Study Confirms Gas Companies GOUGING

[Zipp0 1]

I told you so!

http://www.dailyheraldtribune.com/z_gouginggas131.lasso

The demands for action follows an analysis by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives that concludes the industry has artificially inflated prices since the temporary supply shortage stemming from Hurricane Katrina in the fall of 2005 showed consumers were willing to pay much higher prices for gas.

The study says ever since Katrina, Canadians and Americans have been paying much more at the pump than would be justified by the cost of crude oil, production and profit margins industry earned prior to the Louisiana hurricane.

The Study: http://policyalternatives.ca/documents/National_Office_Pubs/2007/Gas_Price_Gouge_2007.pdf

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[kallend 1,623]

Dog bites man!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Zipp0 1]

Are you saying that this is old news? Did you read the study?

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[kallend 1,623]

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Are you saying that this is old news? Did you read the study?

"Man bites dog" - unexpected and newsworthy.
"Dog bites man" - same old same old.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Zipp0 1]

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"Dog bites man" - same old same old.

It may not be unexpected, but that there is a study showing that there is proof of gouging on a monumental scale is certainly newsworthy.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[Amazon 7]

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It may not be unexpected, but that there is a study showing that there is proof of gouging on a monumental scale is certainly newsworthy.

Hmmm and what do you expect from the Administration officials who used to work in the Oil Business and will work there again IF they can be voted out of power in 2008....barring some "WMD" attack. Think of it as retirement security for them all..

[Gawain 0]

Events in Canada do not make it so in the US.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Zipp0 1]

In this case it applies. I want to hear from the 'supply and demand' folks on this - after they read the study.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[lawrocket 3]

Well, it's an "interpretation" of it that there is gouging.

Here's something nice - their breakdown:

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Gasoline price breakdown,

May 2007 Ontario                    Cents/litre

Crude oil costs                     44.6

Refining and marketing              14.0

Federal tax                         10.0

Provincial tax                      14.7

Total before GST                    83.3

GST at 6%                           5.0

TOTAL Normal Price                  88.3

Now, I would suggest looking at factors that go into the gasoline price.

The first is crude oil - yep, according to the study, the price of crude is more than half of what they would expect the price of gasoline. Then you've got refining capacity - in May, 2006, the US was operating at 92 percent of capacity. There ain't much room for dealing with shocks, etc.

In part because of the high demand, they also don't keep much of a reserve. This leads to a higher volatility of gas prices.

And why keep much of a reserve if individual states require different formulations and blends every few months? Part of the reason gas prices are highest in California is the boutique of blends that are ued for different times of the year, as mandated by state law.

Finally, there is less competition. Plenty of mergers occurred in the last 15 years - more than 2,500 since Clinton took office - and 85 percent of those were for the exploration/production segment of the industry. Only 13 percent of the mergers were for the refining and marketing segment of the industry.

So, lots of things go along with this. And, by the way, I see no reason why the companies should not be making profits off of this. I've got an idea - get 20 million people who are pissed off about the status of gas prices, etc. They should be easy to find. Get them all to pony up ten grand. That's 200 billion bucks right there - which is plenty to start your own oil company and do things right.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[popsjumper 2]

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In this case it applies. I want to hear from the 'supply and demand' folks on this - after they read the study.

More sensationalism.
*yawn*

Supply/demand is old hat. Now it's Market Bearing.

Charge what the market will bear...good old capitalism at work. So what's your complaint? You're buying the gas at those prices aren't you? Oil companies are for-profit endeavors, aren't they? WTF?

Tell you what...I'll sell you my coffee cup for $1 million. Pay it and then go home and whine about getting ripped off.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Zipp0 1]

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You're buying the gas at those prices aren't you? Oil companies are for-profit endeavors, aren't they? WTF?
]

I pay, since there is no viable alternative. And yes, oil companies are for profit, but cartels and gouging are both illegal.

A bunch of DZ.commers must have fucking Texaco stock. WTF??

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[kelpdiver 2]

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A bunch of DZ.commers must have fucking Texaco stock. WTF??

It's an interesting blend of free marketism where civil rights need not apply. It's related to the fervent dogma of the liability waiver.

[Zipp0 1]

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It's related to the fervent dogma of the liability waiver.

Never thought about it, but you might just be on to something there.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[billvon 2,400]

Despite all your posts on this topic, I have the feeling you will go on supporting them, and paying whatever they ask. As long as you are willing to do that, they will charge whatever they like.

[lawrocket 3]

Cartels are illegal. Price gouging is not, except for in specific circumstances, like emergencies.

I am personally of the free-market, libertarian leaning. Gas prices are high? Well, that indicates a couple of things:
1) Gasoline is scarce; or
2) There aren't enough people selling it; or
3) Someone thinks he can get that type of money for it.

This provides important feedback to people. It's a pretty awesome way to inform the public about the market conditions. Gasoline is $3.00 a gallon? Well, shit, maybe I shouldn't go muddin' this weekend.

As the society makes its decisions to lessen the consumption, the demand goes down. Then the prices go down. Meanwhile, the companies ride out what they can and position themselves to make money elsewhere.

I personally hope that the gas prices drop on their own. It'll mean people are taking it seriously.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Zipp0 1]

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As the society makes its decisions to lessen the consumption, the demand goes down. Then the prices go down.

Oh, only if that were true. When prices start to drop there will be another mysterious refinery outage, or unscheduled maintanence, reducing supply and providing another excuse to raise prices. I can't believe that these practices are not obvious to everyone yet???

I mean, benefit of the doubt is one thing, but CHRIST.

And Bill, I have taken step to reduce my gas consumption. I can't stand putting gas in my car and money in their fucking gouging coffers. If I could afford the Tesla Electric Car, I would buy one.

When they come out with their more economical model, I will be buying it.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[billvon 2,400]

>And Bill, I have taken step to reduce my gas consumption. . . .
>When they come out with their more economical model, I will be buying it.

Cool! That's a step in the right direction. If lots of people follow your lead, oil companies will have two choices:

1) reduce prices or

2) go out of business.

Indeed, the high price of gas will encourage such a progression sooner rather than later.

[Zipp0 1]

Although, THIS is incredibly troubling -

I was reading about the very successful Rav4EV vehicle program. It could not continue since TEXACO bought the patent rights on the NiMH batteries needed to power the car, and will not allow the battery to be used any more, in any electric car.
(they paid GM $30,000,000 for the patent) Once they had the patent, they sued Toyota and shut down the factory!!!

That should be fucking criminal. It just makes my blood boil. It's so obvious what is going on.

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[TheBachelor 4]

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A bunch of DZ.commers must have fucking Texaco stock. WTF??

No, I own Exxon and Valero. I figured that if you can't beat them, join them. Since I bought the stock, gas prices don't bother me any more. I've made 50 times as much on the stock as I've paid for gas.

[rant]
I see a lot of people bitching about gas prices, but unwilling to change their habits when it comes to using it. Look at all of the SUVs and 8-cylinder trucks/cars on the road. Look at how so many people have jackrabbit starts just to hit the brakes at the next stop sign/light.

In Europe, where gas has been well over $5 a gallon for years, there are tons of tiny cars (like the SMART car), and people actually take public transportation. Most Americans don't want to be bothered -- but they'll still bitch about a business making money. [/rant]

There are battered women? I've been eating 'em plain all of these years...

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

So...I'm reading the paper one day in the last month and see "Exxon posts 10% profit increase" then turn the page and see "Experts predict $4USD/Gallon by mid summer, $5/gallon this time next year."

I haven't read your link yet, but doubt I will see much that surprises me.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[billvon 2,400]

>I was reading about the very successful Rav4EV vehicle program.

Toyota discontinued the program long before Ovonics got bought out. The only reason Toyota was making the Rav4-EV was to meet the California 2% ZEV mandate, which said that 2% of the cars on the road by 1998 had to be zero emissions (basically electric.) As soon as that was bargained down to low-emission vehicles (SULEV's and the equivalent) by the major car companies, Toyota stopped production of the RAV4-EV. Only about 300 were ever sold.

>It could not continue since TEXACO bought the patent rights on the
>NiMH batteries needed to power the car, and will not allow the battery to
>be used any more, in any electric car.

Not quite, but close. It was Cobasys, which is a partnership that includes Chevron. They basically bought a controlling interest in Ovonics/ECD which produced batteries for various applications, including (at one point) the Rav4-EV.

Panasonic tried to copy their cells for their own applications (Panasonic makes a lot of batteries.) The courts ruled against Panasonic, and said that they could not produce batteries for EV's until 2015, but said they could still build batteries for HEV's. That's the primary limiting factor, since Panasonic is the 800-lb gorilla in the NiMH arena.

In the meantime, Ovonics is making as many NiMH's as they can for hybrid vehicles. They aren't making any for pure electric vehicles. Whether that's because they are maxed out making hybrid batteries, or because there is a deliberate effort to supress EV's, is a hotly debated issue. But they are still producing batteries and are still supporting hybrid manufacture.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Cool! That's a step in the right direction. If lots of people follow your lead, oil companies will have two choices:

1) reduce prices or

2) go out of business.

At this point, neither result is likely. The resource is in decline, while developing nation demand (and China) is growing rapidly. That pretty much guarantees a stable to rising price even if Americans made substantial (20%) cutbacks in use. Only with truly amazing change in usage could America drive the prices down. Which is probably good - maybe we can put our tech might into solutions to sell to the developing world.

Allowing all those mergers didn't help - were those in weighing the antitrust doing their jobs, not just rubber stamping, we'd have a few more oil companies around.

[billvon 2,400]

>Only with truly amazing change in usage could America drive the prices down.

I agree - but it is certainly within our power to make such amazing changes. It would take a tremendous amount of effort and money, but would cost less than (for example) the Iraq war, which we have apparently decided is worth paying for. Guaranteeing our energy future is worth at least as much effort.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives is not considered a true academic think tank. The begin all studies by placing their conclusions on the bottom line and then proceeding to justify them.
Their conclusions inevitably fall into the categories of:
1. The capitalists are bad!
2. The conservative politicians are bad!
3. More social spending on the topic at hand would be good.

We also have a "think tank" which begins all studies with the conclusions:
1. The Capitalists are good!
2. The socialist politicians are bad!
3. More social spending on the topic at hand would be a waste.
They are called the Fraser Institute.

[Royd 0]

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I pay, since there is no viable alternative

Bicycle? The most effecient machine ever invented.