Concealed Handguns on College Campuses

[kelpdiver 2]

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To me this sets up the uncomfortable situation where the right to armed self-defense would seem to vary with whether or not an individual is a young undergrad, a mature undergrad, a post-grad or a member of staff.

What's uncomfortable about it?

There are many inequities in college due to age. Only some can (legally) drink. Virtually none of the undergrads can rent a car easily. And 20 year olds can't get a CCW - for that matter they can't own a handgun either.

But they still benefit from those that can. More so than now, when the only ones carrying mean them harm.

[akarunway 1]

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In light of the current national debate over whether or not college students and faculty should be allowed to carry concealed handguns on campus, I would like to offer a few insights into the position in favor of allowing concealed carry on college campuses.

As far as I know, nobody is seriously recommending a mass arming of college students and faculty members. Nobody is suggesting that handguns be included in the orientation packets provided to entering freshmen. Nobody is suggesting that, along with laptop computers and chalkboard erasers, every teacher be issued a handgun. And most certainly nobody is recommending that anyone carry a concealed handgun if he or she is not completely comfortable with the idea and competently trained and licensed to do so. What is being suggested is that students and faculty who have already undergone the training, testing, and rigorous background checks required to obtain concealed handgun licenses be allowed to carry their concealed handguns on campus, just as they already do everywhere else.

Throughout this nation there are thousands upon thousands of college students, age twenty-one and above, and collegiate faculty members who, in accordance with state and federal laws, regularly carry concealed handguns in their off-campus lives. Since the statistics show that these same people carry their weapons without incident when not on campus, why should it be assumed that they would demonstrate any less discretion or sound judgment if carrying on campus?

When it comes to the national debate over gun control, many proponents of stricter gun control argue that gun rights advocates are unwilling to compromise. On the contrary, concealed handgun licensing laws are the perfect compromise. Prospective licensees undergo the types of training and stringent background checks that proponents of gun control advocate, and in return, the licensees are allowed to carry their handguns in public. That is a true compromise—both sides give a little, and both sides get a little.

The background checks performed on persons applying for a concealed handgun license are MUCH more extensive than the instant background checks performed when someone purchases a gun. In Texas, the background checks on applicants often take over a hundred days. In most states these extensive checks include both state and federal fingerprint checks, as well as research into sealed and expunged criminal record and records of mental illness. People are often disqualified for things like recent misdemeanor convictions, such as DUIs.

Along with undergoing background checks, applicants must also prove their handgun proficiency on a firing range and take a class in the applicable state and federal laws, including the legal use of deadly force. The practical shooting test proves an applicant’s knowledge of the proper use of his or her firearm. The class covers hypothetical scenarios, case studies, and the legal ramifications of both the lawful and unlawful use of a concealed handgun. It is almost impossible for an applicant to graduate from one of these classes without a grave respect for the serious responsibility of carrying a concealed handgun.

When a 2006 bill before the Virginia State Senate that would have given holders of concealed handgun licenses the right to carry on college campuses was voted down, Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker happily proclaimed, "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty, and visitors feel safe on our campus." Unfortunately, as recent events have shown, feeling safe is not the same as being safe. The feeling of safety provided by “gun free zones” is an illusion. Even law enforcement officers believe so. An officer with the Lexington, Kentucky, Police Department explained, “If you have a concealed carry [license], then you should be allowed to carry anywhere there are not metal detectors. Saying you cannot carry in certain places, like schools, only makes the people that obey the law stop carrying, not the criminals. Criminals don't see the sign and think, 'Gee, I better not shoot there.'”

Declaring an area a “gun free zone” only frees that zone of guns carried by people intent on obeying the law. A person intent on committing murder or any other crime is not going to be deterred by the knowledge that possessing a firearm in a “gun free zone” is a relatively minor infraction of the law.

Many of those opposed to allowing concealed carry on college campuses claim that the mere presence of concealed handguns would be a distraction that would inhibit the learning environment; however, this disregards the basic premise of a CONCEALED handgun. Concealed handgun licensing laws require licensees to keep their guns concealed, out of respect for those people that might be made uncomfortable by the sight of an openly carried firearm. In the twelve years since Texas passed its concealed handgun licensing act, I have never once noticed another Texan carrying a concealed handgun, even though Texas has one of the highest rates of concealed carry in America. Properly concealed handguns are simply not noticeable to the average citizen. In fact, properly concealed handguns are often difficult to spot, even for a trained eye. Can you tell for certain which of the two men in THIS picture is carrying a concealed handgun? If you hadn’t been told that one of them is, would you suspect either of them of carrying a concealed handgun if you saw them on the street or in a classroom?

There is a popular notion among gun control advocates that a person must have years of training, through which he or she is conditioned to have superhuman reflexes and deadeye accuracy, in order to successfully use a concealed handgun for self-defense. This notion, however, is not supported by the facts. In cases like the recent massacre at Virginia Tech, the 1999 massacre at Columbine High School, and the 1991 massacre at the Luby’s restaurant in Killeen, Texas, the killers worked slowly and methodically, walking up to victims and shooting them at point blank range. It takes neither superhuman reflexes nor deadeye accuracy to defend oneself against a killer who walks from victim to victim, firing from only a few feet away.

In CNN’s interview with Emily Haas, one of the Virginia Tech gunman’s surviving victims, she described hiding under her desk, after her class heard gunshots in the room next door, “waiting and hoping he wouldn’t come in.” But he did come in, and now Emily’s professor and several classmates are dead. Perhaps, had someone in Emily’s classroom been armed with a concealed handgun, at least one person in that room could have done more than wait and hope.

In Dr. Suzanna Gratia Hupp’s 1992 testimony before the Missouri State Senate, in favor of a bill that was later passed, allowing citizens of Missouri to obtain concealed handgun licenses, Dr. Hupp described how she might have prevented the death of both of her parents, during the 1991 Luby’s Massacre, had she been allowed by the state of Texas to carry a concealed handgun:

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"I grew up in a house with no guns. My father was not 'Bubba Hunter.’ In fact he gave up fishing because he didn't like to clean fish. When I grew up and moved out on my own, I was given a gun by a friend, for self protection. I was taught how to use it and knew how to use it correctly, and I carried it my purse. I lived in the country by myself.

"Somewhere along the line I made one of my stupidest decisions—I was afraid that if somebody caught me with the gun in my purse, I could lose my license to practice [chiropractic medicine], lose my ability to make a living. So I took the gun out of my purse, and I left it in my car, which the laws in my state are kind of wishy-washy on. And I thought, 'Heck, if I needed it, it's probably going to be when I'm out on the road, in the middle of nowhere and, you know, my car is broke down or something.

"Everybody in here knows, I think, what happened in Luby's. But, in a nutshell—You know, we all think—and I know you do (indicating a committee member)—We all think that crime happens when you're walking down a dark alley. I've never been involved in any crimes. That's never happened in my life. I was with my parents AT NOON, on a bright sunny day, in Luby's, with a hundred and forty other people, in a town that's not a high crime town.

"This guy drives through the window and starts shooting. This guy has got no history—nothing. Well, my father and I immediately put the table up in front of us, and we all got down behind it, and I—You know your first opinion is “Is this guy robbing this place? What's the deal? What's going on?” And then you're realizing that all he's doing is simply shooting people.

"As he was working his way toward us, I reached for my purse, thinking, ‘Hah! I've got this son of a gun!’ Now, understand, I know what a lot of people think. They think, 'Oh, my God—Then you would have had a gunfight, and then more people would have been killed.’ Nuh-uh. No. I was down on the floor; this guy is standing up; everybody else is down on the floor. I had a perfect shot at him—It would have been clear; I had a place to prop my hand; the guy was not even aware of what we were doing.

“I'm not saying that I could have saved anybody in there, but I would have had a chance. That's all I'm saying is that I would have had a chance. My gun wasn't even in my purse—It was a hundred feet away in my car!"

This same testimony lead to the passing of concealed handgun licensing acts in both Missouri and Texas.

There is absolutely no evidence suggesting that the American people have any reason to fear letting concealed handgun license holders carry their concealed handguns on college campuses, the same way they already carry at grocery stores, shopping malls, and office buildings throughout the nation. Quite simply put, concealed handgun license holders, as a whole, do not contribute to America’s gun problems. In fact, concealed handgun license holders commit felonies at a rate on par with police officers. To date, no police officer has ever been killed by a concealed handgun license holder; however, there have been several well documented cases where police officers have been saved by legally armed citizens.

The issues of gun crime, gun control, and concealed handguns are complicated issues without simple answers, and we would all do well to form opinions on these issues based on careful examination of the facts, rather than on emotion.

A little flawed. While I agree that every law abiding citizen should be able to have a CCW in my home state it's so easy to get one it's not funny. I took my firearms safety class. It was 8 hrs crammed into ONE. Here is your certificate sir. Have a nice day. I copied it, whited out names, put new ones in for my friends. (hypothetical senerio) State just requires a (faxed/mailed) copy. No records kept by the place giving the course. But I checked it out. No felonies and no misd. dui's or drug convictions in the last 3 yrs. Easy as pie baby

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[DZJ 0]

I'm finding the equation of enjoying a drink in a student bar and the right to save yourself from a rampaging murderer a little odd, but if that's the way you see it, then fair enough.

[SkyDekker 1,129]

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Bombs didn't kill anyone at Virginia Tech or the Killeen, TX, Luby's.

Nope guns did. but according to you, taking guns away is not the answer, because if somebody really wanted to do harm, he would find a way. Hence, if he knows that many guns could be around him to so try and stop him, he would just find another way to do the harm. With a bomb for instance. In the end, nobody is any safer and the self-defence tool has become useless.

[Scoop 0]

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Your reply mentioned "hormonal teenagers;" however, if you read the article you should have seen that I only support allowing those people with concealed handgun licenses--people who have already undergone training, testing, and extensive background checks--to carry on college campuses. And as my article clearly states, those people are all over twenty-one years of age, therefore, clearly not teenagers.

You suggested that this would lead to countless accidents and shootings over minor arguments; however, if you read the article, you should have seen that these same people are already carrying concealed handguns in their off-campus lives, without incident. So either you didn't read the article, or you had no rebuttal to the arguments made by the article and chose, instead, to reply to the popular misconceived notions of concealed carry on college campuses.

Thats odd. I could have sworn in the previous post I acknowledged my mistake and apologised

[justinb138 0]

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A little flawed. While I agree that every law abiding citizen should be able to have a CCW in my home state it's so easy to get one it's not funny. I took my firearms safety class. It was 8 hrs crammed into ONE. Here is your certificate sir. Have a nice day. I copied it, whited out names, put new ones in for my friends. (hypothetical senerio) State just requires a (faxed/mailed) copy. No records kept by the place giving the course. But I checked it out. No felonies and no misd. dui's or drug convictions in the last 3 yrs. Easy as pie baby

What's your home state?

Here in TX it requires a 10 hour course, 2 passport photos, fingerprints, and drivers license.

To get the application packet, you have to mail a request form to the DPS, who then sends you the packet. Each of the application packets has a serial # so no copying.

AFAIK, the state requires that the (notarized) originals be mailed, and if there's any little mistake (ie. face is too small in pictures, etc..) they won't process it until it's corrected. I don't know which records the instructors are required to keep.

I'd think attempting that here would likely result in a nice little felony conviction.

[FreeflyChile 0]

I don't have a problem that someone who is properly trained in using guns and all that should be allowed to carry it. I personally dont like it, but if the constitution gives people to right to carry guns, then fine.

My problem with the concealed guns in college is that, in my opinion, college is a place where people make mistakes that they can learn from. For example, it's a place where a lot of people drink for the first time, or at least do things they normally would not do because it's really the first time they are out from under their parents' wing. And if someone gets a ticket for being underage in a bar, or gets so drunk that they get into a fight, then so be it. The ticket might sting, but it's nothing too great in the grand scheme of things.

My biggest concern is that even people who have the proper training and discipline while sober, may not be as such while drunk. Now i know there are people that carry outside of the collegiate world that get drunk, and it doesnt result in mass shootings - i just think that the college party atmosphere is a controlled chaos where there is a tolerance for making mistakes and learning from them. Now, it is scary to think about what might happen if one of these people that are a perfectly disciplined person while sober loses control while drunk, and is armed to boot.

Another concern regarding guns in college for me is that security in the dorms as far as the individual rooms was a joke. Additionally, you have the roommate issue. Granted, i know that most people that are 21 in college are no longer in a dorm situation, but i think there are still times where a person owning a gun may not always be able to monitor the security of his own room (whether it be to ensure his roommate doesnt have access to the gun or whether it be that his room is secure enough so that someoen else finds it).

i think it's an interesting topic for debate, and i think there are pros to each side, but it's a dicey issue because college is not like "real life" and so sometimes real life rules shouldn't necessarily apply.

[justinb138 0]

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My problem with the concealed guns in college is that, in my opinion, college is a place where people make mistakes that they can learn from. For example, it's a place where a lot of people drink for the first time, or at least do things they normally would not do because it's really the first time they are out from under their parents' wing. And if someone gets a ticket for being underage in a bar, or gets so drunk that they get into a fight, then so be it. The ticket might sting, but it's nothing too great in the grand scheme of things.

My biggest concern is that even people who have the proper training and discipline while sober, may not be as such while drunk. Now i know there are people that carry outside of the collegiate world that get drunk, and it doesnt result in mass shootings - i just think that the college party atmosphere is a controlled chaos where there is a tolerance for making mistakes and learning from them. Now, it is scary to think about what might happen if one of these people that are a perfectly disciplined person while sober loses control while drunk, and is armed to boot.

I'm only familiar with Texas law, but it's illegal to carry into bars.

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Another concern regarding guns in college for me is that security in the dorms as far as the individual rooms was a joke.

Easy solution. Keep it with you when you're not there.

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Additionally, you have the roommate issue. Granted, i know that most people that are 21 in college are no longer in a dorm situation, but i think there are still times where a person owning a gun may not always be able to monitor the security of his own room (whether it be to ensure his roommate doesnt have access to the gun or whether it be that his room is secure enough so that someoen else finds it).

i think it's an interesting topic for debate, and i think there are pros to each side, but it's a dicey issue because college is not like "real life" and so sometimes real life rules shouldn't necessarily apply.

Small gun safes are readily available, I've got one in my closet, it's where I keep my 2 pistols when I'm not home and they're not with me, or when I am home and there are people over.

[Botellines 0]

well said, i would like to add a couple of points...

First of all since the idiot who goes into rampage is not expecting to make it out alive, the deterrent factor of an armed campus is zero.
An armed campus means unlimited ammo for the bad guy who only has to pick weapons up from the dead bodies like a videogame.

Or the nuttie can just shoot a couple of people with a stolen gun, hide and watch the fun unfold when a lot of armed youngster start shooting eachother.

[FreeflyChile 0]

Well, even if its illegal to carry into a bar, bars are not the only places people get tanked on campus.

I guess my concern with this is not with the people who are truly responsible and understand their responsibilities, and also can be trusted even when under altered states. It'd be the fringe people who are able to get a gun, but then later either dont have or lose the discipline and the ability to think clearly.

On a related note, and this is my own curiousity, not meant to start anything.... there's been discussion that if someone close to the situation that happened at VT were carrying, the toll wouldnt be as heavy. my question is, are there any studies to show how many people (as a percentage of population, actual numbers, whatever) that dont carry would if they were allowed to? do we know if any of the people that were in those classrooms would have been packing if they had been allowed to? i guess i just think that the only way that point of view has any persuasive effect for me is if there is a way to know for sure whether anyone there would have been armed had they had the option to be.

[justinb138 0]

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well said, i would like to add a couple of points...

Care to add any reasonable ones?

[craddock 0]

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Well, even if its illegal to carry into a bar, bars are not the only places people get tanked on campus.

I am not aware of any state that allows an intoxicated person to carry. Regardless of were they get intoxicated at. It is against the law

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[FreeflyChile 0]

maybe im not making my point of view clear. im not saying that its legal or not to carry while drunk. im concerned that even if it is illegal, it will happen. it's not legal for someone to have been drinking while under 21 either, but in colleges it happens all the time.

so im concerned that just as people are relaxed towards drinking laws as they apply to other things (such as underage drinking or drunk driving), people would also take lightly laws that prevent drinking and carrying.

im aware that there are people here who are probably very responsible in the way they handle their weapons. im guessing that those are the same people that voice their opinions as to the gun debate. i can respect that. im just saying that i dont think their sense of responsibility can be imputed to everyone else, especially in an atmosphere that lends itself to, and in some instances encourages, irresponsibility.

[Douva 0]

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But if everybody has a gun, won't they be prone to getting angry and blowing someone head off? Giving guns to kids surely can't be a good idea.

Isn't that what we just saw last week? 32 unanswered murders. 1 person with a weapon of their own could have ended it.

Additionally... we aren't talking about kids...we're talking about men and women, over 21 years of age, that have gone through the background checks and training to carry a concealed pistol.

If the age limit is 21, the vast majority of undergrads aren't going to be able to carry concealed, even if they wanted to and if their college permitted them.

To me this sets up the uncomfortable situation where the right to armed self-defense would seem to vary with whether or not an individual is a young undergrad, a mature undergrad, a post-grad or a member of staff.

Why is that uncomfortable? All we're saying is that people who are allowed to carry everywhere else should be allowed to carry on college campuses. Why is that such a stretch?

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Douva 0]

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I don't have a problem that someone who is properly trained in using guns and all that should be allowed to carry it. I personally dont like it, but if the constitution gives people to right to carry guns, then fine.

My problem with the concealed guns in college is that, in my opinion, college is a place where people make mistakes that they can learn from. For example, it's a place where a lot of people drink for the first time, or at least do things they normally would not do because it's really the first time they are out from under their parents' wing. And if someone gets a ticket for being underage in a bar, or gets so drunk that they get into a fight, then so be it. The ticket might sting, but it's nothing too great in the grand scheme of things.

My biggest concern is that even people who have the proper training and discipline while sober, may not be as such while drunk. Now i know there are people that carry outside of the collegiate world that get drunk, and it doesnt result in mass shootings - i just think that the college party atmosphere is a controlled chaos where there is a tolerance for making mistakes and learning from them. Now, it is scary to think about what might happen if one of these people that are a perfectly disciplined person while sober loses control while drunk, and is armed to boot.

Another concern regarding guns in college for me is that security in the dorms as far as the individual rooms was a joke. Additionally, you have the roommate issue. Granted, i know that most people that are 21 in college are no longer in a dorm situation, but i think there are still times where a person owning a gun may not always be able to monitor the security of his own room (whether it be to ensure his roommate doesnt have access to the gun or whether it be that his room is secure enough so that someoen else finds it).

i think it's an interesting topic for debate, and i think there are pros to each side, but it's a dicey issue because college is not like "real life" and so sometimes real life rules shouldn't necessarily apply.

You do undestand that we're talking about legalizing carry ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES, right? It's already legal for college students to carry almost everywhere else, and it's already illegal for anyone to carry while intoxicated or in a bar, so how does your argument about drinking in college apply to allowing properly licensed college students to carry their concealed handguns ON CAMPUS?

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Douva 0]

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well said, i would like to add a couple of points...

First of all since the idiot who goes into rampage is not expecting to make it out alive, the deterrent factor of an armed campus is zero.
An armed campus means unlimited ammo for the bad guy who only has to pick weapons up from the dead bodies like a videogame.

Or the nuttie can just shoot a couple of people with a stolen gun, hide and watch the fun unfold when a lot of armed youngster start shooting eachother.

The VT killer had ammunition left over, so I don't see how your "unlimited ammo" theory applies here. I'm not concerned with the deterent factor; I'm concerned with giving people the option to do more than hide under their desks waiting to die.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[FreeflyChile 0]

Well, I wasn't really trying to argue for or against it. I was trying to just voice my concerns or thoughts about it, and i wanted to see what people proposing this thought.

I think you're right in one sense, that if you are allowed to carry everywhere else, you should be allowed to carry on a college campus. Isolated in and of itself, that logic of "I can do it elsewhere that is public, why not there" makes sense to me.

At the same time, Im not so sure it's a good idea because of the type of behavior that goes on in college. I just wanted to see a response that addressed those thoughts.

Personally, I think the gun debate is an interesting one. Usually, I don't engage in them because they turn into shouting matches that really don't do much for me as far as getting new information or points of view. I thought your original post seemed level headed and thought provoking to where i posted about it, and was curious if anyone else had the same thoughts about people carrying guns on college campuses that i do, or if perhaps someone who would advocate this could address my concerns in a way where i could understand the other side of the argument.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I'm finding the equation of enjoying a drink in a student bar and the right to save yourself from a rampaging murderer a little odd, but if that's the way you see it, then fair enough.

you raised an issue of inequity. If you surveyed the college population of the US, I think more would be pissed about their inability to freely score booze.

Sure, from a rights perspective they are on slightly different planes.

[beowulf 1]

Sooo you think that as soon as person who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon goes to college they become irresponsible and are more likely to shoot people???

[kelpdiver 2]

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maybe im not making my point of view clear. im not saying that its legal or not to carry while drunk. im concerned that even if it is illegal, it will happen.

millions of Americans have CCWs and have demonstrated a very strong record when it comes to responsibility. I'm fairly confident that if the 21-25 year old cohort showed a tendency to get lit and then flash their guns, the Brady people would be telling us about it. (and grossly exaggerating their numbers).

It's fair to ask these sort of questions, and project other presumed fears, but we're not operating in a vacuum here. College kids own guns already. CCW permits exist already, including in the state in question. Last year a bill was blocked that would have permitted conceal carry on the universities of the state.

[kelpdiver 2]

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First of all since the idiot who goes into rampage is not expecting to make it out alive, the deterrent factor of an armed campus is zero.

The deterrent is far greater than zero. If a person just wanted to kill himself, he could commit suicide like the thousands of others. Or try pulling out a gun at a police station or a gun range.

This person did a good amount of planning - if he presumed he would be shot down in the first few minutes, I doubt he'd have bothered. Having been a failure his whole life, he doesn't want his last act to be a pathetic failure too.

Absolute deterrence? Of course not.

[FreeflyChile 0]

No, i don't think someone already licensed goes to college and becomes instantly irresponsible.

I think the college environment, at least as I experienced it, lends itself to situations where people would do things they normally wouldn't do, or that they won't do later in life. I'm just wondering whether permitting concealed weapons in such an environment will make things better or worse.

Again, I understand that there are people who own guns that treat that right with the respect it deserves and take measures to ensure safety and responsibility. Those are not the type of people who I would be concerned about.

[billvon 2,406]

As I've said before, such an action (allowing concealed carry on campus) would have some good effects. It would serve as a deterrent to non-suicidal killers, and would likely reduce the number of victims before the killer was stopped.

It would also have some bad effects. If several people have weapons in dorm rooms on campus, then guns are going to be more available to people who would use them to do harm. Instead of requiring planning and a bit of money, a killing spree could be started on impulse - whether the killer was the drunken owner of the weapon, his roommate, or her recently-jilted boyfriend.

Many colleges have a not-insignificant suicide problem, and (relatively) easy availability of guns would likely increase the success rate of suicide attempts. It was a serious problem at our school, but we were able to stop most suicide attempts (which I think is a good thing.)

So overall six of one, half a dozen of the other.

[kelpdiver 2]

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So overall six of one, half a dozen of the other.

uh, you never showed equality between the two. And most of your negatives presumed dorm rooms, even though most 21 year olds opt to live elsewhere. The positives come regardless of where the person lives.

[billvon 2,406]

>uh, you never showed equality between the two.

They're definitely not equal, and I don't think you could really determine with any accuracy which one is more likely to cause problems. Onetime shooting/suicide? Leans towards availability of guns leading to problems. Massacre? Leans towards lack of "stopping power" being a problem. But I think it's impossible to predict which one a given school is more prone to.

>And most of your negatives presumed dorm rooms . . .

Well, a college living situation. You have the same problems in a nearby frat or shared apartment. You wouldn't have the same problem with a student living at home, or by himself. (Although the suicide issue would still be an issue no matter where he lives.)