthrow him, whichever comes first.)

[Amazon 7]

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but in the long run it's probably better to just wait for him to die (or for the people of his country to overthrow him, whichever comes first.)

why ...why....why... thats just un-american.....where is all that liberal hand wringing about the plight of the people there... that has always been such a great excuse for another war

[nerdgirl 0]

Is Chavez a 21st Century (neo)-fascist? Probably.

Did he start out that way? Not really. He was originally elected democratically in a popular backlash against the widespread corruption of the previous regime.

Has Chavez executed a few well-placed and widely publicized domestic programs, which he repeatedly references but that are not indicative of the whole of his policies? Yes.

Is Chavez taking credit for (really pretty small) decreases in poverty rate in Venezuela that probably have less to do with him and his policies than the global price of oil? Yes

Is he the first politician to over-emphasize successful programs and selectively ignore those that don’t work? Of course not!
Is he the first politician to take ‘credit’ for things that occur under his administration regardless of his direct involvement/impact/influence? Of course not!

Pretty good analysis (im-ever-ho) from Foreign Policy magazine “Why Chavez Wins: “Anti-American autocrat Hugo Chávez was sworn in for a third term as Venezuelan president after promising to nationalize ‘strategic’ sectors of the economy and bring ‘21st Century Socialism’ to the masses. But his appeal among Venezuela’s poor is based on a lie. A new analysis of his government’s own statistics finds that his policies don’t actually help them.” Btw, FP is generally considered a middle to liberal magazine.

Is Chavez anti-American? Yes.
Did Chavez *invent* anti-Americanism in late 20th Century/early 21st Century South America? No … altho’ he is taking is taking it to a new level of what some might call absurdity. Witness: his outbursts at the UN Security Council meeting.

If he was quietly going along with his neo-fascism without the vitriolic anti-American rhetoric would you care?

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He's not as close (to Putin), but we've had to deal with that nonsense from Russia before.

Would you expand a little on what you base this assertion?

How about comparison with the House of Saud? And specifically Prince Nayef bin Abdul-Aziz, who is aligned with the anti-American Wahhabis [that have much in common with al Qa’eda], and who is counter to King Abdullah’s public face. Analysis from the journal Foreign Affairs on The Saudi Paradox. Is a quiet (neo-)fascist better than a loud one?

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The invocation/connection that somehow Chavez’s neo-fascism legitimizes erosion of US civil liberties makes no sense to me.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[masterblaster72 0]

Thanks for answering my questions.

But I think we have differing ideas of 'common sense.'

Common sense tells me that we can't go meddling in the affairs of every part of the world when we're already running ourselves into a massive debt that's going to take generations to pay off. Meddling in affairs elsewhere may result in military action, and more debt. I don't want more war. And I don't think we need to lose any more friends than we've already lost.

In that sense, I am a bit of an "isolationist."

Further to that, I don't think that we'll gain any support in South America by trying to convince other governments there that Mr. Chavez is the bad guy, when the pendulum is already swinging left in that part of the world (Morales in Bolivia, Correa in Ecuador, and I think Brazil has a leader that leans left as well). If you blame those countries' election results on Chavez's hot air and bluster, I think you're giving the man too much credit.

Common sense tells me that we should ignore his talk and maybe address his actions. What he's doing in his own country is their business; the Venezuelan people need to fix it, even if it means some of them dying. If he's seeking nukes or trying to invade other countries, then maybe we should address the situation. If he's eroding democracy in his own country, then that's their problem, not ours.

We should be busy questioning our own government rather than questioning others.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[Trent 0]

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If he was quietly going along with his neo-fascism without the vitriolic anti-American rhetoric would you care?

Nice post, btw.

Yes, because I think that people losing their lives, property, and freedoms to give power to a lunatic is bad... wherever it is. (Here comes the ridiculous comparisons... wait for it... wait for it...) I also care because I have friends there and friends who are from there. I also care because it's CLOSE to us and he's trying to spread his tripe even closer. The bottom line is that he IS anti-American and does threaten... what may be empty rhetoric today, really does have potential to become a serious problem.

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Would you expand a little on what you base this assertion?

Chavez is physically closer to us than Putin is. And we have had to deal with a repressive anti-American government in Russia before... cold war. We didn't fight them in the end. We don't have to do it here necessarily.

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Is a quiet (neo-)fascist better than a loud one?

Again, no. But I don't have a list of approved global concerns (in order of importance) in front of me. I chose to talk about Venezuela here because it's closer to me personally and IMO has the potential to get really bad. Some disagree, like BillVon, that's fine. I'd rather think about it now and have it not happen than be surprised by it if it does.

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The invocation/connection that somehow Chavez’s neo-fascism legitimizes erosion of US civil liberties makes no sense to me.

That was just to illustrate the absurdity of people calling our government "fascist". Here we have a shining example in Venezuela (and governments past) that are millions of miles away from where we are politically and yet we have people still trying to push the "US Government is (about to become) fascist" button. We're not even close. Just trying to point out how people just don't really have reality in their arguments sometimes.

Oh, hello again!

[Amazon 7]

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I also care because it's CLOSE to us and he's trying to spread his tripe even closer. The bottom line is that he IS anti-American and does threaten... what may be empty rhetoric today, really does have potential to become a serious problem.

Were any of those foreign troops in RED DAWN from Venezuela???

[Trent 0]

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Were any of those foreign troops in RED DAWN from Venezuela???

Seriously. What is wrong with you?

You may have some good arguments or ideas, but a lot of people will never pay attention to them because of your ridiculous debating tactics. I'm sorry you can't contribute. Really.

Oh, hello again!

[masterblaster72 0]

By the way,

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For starters, we call his bluff.

We agree there. We call his bluff and don't give him so much significance by ignoring his rhetoric.

and

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Chavez is physically closer to us than Putin is.

No, he isn't. Ever hear of the Bering Strait?

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[Amazon 7]

Well with all this rabble rousing and his spreading the South American Axis of Evil.... I just figured you were AFRAID that they will invade... the US.... and then you can be a freedon fighter.....just like RED DAWN



WOLVERINES.!!!!!!!

[tkhayes 140]

I am not 'quick' to point out anything. And I resent being told I am ignorant.

Your original story was from CNN. How accurate is that? fact is, neither me nor you know what is happening in Venezuela.

And my point is that it is THEIR business, not ours.

I will die in hell before I trust ANYTHING verbatim what comes out of our government's mouth after the lies and complete shit that got us into Iraq.

Again, it is THEIR business, not ours. We do not NEED Venezuela, nor should we care much about what happens there. It is and has been the asshole of the Caribbean for decades now, long before Chavez got there - and the only reason we are involved at all is not for the dictator, nor the people, democracy, free speech or any of that crap, it is because of oil.

[billvon 2,435]

>Yes, because I think that people losing their lives, property, and
>freedoms to give power to a lunatic is bad . . .

Agreed. But the reason the people of Venezuela will lose their freedoms is not Chavez - it is them. The referendum on the constitutional changes will be voted on by the people of Venezuela; they have the right to determine their own form of government. We may not like them doing this, because it gives more power to a corrupt leader. But it is their choice, not ours.

[Zep 0]

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>Yes, because I think that people losing their lives, property, and
>freedoms to give power to a lunatic is bad . . .

Agreed. But the reason the people of Venezuela will lose their freedoms is not Chavez - it is them. The referendum on the constitutional changes will be voted on by the people of Venezuela; they have the right to determine their own form of government. We may not like them doing this, because it gives more power to a corrupt leader. But it is their choice, not ours.

I would imagine that the out come of the vote has been decided before the first paper is put in the ballet box.

The Spanish polls put the vote against Chavez, Today we'll find out.

Gone fishing

[jenfly00 0]

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Do you really know the difference between fascism.....communism......nationalism....or totalitarianism... so many ism's.. so little time...

Do YOU?

fas·cism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ –noun
1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

Now, tell me where that DOES NOT apply to Hugo Chavez and what he is moving towards in Venezuela. Really, read just a little. Then compare to how close we REALLY are here in the US. Seriously, no crazy conspiracy crap. How close are we REALLY?

fascist
noun
1. an adherent of fascism or other right-wing authoritarian views


"A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion." [Robert O. Paxton, "The Anatomy of Fascism," 2004]

Some have moved way down that road. I'm ashamed they call themselves Americans.

-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[VincentVL. 0]

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I also care because it's CLOSE to us and he's trying to spread his tripe even closer. The bottom line is that he IS anti-American and does threaten... what may be empty rhetoric today, really does have potential to become a serious problem.

Damn skippy. You should invade Venezuela. For great justice!

On a serious note: he has all the qualities of a power hungry dictator. He's charming, he has the underdog roll in which exploits the idea of a sword of Damocles (Bush) above the heads of the socialist people of Venezuela, he asks "the people" to change the constitution so he can create a better nation/world etc.

Tactics of which we know they've had serious consequences throughout the 20th and 21st century (see: Germany, Isreal, US, etc.)

[Lucky... 0]

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Do you really know the difference between fascism.....communism......nationalism....or totalitarianism... so many ism's.. so little time....

Uh, no, I don't think he does. Neo-fascism includes large portions of Corporatism, and what he is doing sounds counter to that. OTOH, look in the US for Corporatism.

[Lucky... 0]

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>Yes, because I think that people losing their lives, property, and
>freedoms to give power to a lunatic is bad . . .

Agreed. But the reason the people of Venezuela will lose their freedoms is not Chavez - it is them. The referendum on the constitutional changes will be voted on by the people of Venezuela; they have the right to determine their own form of government. We may not like them doing this, because it gives more power to a corrupt leader. But it is their choice, not ours.

What kind of American are you that doesn't think we should invade every puppet country that won't follow our instructions.... oh yea, small pupput countries; we don't fuck with anything that can sustain a fight.

[Lucky... 0]

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Do you really know the difference between fascism.....communism......nationalism....or totalitarianism... so many ism's.. so little time...

Do YOU?

fas·cism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ –noun
1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

Now, tell me where that DOES NOT apply to Hugo Chavez and what he is moving towards in Venezuela. Really, read just a little. Then compare to how close we REALLY are here in the US. Seriously, no crazy conspiracy crap. How close are we REALLY?

Fascism, Mousolini Fascism is pretty much gone by the way of neo-fascism. Neo-fascism is:

Neo-fascism is a post-World War II ideology that includes significant elements of fascism. The term neo-fascist may apply to groups that express a specific admiration for Benito Mussolini and fascist Italy. Neo-fascism usually includes nationalism, nativism, anti-communism, and opposition to the parliamentary system and liberal democracy. Allegations that a group is neo-fascist may be hotly contested, especially if the term is used as a politic epithet. Some post-World War II regimes have been described as neo-fascist due to their authoritarian nature, and sometimes due to their fascination for fascist ideology and rituals.

Latin America's tradition of populism and authoritarian regimes includes the caudillos of the 19th and early 20th centuries, and the various military juntas that took power during the Cold War. Most of the juntas were traditional military dictatorships, and some of these regimes provided refuge to former Nazis (such as Adolf Eichmann), and supported neo-fascist movements (e.g. the Argentinian Triple A).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-fascism

This is interesting:

In several essays, author David Neiwert has explored the rise of what he calls “pseudo-fascism”. Neiwert concedes that “American democracy has not yet reached the genuine stage of crisis required for full-blown fascism to take root” and thus “the current phenomenon cannot properly be labeled ‘fascism’.” He warns:

But what is so deeply disturbing about the current state of the conservative movement [in the United States] is that it has otherwise plainly adopted not only many of the cosmetic traits of fascism, its larger architecture — derived from its core impulses — now almost exactly replicates that by which fascists came to power in Italy and Germany in the 1920s and '30s.[6]

I can agree with that. Neo-fascism hates organized labor, welfare, etc. I think it's early to say the US is fascist, but the framework is there.

[Lucky... 0]

Here's an interesting site:

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

[shropshire 0]

Haven't people learnt anything over the past 10 or so years? Try getting your own house in order before sticking it where it isn't wanted.... jezze people.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[masterrig 1]

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Haven't people learnt anything over the past 10 or so years? Try getting your own house in order before sticking it where it isn't wanted.... jezze people.

I almost fainted when I read that! I'm afraid, it will only fall on deaf ears.


Chuck

[Trent 0]

This is a good reason why I avoid posting in here as much anymore.

You have people shopping for definitions that suit ANYTHING that will create an argument. Go to Dictionary.com (which pulls from several sources), look up fascism, compare to Chavez. It's the same. But if calling him a neo-corruption-dictator-murderer or something like that makes you feel better... go for it. Your arguments are SO weak that you try to play semantics to make yourself feel smart? Gimme a break.

As for TK and not knowing what is going on over there... That IS ignorance, by definition. If that hurts feelings, then I'm sure someone can go find a definition of ignorance that makes a good argument for you. Why are you discussing it if you know nothing about it and don't care to find out?? Don't assume that other people share in your lack of knowledge or care. DO a little research. RE-READ LouDiamond's post. GO TALK to Venezuelans. SEARCH YouTube. There are ways to find out what is going on over there without having to be a lifetime resident of Venezuela or currently in the streets there. In fact, LouDiamond's post is great firsthand information about the region and many of you CHOOSE to ignore it! My friends and their families (from both sides of the argument) have experiences which they relay to us. Should I discount that too? What the hell do you people trust with your information? You must have really expensive travel bills if everything you talk about comes from your own, on the ground, observations! But if I have to hand-hold you to figure out how to do that, then again... we can't really have this conversation.

As for getting your own house in order... that's a cop out argument. Just because we have problems here means we can't DISCUSS and THINK about what's going on nearby or worldwide? I invite you and those who think like you to avoid ALL but local news then. Does that make sense? And what about when "your neighbor's" house starts messing with how you run yours? Unbelievable.

I don't see anyone here advocating invading Venezuela. Do you? Then drop it. Or not... since your strawmen MIGHT be the only argument you have... well aside from semantics. (What's next? Grammar and spelling?) Venezuela IS and HAS BEEN a valuable trading partner for the US and many countries in the Americas as well. Instability there WILL affect us sooner or later and it affects friends and people I care about NOW. You can feel free to not care about it if you like. You can also go on to think that Chavez is some kind of "people's hero" if you want.

Oh, hello again!

[Lucky... 0]

Fascism has been somewhat of a universal name to call others. I heard former US Rep JD Hayworth use the term, "Islamo-fascists," so it works for all. We do know that fascism denounces democratic ideals and denounces organized labor, things that are present here, or used to be present here in the US.

>>>>>>>>>I don't see anyone here advocating invading Venezuela. Do you?

I kinda go that from your writings, as if that was the next step. We don't own any part of Venezuela, they have no duty to us.

>>>>>>>>>Venezuela IS and HAS BEEN a valuable trading partner for the US and many countries in the Americas as well. Instability there WILL affect us sooner or later and it affects friends and people I care about NOW.

This is where you continue to infer an endorsement of an invasion. OK, so they are trading partners with us and others, ok. So what, tehy can stop if they wish or expand it. A reasonable person would infer from reading your paragraph that the next step is to interfere militarily.

>>>>>>You can feel free to not care about it if you like.

Or I can care and disagree with you. I like Chavez for having the balls to step up to Goliath, not many countries still do that.

>>>>>>>>>>>>You can also go on to think that Chavez is some kind of "people's hero" if you want.

It appears as tho he is, that is the people of Venezuela.
____________________________________________

Remember, as far as oppressive governments go, the US is considered up there. During WWII, there were many disenters of both Japan and Germany, but they had no chance of getting out from under that oppression witin, it took an external force to do so, perhaps another country might free up some of the oppression that we feel, but it won't b Venezuela.

[Trent 0]

Not a wholly unexpected post from what I've read from you before.

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I kinda go that from your writings, as if that was the next step. We don't own any part of Venezuela, they have no duty to us.

You would be WRONG and you would also not have read the entire thread where I SPECIFICALLY say that invasion is NOT what I'm advocating here.

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This is where you continue to infer an endorsement of an invasion. OK, so they are trading partners with us and others, ok. So what, tehy can stop if they wish or expand it. A reasonable person would infer from reading your paragraph that the next step is to interfere militarily.

Hahahaha, I don't even know what to say. It is UNREASONABLE to assume that I have said something I have not. I am not writing with subtext here. If I want to say something, I will. You either have not read what I've written or are purposely ignoring it.

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Or I can care and disagree with you. I like Chavez for having the balls to step up to Goliath, not many countries still do that.

You should really understand who you admire before saying things like that. I have a hard time believing that even the wackos on this board would "like" Chavez, who is in the process of further increasing his power and shutting down democracy. You "like" leaders when they make themselves president for life? You "like" leaders that use violence, intimidation, and dismantles the free press... well, okay then!

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It appears as tho he is, that is the people of Venezuela.

Elections there are HIGHLY suspect, despite what Jimmy C says. He may be to the people that he's buying off or giving handouts or guns to... but not to the millions of people who are losing everything.

Oh, hello again!