USA - Glorifying guns?

[lawrocket 3]

You are correct in many ways, bill. However, many can look at the coverage of this event and say that it is glorifying it.

There are goign to be hundreds of millions who will despise this guy for doing it. But when the press is reporting this as the "deadliest shooting in U.S. history," there will be others out there who view him as a role-model. Seriously! There are people out there who would want to break the record he set.

Is this due to the glrofication of guns? I can say that it seems these people all feel victimized in one way or another - they usually seem to feel picked on, bullied, or otherwise without power. With guns, they find that power that they have been seeing themselves as lacking.

Is that the problem with guns? Is that the glorification? That guns bring power that otherwise the person would not have? If that is the case, then the solution may be to equalize that power in one way or another.

My preferred method would be to have the power evened out by placing the equalizer in the hands of others. Honestly - you've got probably millions of concealed carriers, and remarkably few use these guns for any reason.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 2,450]

>Is this due to the glrofication of guns?

Is it due to it? No. Is it part of it? Yes.

>My preferred method would be to have the power evened out by
>placing the equalizer in the hands of others.

I think it's pretty clear that placing those guns in the hands of law abiding citizens could help prevent another tragedy like this one. I think it's equally clear that placing those guns in the hands of the people you describe (who would want to break the record he set) would result in many more tragedies like this one. Which is why I think a solution like "give everyone guns" (or even "take everyone's guns away") won't help - or to be more accurate won't work any more or less than doing nothing.

[NCclimber 0]

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If all of those blacks were rich, the crime rate would be near 0. That's why the issue is NOT race, but income inequality.

Oh

Okay.

Well, it seems that you are saying that blacks have some kind of genetic pre-disposition to be criminals. Is that what you are saying? Because if it is, I'd like you to show me THAT study.

I'm just saying the numbers show the incidence of gun injuries by blacks to be significantly higher than that of whites. I don't think I've even hinted that it's about some kind of genetic pre-disposition. I would challenge any such claim.

On a side note, previously I asked you for studies pertaining to income. After you replied, I posted "Where do any of these studies show "it is not an issue of race"?".

In other words, I screwed up. Despite what some around here may think, I try to keep debates on track and not resort to cheap ploys.

Sorry about that.

[Duckwater 0]

There are cetrain socio-economic classes that are prone to violence and criminal behavior. A lot of minorities are in these classes, as well and a disproportionate number of whites.

I dont care what color your skin is, if you are raised in that class, you will almost assuredly continue to maintain the demographic.

What sucks is, the blacks with money and influence are promoting the 'gangster' lifestyle. I wish a meteor would hit sharpon and Jackson and then Bill Cosby takes over.

The problem is, Bill Cosby's solution will take hard work and lifestyle and attitude change as well as much needed accountability, unlike the current method of waiting for some poor white idiot to say something inappropriate then blame him for all of societies ills.

I blame the media for fanning the flames. Every black person I know despises Jackson and Sharpton as much as I do.

[DaVinci 0]

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Well, as I said I was going to leave that till I'm bored to tears at work. Give it two hours and I'll start looking.

Cool, when you don't find many will you admit that as well? If you find a bunch I will admit you are correct...We can argue about many/a bunch later .

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In the mean time, do you think that the USA has a cultural problem with its attitude towards guns?

In some sectors yes, others no. People in low income, low hope areas often turn to gangs and violence to feel credible. I think that that type of person has a problem with violence, not guns. However, I feel that is a much smaller section of society as a whole. I also feel that that group would engage in violent acts no matter what and that a gun is just the tool they use since it works well.

I do feel that laws only hurt guys like me, not guys like them.

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Do you think that the USA's firearms homicide rate is a problem?

Again yes and no. I think the homicide rate is a problem, but not just due to guns. I think the rate would still be high without guns. People have killed without guns for thousands of years, and they STILL kill without guns today.

It is more a problem with people in destitute areas seeing violence as a way out. The gun is just a tool to implement violence.

The gun is picked since it is the best tool to use to commit a violent act. However, it is also one of the best defenses as well, and a person without a gun has little chance against a person with a gun.

I like the idea of crushing those that use tools for evil, no matter what the tool. I don't want to eliminate lighters when a guy uses one to set a fire...And getting rid of lighters would not stop a guy from setting a fire if he really wanted anyway...But it would make it hard for a guy that wanted to light a cigarette, or burn threads off while sewing. Same with gun laws IMO.

[NCclimber 0]

How about is we just prohibit poor people from having guns???

[Zipp0 1]

Thanks for your honesty.
It is indeed a very complicated set of issues. There is poverty, but also cultural and pop culture issues that affect all of this. There is no doubt that the 'gangsta' lifestyle comes into play, but then you have to look at where that comes from. Then you also have to consider why certain groups of people make up the majority of our poor, and that is difficult to determine with any measure of certainty.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[jakee 1,265]

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Cool, when you don't find many will you admit that as well? If you find a bunch I will admit you are correct...We can argue about many/a bunch later

Deal. And since the sheer volume of gun posts here in Sc is, ah, slightly higher than I realised I may have to just that

In the mean time, an interesting discussion...

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In some sectors yes, others no. People in low income, low hope areas often turn to gangs and violence to feel credible. I think that that type of person has a problem with violence, not guns. However, I feel that is a much smaller section of society as a whole. I also feel that that group would engage in violent acts no matter what and that a gun is just the tool they use since it works well.

Ok, it may well be a small group that is responsible for most of the murder rate. Why, in America, is that group so much larger than in other developed countries? What is it, in your view, that makes poor disenfranchised Americans more likely to turn to Gang violence/ gun crime than poor people in Europe or Canada?

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It is more a problem with people in destitute areas seeing violence as a way out. The gun is just a tool to implement violence.

As I said in my first post, I don't think that guns alone are the problem. The question is why do Americans (or certain groups of Americans) seem so much more likely to use them than the same groups in other countries?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rehmwa 2]

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>hich is why I think a solution like "give everyone guns"

I have seen zero people propose this.

I have seen 5 different people argue against it so far.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[lawrocket 3]

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4. It shows that criminals don't obey gun laws.

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Do we know whether he had a criminal record before shooting his first victim, or was he a "law abiding gun owner" up until that time?

No, we don't. I would assume that he probably had no criminal troubles in his past - at least no convictions. We can make that assumption.

But, if a guy is going to kill someone, you can safely assume that if he pays no mind to gun laws. And if a guy's intent is to kill himself in the process, yeah, he's worried that he may be punished for breaking the law.

And if his goal is to kill as many people as possible without worrying about them shooting back, then the best place to go is a school - a rural or suburban school. Why not inner city? Well, I don't recall reading of inner city school shootings occurring on campus - probably because of the guards, metal detectors, etc., that make those places far more difficult to do this.

Why go try to shoot up an inner city school when he probably won't even get past the armed guards? Go to a rural or suburban school, enter a classroom, and start blazing away! He'll have burned through his ammo before the cops even get there.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rehmwa 2]

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In other words, I screwed up.

you didn't 'screw up'. all you did was ask about stats, not state anything about cause

the unfair inference was the screw up, especially when you posted "oh" as in "oh, I understand what you mean"

why fess up to someone else's mistake??

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Douva 0]

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I think it's pretty clear that placing those guns in the hands of law abiding citizens could help prevent another tragedy like this one. I think it's equally clear that placing those guns in the hands of the people you describe (who would want to break the record he set) would result in many more tragedies like this one. Which is why I think a solution like "give everyone guns" (or even "take everyone's guns away") won't help - or to be more accurate won't work any more or less than doing nothing.

Well put, Bill. There are no simple solutions to complex problems, and only fools and tyrants suggest there are.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Andy9o8 0]

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which is why I think a solution like "give everyone guns"

I have seen zero people propose this.

In the (now locked) thread "At least 20 killed at Virginia Tech", some people came pretty close to it.

[lawrocket 3]

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I think it's pretty clear that placing those guns in the hands of law abiding citizens could help prevent another tragedy like this one.

Agreed.

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I think it's equally clear that placing those guns in the hands of the people you describe (who would want to break the record he set) would result in many more tragedies like this one.

I agree. What I don't know is whether there would be less frequent episodes with higher loss of life, or more frequent episodes with less loss of life. Impossible to predict, really.

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Which is why I think a solution like "give everyone guns" (or even "take everyone's guns away") won't help - or to be more accurate won't work any more or less than doing nothing.

I am forced to agree, as much as I hate doing that sometimes.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 1,659]

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Do we know whether he had a criminal record before shooting his first victim, or was he a "law abiding gun owner" up until that time?

I think it is safe to say he was not a law abiding gun owner before he shot his first victim. His 9mm and .22 handguns had the serial numbers removed. Not legal

Ohh, that's gotta hurt, John.

According to the VA State Police, both guns were obtained LEGALLY.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Do we know whether he had a criminal record before shooting his first victim, or was he a "law abiding gun owner" up until that time?

No, we don't. I would assume that he probably had no criminal troubles in his past - at least no convictions. We can make that assumption.

He purchased the guns just this past March from a store called Roanoke Firearms for $571. He had three forms of ID and passed the online background check in one minute. Source:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/vtech.shooting/index.html

More info on the kid:
http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/ This is a blog of a VT student that works for AOL and had Cho in his writing class.

Two stories that Cho wrote are on that AOL blog link as well. It seems the John character is speaking from Cho's POV and he has some major issues with authority figures.

In regards to the Original Post (and I am sure this will bring out the NRA folk in volleys):
Australian Leader Decries U.S. 'Gun Culture'
http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles/_a/australian-leader-decries-us-gun-culture/20070417110909990001 He delves into the tragedy his own country suffered and how he believes the change to their laws have helped lower crime.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[PWScottIV 0]

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This is complete bullshit..

Just today...www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2764092#2764092

The bullshit is all yours.

Yeah, god forbid someone would recommend safer ammo. That's terrible. I think we should only allow armor piercing rounds... And yeah, a lot of posters on here ARE probably "afraid to go outside without being able to shoot someone"... They want to be able to shoot someone who wants to take away our constitutional rights.

Gravity Waits for No One.

[craddock 0]

They are saying that he had a reciept for the Glock that he bought in March

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Do we know whether he had a criminal record before shooting his first victim, or was he a "law abiding gun owner" up until that time?

I think it is safe to say he was not a law abiding gun owner before he shot his first victim. His 9mm and .22 handguns had the serial numbers removed. Not legal

Ohh, that's gotta hurt, John.

According to the VA State Police, both guns were obtained LEGALLY.

Yep. They were legal up till the point where he filed off the serial numbers. (Guess he thought about surviving the event).

Possession of weapons with altered or obscured serial numbers is considered proof of bad intent and I believe is a felony. There is no defense for it, so yes, he was a criminal before he shot his first victim.

[PWScottIV 0]

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The 2nd Amendmend comes with a price.

Freedom comes with a price. If you think for a moment that it's too big of a price, then you might want to seriously consider what our lives might be like without it. It's easy to take freedom for granted when it's all you've known.

Fucking with the constitution will do nothing more than chip away at the foundation of our freedom.

Gravity Waits for No One.

[Stumpy 256]

However - he was a law abiding gun owner when he purchased them. Go figure.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Possession of weapons with altered or obscured serial numbers is considered proof of bad intent and I believe is a felony. There is no defense for it, so yes, he was a criminal before he shot his first victim.

Spliting hairs at this point. The guns were purchased legally. He most likely had criminal intent that day. He certainly had it as he planned it out, wrote the note, chained the doors shut, etc. Who knows when he filed the numbers off...but my thought is he was well on his way to acting like a criminal before that event. I don't think any new or different gun laws would have prevented him from killing someone. However I do believe that his easy access to guns allowed him to take out a lot more.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[wmw999 2,163]

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you might want to seriously consider what our lives might be like without it

Not to quibble, but many countries with more restrictive gun laws are full of happy, fulfilled people who probably feel as safe as i do.

to make it clear -- i'm not for banning guns. i used to take my son to the gun range. But, well, it's not the be-all and end-all, and it sure isn't a prerequisite for happiness.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[tbrown 26]

I used to be stronly in favor of gun control, and maybe in a more perfect world I still would be. But Hurricane Katrina and what happened to New Orleans has changed my mind. Law and order disintegrated in an American city and the only peole who were able to protect their homes from being looted were the ones who dat out on the front porch with their guns in plain sight.

What happened at Virginia Tech could still happen, even with stricter gun control laws. But the actions of one criminal, or crazy person, do not make the case for denying law abiding people the protection guaranteed them by their Constitution. And that's all there is to it.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[kelpdiver 2]

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They are saying that he had a reciept for the Glock that he bought in March

further to this - the background check application may have questions involving psychiatric care that may have been applicable at the time. But I haven't filled one out in California in years, plus there may be state to state variation.