USA - Glorifying guns?

[Zipp0 1]

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In the context of the current tragedy, isn't this thread null and void, considering the gunman is a S. Korean national, not a US citizen?

In the context of America's generally appalling firearms homicide rate isn't this thread still extremely relevant?

And let's break it down by race.



Or is that taboo?

Not taboo, just irrelevant. As I have stated before, it is not an issue of race, but of poverty. Rich minorities do not kill each other any more than rich whites.

Most homicides in the USA are a direct result of stupid drug laws.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[sundevil777 94]

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We also learned personal responsibility of what was and was not an appropriate use of a gun.

Quite right! We can agree on some things.

At a very young age, I was using guns and rifles at target ranges with my father, who was a very accomplished competitive target shooter (especially the long distances up to 1000 yards) that owned about 15 rifles. I always helped him do his own reloading. I NEVER had the slightest inclination to play with the guns inappropriately, because there was no mystery to them, I knew what they could do, and knew that I would be able to play with them at the range.

The US Supreme Court recently affirmed the issue of how the 2nd amendment should be interpreted. We should also remember the framers of the constitution saw only one issue to be more important than the right to own guns.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[NCclimber 0]

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From what you've shown the answers are:

1) 0
2) 1
3) 1*

And the * stands for? Regardless, your numbers are incorrect.

How so?

You claim you gave an example of someone being afraid to leave the house without being able to shoot someone. Where?

You gave one example of a single poster asking what the best bullet for killing people is - sort of.

And you gave one example ( * - which could easily be read as an exaggeration) of someone saying it would have been much better if the OP had shot everyone instead of just scaring them off.

I can see how some would think this forum is overrun with halfcocked, gun-crazy maniacs. It's obviously rampant.

[DaVinci 0]

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You can look back on this forum and see just (1) how many posters are afraid to leave the house without being able to shoot someone, (2) how many posters want to know what the best bullet for killing people is, (3) how many posters reply to stories of succesful deterrance with the suggestion that it would have been much better if the OP had shot everyone instead of just scaring them off.

I am waiting for the list of posters that are afraid to leave the house without being armed. Of course the Vtec shootings kinda show how being unarmed could be very bad.

Best bullet for killing. Most times it is written as best for Defense. Yep, it gets talked about just like people talk about which AAD to get. Most time the defense answer involves how to stop without risking others...A good topic.

Shoot and then lie to the police. People do make those types of claims. I put that up to bravado. Most people who would actually shoot a weapon in a real situation will need the clean out their pants afterward.

But I am still waiting on the list of people afraid to leave the house without a weapon.

[Douva 0]

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I think some of the school gun problems are caused by the glorification of guns in the media

take (c)rap music, you've got all these low life "ganstaz" who want to appear cool, so they all talk bollocks....sorry, rap about guns and how their "nine is loaded" and other shite, what kind of image does this present to impressionable people?

Does the media in general need to stop glorifying guns ?

I agree; though, I wouldn't call it the "glorification of guns;" I'd call it the "mystification of guns." In the minds of too many young Americans, we turn guns into some mysterious, mystical toy. Rather than appreciating guns as practical tools that must be treated with respect and caution, they see guns as gateways to the world of action films and video games. These people are worse than the people who fear guns because these people deify guns and yet have no true respect for them.

When I was a kid, I knew exactly where my dad kept his guns, but I never once tried to look at them on my own because I knew that I could get my dad to show them to me any time I wanted. I'd been told that if I ever tried to look at them by myself, I'd be in the worst trouble I'd ever been in, and I'd been told that many kids died each year looking at their parents' guns, so it was a lot easier for me to just find my dad and ask, "Dad, can I look at the pistol?" By the time I was grown, guns held no mystic quality to me--They were just a part of life.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Zipp0 1]

Yes. You never hear of redneck kids going on a killing spree with their deer rifles. It's always some freak in a trench coat trying to be a bad ass or emulate some pop culture icon.

I think, if anything, we should lock up anyone considered a 'loner'.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[lawrocket 3]

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In the context of the current tragedy, isn't this thread null and void, considering the gunman is a S. Korean national, not a US citizen?

In the context of America's generally appalling firearms homicide rate isn't this thread still extremely relevant?

Yes. Of course, I see it from my own angle. I don't believe that we are glorifying guns, with the exception of certain subcultures. The gun related homicide rate is, indeed, highest in the poor areas. There IS a distinct glorification of guns.

But to see the viewpoint of society, take a look at the history of laws relating to guns in the last couple of decades. Have the laws been more restrictive or granted more freedoms? The answer is obvious.

It's difficult to say that a society glorifies guns, while at the same time takes steps to limit them - or ban them outright.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[quade 3]

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You never hear of redneck kids going on a killing spree with their deer rifles. It's always some freak in a trench coat trying to be a bad ass or emulate some pop culture icon.

I guess you really would need to define the terms "redneck" and "deer rifle".

August 1, 1966
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_700

For example.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[NCclimber 0]

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Not taboo, just irrelevant. As I have stated before, it is not an issue of race, but of poverty. Rich minorities do not kill each other any more than rich whites.

Got anything to back this up? I ask because I looked. I found gun crimes and homicide broken down by race, age, marital status, urban vs. rural - but nothing about income. How 'bout it?

[jakee 1,262]

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But I am still waiting on the list of people afraid to leave the house without a weapon.

Well, as I said I was going to leave that till I'm bored to tears at work. Give it two hours and I'll start looking.

In the mean time, do you think that the USA has a cultural problem with its attitude towards guns? Do you think that the USA's firearms homicide rate is a problem?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,442]

>It's difficult to say that a society glorifies guns, while at the same
>time takes steps to limit them - or ban them outright.

??

Society certainly glorifies business jets; they are one of the most ostentatious symbols of wealth in the US. Yet that sort of aviation is one of the most heavily regulated activities in the US.

Many parts of society glorify drugs. Alcohol is definitely glorified in entertainment quite often. Street racing has been hyped in several movies - indeed, even a law-abiding hero is not worth his salt unless he can slide sideways at 70mph down city streets in pursuit of a bad guy.

I don't see glorification to be the antonym of regulation; quite the opposite. Things that people wish to emulate DO become more heavily regulated, because the more people emulate something, the more likely they are to do it in a dangerous, careless or reckless manner.

[HeadCone 0]

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Guns are not the problem. The problem is suicial people who feel the need to take others with them. There are literally hundreds of ways for this to happen. If this guy didn't have a gun, what prevents him from filling 10 wine bottles with gasoline with rags in the top, putting them in his backpack, and roaming the halls tossing them into classrooms? The same goes for pipe bombs. We can't outlaw pipes and gasoline, can we?

This guy planned this out for a while. He got a gun, filed off the ser#, got ammo and magazines for his planned rampage, and probably practiced with the weapon. He was determined to kill lots of people. If he didn't have the gun, he would have found a way.

The bottom line is, no government official can guarantee your safety, so protect yourself, or take your chances.

I agree. From Va. Tech gunman writings raised concerns

News reports also said that he may have been taking medication for depression, that he was becoming increasingly violent and erratic, and that he left a note in his dorm in which he railed against "rich kids," "debauchery" and "deceitful charlatans" on campus.

...

The Chicago Tribune reported on its Web site that he left a note in his dorm room that included a rambling list of grievances. Citing identified sources, the Tribune said he had recently shown troubling signs, including setting a fire in a dorm room and stalking some women.

He was going to go ballistic regarless of whether or not he had a gun.

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[Zipp0 1]

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Got anything to back this up? How 'bout it?

No problema.

Fajnzylber, P., D. Lederman and N. Loayza, 1998, "What causes violent crime?", The World Bank, Office of the Chief Economist, Latin America and the Caribbean Region, processed.

This cross-country study of the determinants of violence finds that income inequality raises crime rates, deterrence effects are significant, crime tends to be counter-cyclical, and criminal inertia is significant.

This study uses a new data set of crime rates for a large sample of countries for the period 1970-1994, based on information from the United Nations World Crime Surveys, to analyze the determinants of national homicide and robbery rates. A simple model of the incentives to commit crimes is proposed, which explicitly considers possible causes of the persistence of crime over time (criminal inertia). Several econometric models are estimated, attempting to capture the determinants of crime rates across countries and over time. The empirical models are first run for cross-sections and then applied to panel data. The former focus on explanatory variables that do not change markedly over time, while the panel data techniques consider both the effect of the business cycle (i.e., GDP growth rate) on the crime rate and criminal inertia (accounted for by the inclusion of lagged crime rate as an explanatory variable). The panel data techniques also consider country-specific effects, the joint endogeneity of some of the explanatory variables, and the existence of some types of measurement errors afflicting the crime data. The results show that increases in income inequality raise crime rates, deterrence effects are significant, crime tends to be counter-cyclical, and criminal inertia is significant even after controlling for other potential determinants of homicide and robbery rates.



Hsieh, C. and M.D. Pugh, 1993, "Poverty, income inequality, and violent crime: a meta-analysis of recent aggregate data studies", Criminal Justice Review, 18(2): 182-202.

This paper reports on 34 aggregate data studies that almost all find a positive correlation between violent crime on one hand and poverty and income inequality on the other.

In the late 1970s and early 1980s, several important reviews of the literature failed to establish a clear consensus on the relationship between economic conditions and violent crime. The research presented here applies the procedures of meta-analysis to 34 aggregate data studies reporting on violent crime, poverty, and income inequality. These studies reported a total of 76 zero-order correlation coefficients for all measures of violent crime with either poverty or income inequality. Of the 76 coefficients, all but 2, or 97 percent, were positive. Of the positive coefficients, nearly 80 percent were of at least moderate strength (> 0.25). It is concluded that poverty and income inequality are each associated with violent crime. The analysis, however, shows considerable variation in the estimated size of the relationships and suggests that homicide and assault may be more closely associated with poverty or income inequality than are rape and robbery.



Kennedy, B.P. and I. Kawachi, D. Prothrow-Stith, K. Lochner and B. Gibbs, 1998, "Social capital, income inequality, and firearm violent crime", Social Science and Medicine, 47(1): 7-17.

This paper finds that income inequality and social capital are highly correlated with firearm violent crime rates.

Studies have shown that poverty and income are powerful predictors of homicide and violent crime. The authors hypothesized that the effect of the growing gap between the rich and poor is mediated through an undermining of social cohesion, or social capital, and that decreased social capital is in turn associated with increased firearm homicide and violent crime. Social capital was measured by the weighted responses to two items from the U.S. General Social Survey: the per capita density of membership in voluntary groups in each state; and the level of social trust, as gauged by the proportion of residents in each state who believed that "most people would take advantage of you if they got the chance". Age-standardized firearm homicide rates for the years 1987-1991 and firearm robbery and assault incidence rates for years 1991-1994 were obtained for each of the 50 U.S. states. Income inequality was strongly correlated with firearm violent crime (firearm homicide, r=0.76) as well as the measures of social capital: per capita group membership (r=-0.40) and lack of social trust (r=0.73). In turn, both social trust (firearm homicide, r=0.83) and group membership (firearm homicide, r=-0.49) were associated with firearm violent crime. These relationships held when controlling for poverty and a proxy variable for access to firearms. The profound effects of income inequality and social capital, when controlling for other factors such as poverty and firearm availability, on firearm violent crime indicate that policies that address these broader, macro-social forces warrant serious consideration.

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Boo-Yah, beotch.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[craddock 0]

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But to see the viewpoint of society, take a look at the history of laws relating to guns in the last couple of decades. Have the laws been more restrictive or granted more freedoms? The answer is obvious.

It is not that obvious to me. At first without thinking I said granted more freedoms. But then I thought about states like California and some East Coast stated that have gun control measured put in place over the last couple decades. So I guess it depends on what you mean.

In the late 80's Florida became the first state to become a "Shall" Issue state. Today we have 39 shall issue states with only two states having no provisions for concealed carry. With the sunset of the 94 AWB ban I asuume the obvious is less restrictive?


see

http://www.gun-nuttery.com/rtc.php

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[NCclimber 0]

Where do any of these studies show "it is not an issue of race"?

How 'bout it, be-otch?

And I noticed you didn't reply to my last post in your Big Oil/high gas prices conspiracy theory thread. Hmm.

[kallend 1,653]

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4. It shows that criminals don't obey gun laws.

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Do we know whether he had a criminal record before shooting his first victim, or was he a "law abiding gun owner" up until that time?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[craddock 0]

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Do we know whether he had a criminal record before shooting his first victim, or was he a "law abiding gun owner" up until that time?

I think it is safe to say he was not a law abiding gun owner before he shot his first victim. His 9mm and .22 handguns had the serial numbers removed. Not legal

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[Zipp0 1]

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Where do any of these studies show "it is not an issue of race"?

How 'bout it, be-otch?

And I noticed you didn't reply to my last post in your Big Oil/high gas prices conspiracy theory thread. Hmm.

How about we just go ahead and deal with one thread at a time, mmmmm-kay champ? Great.

I said the issue is poverty, and the studies I cited back me up 100%. As far as the race goes, that's an issue for racists and bigots, so I'll leave it to them.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I think some of the school gun problems are caused by the glorification of guns in the media

Hollywood doesn't come close to glorying guns the way that Hong Kong does. Compare the body count in a Lethal Weapon or Die Hard movie to one of the Better Tomorrow or Hard Boiled movies.

It may or may not have caused the comical sideways shooting manner, but that could only serve to reduce deaths with the lower accuracy.

[NCclimber 0]

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I said the issue is poverty, and the studies I cited back me up 100%.

That's half of what you said. The other being it's not about race.

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As far as the race goes, that's an issue for racists and bigots, so I'll leave it to them.

Like I said, it's taboo.

The incidence of gun related fatalities for blacks is nearly three times higher than for whites.

The incidence of gun related non-fatalities for blacks is nine times higher than for whites.

Granted this is a complex issue and not as black and white as some try to make it. However, claims that race is irrelevant are not supported by the facts.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Do we know whether he had a criminal record before shooting his first victim, or was he a "law abiding gun owner" up until that time?

I think it is safe to say he was not a law abiding gun owner before he shot his first victim. His 9mm and .22 handguns had the serial numbers removed. Not legal

Ohh, that's gotta hurt, John.

[Zipp0 1]

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I said the issue is poverty, and the studies I cited back me up 100%.

That's half of what you said. The other being it's not about race.

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As far as the race goes, that's an issue for racists and bigots, so I'll leave it to them.

Like I said, it's taboo.

The incidence of gun related fatalities for blacks is nearly three times higher than for whites.

The incidence of gun related non-fatalities for blacks is nine times higher than for whites.

Granted this is a complex issue and not as black and white as some try to make it. However, claims that race is irrelevant are not supported by the facts.

If all of those blacks were rich, the crime rate would be near 0. That's why the issue is NOT race, but income inequality.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[NCclimber 0]

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If all of those blacks were rich, the crime rate would be near 0. That's why the issue is NOT race, but income inequality.

Oh

Okay.

[rehmwa 2]

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The incidence of gun related fatalities [black vs white]....... However, claims that race is irrelevant are not supported by the facts.

facts? it has nothing to do with facts, rather it's a question of what is causative vs correlated...

Zippo's crack implying people who question this as "racists and bigots" aside as just a dirty debating trick typical to lefty discussion, it makes more sense to note the relationship to poverty instead of race for violent crime - poverty certainly leads to ignorance and desperation - don't you think? I'd also say it would relate to environment with those in high population density environs also much more likely to resort to violence due to political policy in those areas, general entitlement attitude, crappy education, anonymity, etc in high population density areas. But that might not be an independent variable at all to poverty.

Your notes are also very strongly related to poverty, so I doubt race is causative, rather just correlative. { I'll let those that want to take income envy and force it into race issues as racist arguments}

and race isn't white/black only. why do people keep ignoring the other races - yellow, green, dark and light brown, red, pink, [purple, blue, orange and polka dotted]?

white/black - I don't know why people keep comparing albino's to burn victims, but fine.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Zipp0 1]

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If all of those blacks were rich, the crime rate would be near 0. That's why the issue is NOT race, but income inequality.

Oh

Okay.

Well, it seems that you are saying that blacks have some kind of genetic pre-disposition to be criminals. Is that what you are saying? Because if it is, I'd like you to show me THAT study.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.