I would like to tell you a bit more about God

[jakee 1,260]

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The sarcasm and desperate attempts to ridicule and denigrate those who DO have a belief system isn't what I would call laughable...

Desperate? Not really, it's actually rather easy.

BTW, there's a difference between having a belief system and being deluded to the point that it's incredible they can actually function in society.

You're absolutely right - all those non-functionals like Pope John Paul, Mother Teresa, Jimmy Carter, etc etc etc....

Why does the delusion of having God watching over you have such a protected status in society?

I tell you what, read over the OPs accounts of how God has personally intervened in her life (over and over and over) and substitute the word God for, I don't know, The Magical Elf.

Run it through in your head then tell me, honestly, if you would not think that a person who would write that (an Elf got her into Med school, an Elf Made her crash in front of the buildings, an Elf made a Dr come to the DZ that day etc.) was completely delusional. Yet somehow because her invisible magical friend was called God, it's completely normal.

Explain that to me.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jenfly00 0]

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The sarcasm and desperate attempts to ridicule and denigrate those who DO have a belief system isn't what I would call laughable...

Desperate? Not really, it's actually rather easy.

BTW, there's a difference between having a belief system and being deluded to the point that it's incredible they can actually function in society.

You're absolutely right - all those non-functionals like Pope John Paul, Mother Teresa, Jimmy Carter, etc etc etc....

Actually, it's doubtful Mother Teresa would have functioned well outside of the institutional environment she placed herself in. Other than that, your point is reasonable.

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[mnealtx 0]

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Just because you didnt quote my questions doesnt mean they arent there.

The only post of yours that I didn't include was a flat statement about Muslims being persecuted. So, please - *DO* show where you're asking all these questions instead of ridiculing the OP and others that actually HAVE a belief system.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[funkcanna 0]

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The sarcasm and desperate attempts to ridicule and denigrate those who DO have a belief system isn't what I would call laughable...

Desperate? Not really, it's actually rather easy.

BTW, there's a difference between having a belief system and being deluded to the point that it's incredible they can actually function in society.

You're absolutely right - all those non-functionals like Pope John Paul, Mother Teresa, Jimmy Carter, etc etc etc....

He never said they PHYSICALLY CANT function, he said it was INCREDIBLE they could...

To know requires proof
To believe requires evidence
To have faith requires neither.
If you stick with that, we'll never be confused again

[mnealtx 0]

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Actually, it's doubtful Mother Teresa would have functioned well outside of the institutional environment she placed herself in.

You may have a point, there.

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Other than that, your point is reasonable.

I appreciate the compliment, thank you.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[funkcanna 0]

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Just because you didnt quote my questions doesnt mean they arent there.

The only post of yours that I didn't include was a flat statement about Muslims being persecuted. So, please - *DO* show where you're asking all these questions instead of ridiculing the OP and others that actually HAVE a belief system.

But it IS ridiculous...oh look, I have an extra stick on my Kit Kat - THANK YOU GOD!!

To know requires proof
To believe requires evidence
To have faith requires neither.
If you stick with that, we'll never be confused again

[funkcanna 0]

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It just once again showed me that God looks after his children. He placed me close to help, and he supplied a docter to look after me. What more can a girl ask for

Ok, here is a QUESTION (take heed mnealtx :P )

Do you honestly and genuinely beleive that god (no capital G) orchestrated this guys whole entire life so that he would be at the DZ for you when you hurt yourself?

To know requires proof
To believe requires evidence
To have faith requires neither.
If you stick with that, we'll never be confused again

[JackC 0]

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Why does the delusion of having God watching over you have such a protected status in society?

I tell you what, read over the OPs accounts of how God has personally intervened in her life (over and over and over) and substitute the word God for, I don't know, The Magical Elf.

Run it through in your head then tell me, honestly, if you would not think that a person who would write that (an Elf got her into Med school, an Elf Made her crash in front of the buildings, an Elf made a Dr come to the DZ that day etc.) was completely delusional. Yet somehow because her invisible magical friend was called God, it's completely normal.

Explain that to me.

It's a doozie isn't it.

Someone on this forum, I forget who but I think they had some psychiatric training, said that a person who hears voices (auditory halucinations) would probably be diagnosed as schizophrenic. Unless they were religious, then hearing god would not be considered abnormal.

If you look it up, the American Psychological Association's DSM-IV describes delusional schizophrenia as involving a profound disruption in cognition and emotion, assigning unusual significance or meaning to normal events and holding fixed false personal beliefs.

For the life of me I can't see why religion gets a free pass on this one. If there are any psychiatrists out there that can explain it to me, I'd be grateful. The only thing I can think of is that a diagnosis of schizophrenia could land you in hot water as the patient's religious beliefs are constitutionally protected.

[philh 0]

"As Billvon pointed out in another thread, there is a great difference in the message of the Old Testament vs. the message of the New Testament.

Perhaps YOU may wish to do a bit of further reading... "

Last tiime I looked most bibles came packaged together OT and NT all in one book.
If the OT laws are to be discarded why would jesus say
"“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.”

As to the comparative morality of the two. the Ot punishes the non believer by stoning them to death. For lovely peacful Jesus thats not enough; he wants an ever lasting torture for those that doubt him. Not sure how thats a preferable moral message.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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Why does the delusion of having God watching over you have such a protected status in society?

Because it always has been...And why is it delusion to believe in something. Believing in something is a way of holding ones self accountable in life. For those who believe in God and Heaven, the motivation to live a certain way is much like a child who behaves for fear of punishment from a parent. Thats not to say a person of faith is without screw ups.

I believe the earth is round, yet I have not proven it by seeing for myself.

I personally would not see the OPs testimony as a grand gesture of Gods love and his ability to intervene but thats just me. I also dont feel like she is a good example to spread his word. Someone who disciples should be able to lead those who dont believe on a path to help them decide for themselves. She used a coffee table book to express who her God is. Passed judgement and asked others who didnt like her post to not respond. And she acknowledges that all her friends are Christians. I felt she is intolerable of others beliefs by how she wrote it but that does not mean that shes wrong or misguided.

I dont think that God has as much to do with our daily lives as the op. I also feel that the best way to teach others in a productive manner is to understand both sides, those who believe in a higher power and those who dont. To show an intolerence towards non-Christians or Christians is ignorance. However I think that someone who claims to spred his word is more wrong for thier intolerence because taking on the work of a disciple means confronting that, and breaking through it. A Christians greatest friend is someone who does not believe because they then have the power to walk closer with God by bringing others along.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[philh 0]

"And why is it delusion to believe in something"

It is not a delusion to believe in something. But it is a delusion to have the sort of unshakable belief that many theists have without any shred of evdience whatsoever.

[rehmwa 2]

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And why is it delusion to believe in something.

It's delusion to believe in something not real.
It's faith to believe in something not proveable.

Some consider these to be one and the same. Maybe they are right, it's unproveable, so it's a moot point.

But, delusions are not bad things of themselves. I have a delusion that people are inherently decent. it's not true, individuals may or may not be. But my delusion let's me give the benefit of the doubt to strangers. The result seems positive, so I benefit from the delusion.

For some people, their faith does that. For others, their faith makes them self righteous assholes. I have a feeling that their faith has nothing to do with the fact they are assholes or not. They'd find rationalization to be who they were with or without it.

So I find faith to be rather impotent really - thus a waste of my time. Abuses and good deeds would happen either way.

But some will take it as all or nothing - the faithful only see the good, the anti-faithful only see the bad. Extreme viewpoints are the trademark of the religiously zealous.

Extreme view - bad: A couple take a critically unhealthy baby to term and the child and mother die as a result.

Extreme view - good: Faith helps a man overcome addiction and saves his life, marriage and job.

religion is not defined by only one side or the other, it's both. To only see one side and define it that way is very shortsided and that type of thinking needs to stay in politics where it's expected and despised as normal.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jakee 1,260]

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Because it always has been...And why is it delusion to believe in something?

To believe in something to the extent of thinking that the entire world around her is being organised and manipulated just for her benefit. That goes waaay beyond normal religious belief, and if it was attributed to anything other than god then I am sure that you and many others would be questioning her mental state.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Butters 0]

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I have a feeling that there faith has nothing to do with the fact they are assholes or not.

I agree. However, I have a feeling that there faith can have something to do with how much of an asshole they are or aren't.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[rehmwa 2]

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Because it always has been...And why is it delusion to believe in something?

To believe in something to the extent of thinking that the entire world around her is being organised and manipulated just for her benefit. That goes waaay beyond normal religious belief, and if it was attributed to anything other than god then I am sure that you and many others would be questioning her mental state.

and yet, over half the people from your viewpoint (I don't believe you are one of them) would nod, smile, and cluck like a duck if she replaced the work "God" with "fate" or "karma" - I don't think we've evolved from the need at all for the majority of the world's people.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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I have a feeling that there faith has nothing to do with the fact they are assholes or not.

I agree. However, I have a feeling that there faith can have something to do with how much of an asshole they are or aren't.

I don't, unless you consider that faith might allow more of a mob effect on good or bad works. But even then, people would rally around politics, projects or whatever. So even that is likely not differentiated from other enablers.

I mean, honestly, look at the zealousness of 'normal' atheists (not your anti-religious zealous, just everyday joe - or look at the anti-rels, it's another example) in pursuit of political issues. They found their outlet and are just as extreme in the desire to do good or to do bad. Where is their religion that you claim is pushing further into one extreme or the other?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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But it is a delusion to have the sort of unshakable belief that many theists have without any shred of evdience whatsoever.

First off I would like to point out that people who believe in a God or Gods have at some point had personal doubts. The belief in God is not without work. At least in my opinion. When one stumbles its generally due to the pain and suffering they see around them regardless if it directly or indirectly impacts thier own life. Anyone who at any time has not questioned everything they believe in is either kidding themselves or a robot. Its human nature to fail, as through failure one finds success. I would also go as far as saying that someone who has not questioned thier faith in regards to being a Christian has thier eyes closed tight and are probably further from a relationship with thier God then they express.

As far as evidence of a God or Gods or lack there of, I would like to point out that what one would accept as evidence would not always be enough "evidence" for another.

Without getting into my beliefs on a personal level Ill point out that I have seen pictures that prove the earth is frisbee shaped and flat, and I have seen computer models that show it as round. I have seen more proof that the earth is flat, yet I believe its round.

I understand those who choose to not believe in a higher power, and I understand most who do believe there is one. What I dont understand is how someone can state they are a Christian and then speak as if they are full of intolerence to what they feel is a non-believer when everyone knows that the bible would consider that a downright sin.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[Butters 0]

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I have a feeling that there faith has nothing to do with the fact they are assholes or not.

I agree. However, I have a feeling that there faith can have something to do with how much of an asshole they are or aren't.

I don't, unless you consider that faith might allow more of a mob effect on good or bad works. But even then, people would rally around politics, projects or whatever. So even that is likely not differentiated from other enablers.

Faith (and politics) tends to provide a greater amount of jusitification to many for their thoughts, actions, etc... than other things.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[jakee 1,260]

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and yet, over half the people from your viewpoint (I don't believe you are one of them) would nod, smile, and cluck like a duck if she replaced the work "God" with "fate" or "karma" -

God damn hippies! Good point though, I hadn't thought about those people.

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I don't think we've evolved from the need at all for the majority of the world's people.

I don't think it's a 'need' per se. I don't think I'm particularly special (well actually I do, but we'll put the ego aside for now) or have some extraordinary ability that lets me not need a religious faith to get me through the day.

I think that most people in the world could function perfectly well without that kind of faith, but that having it is easier than not having it, especially when you've been taught it from birth.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[beowulf 1]

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Besides being a Christian, i'm also a rationalist, but there are things in life that you have to accept as they are. Either you believe it or you dont. There's a verse in the Bible where Jesus says that His children knows his voice, and they'll know when He speaks to them. Once the Holy Spirit opens your heart up, you'll know when It's your Father speaking to you.

Well I can't argue with that. I have never heard anything resembling god speaking to me.

From what I have read of your posts you seem very naive. Good luck with your broken leg.

[JackC 0]

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It's delusion to believe in something not real.
It's faith to believe in something not proveable.

Slight problem with that. You can't prove the X doesn't exist anywhere in the universe. It's not provable. Even when X is a gigantic purple teapot orbiting saturn. Is believing in the purple teapot faith or delusion?

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religion is not defined by only one side or the other, it's both. To only see one side and define it that way is very shortsided and that type of thinking needs to stay in politics where it's expected and despised as normal.

I agree. There is a continuum of states between 100% sane and 100% psychotic. Unfounded belief (faith) is not necessarily a problem. I would say that a belief only becomes cognitively unhealthy when the believer's free will and normal critical processes have been damaged by doctrine. It becomes a mental disorder when it causes believers to deny empirical evidence (ie reality) in favour of an irrational unyeilding faith.

[NCclimber 0]

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I think that most people in the world could function perfectly well without that kind of faith, but that having it is easier than not having it, especially when you've been taught it from birth.

From the studies I've seen, religious people (on average) tend to be happier than non-religious people.

Life is more than just functioning well.

[philh 0]

Well Im glad you have doubts I wish more religious people would express them.

"As far as evidence of a God or Gods or lack there of, I would like to point out that what one would accept as evidence would not always be enough "evidence" for another. "

That maybe the case but with god there is no evidence at all.

"I have seen pictures that prove the earth is frisbee shaped and flat, and I have seen computer models that show it as round. I have seen more proof that the earth is flat, yet I believe its round. "

i dont knwo what picutres you have been looking at but the Earth is certainly not a frisbee and its no round, its a spheriod (an oblate one at that). A disc is round and its believed by many that Mespotanian cosmology which the bible was possibly based upon inherited that disc like view. If you have seen more "proof" that the world is flat then you should believe it.

"What I dont understand is how someone can state they are a Christian and then speak as if they are full of intolerence to what they feel is a non-believer when everyone knows that the bible would consider that a downright sin. "

problem is not everyone agrees with your intepretation of the bible. Many people believe it preaches intolerance and there are textual refercnes to back that view up:
the bible commands non belivers to be stoend to death in the Ot and burnt in an eternal fire in the NT. The inotlerance you so despise has its roots (at least partially) in the bible itself.

[rehmwa 2]

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Unfounded belief (faith) is not necessarily a problem. I would say that a belief only becomes cognitively unhealthy when the believer's free will and normal critical processes have been damaged by doctrine. It becomes a mental disorder when it causes believers to deny empirical evidence (ie reality) in favour of an irrational unyeilding faith.

There we go. But acknowledge the flip side. How often on this site do you see the non-believers treating, in a very disrespectful way even the 'reasonable' faithful as the "cognitively unhealthy." That's just as big, if not a bigger, problem. It's absolutely identical to religious zealotry.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NCclimber 0]

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Well Im glad you have doubts I wish more religious people would express them.

I'd guess most religious people are willing to express their doubts, in a non-threatening environment. This forum doesn't qualify.