The poverty/terror myth

[Darius11 12]

I think dyeing for your cause is considered very honorable in that region much like Japan during WWII.

As for Suicide bombers in Iraq. I believe some might be done as a retaliation to kick the invading troops out, other (and most I would say) are done simply to cause disruptions and destroy the chance for a democracy.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[LouDiamond 1]

Let me just say this, and I am not addressing anyone in particular,just the article. The title is misleading and as with most journalistic pieces, probably has an agenda since it only focuses on suicide bombers.

First off, defining Terrorism is not an easy task, there are over 100 definitions for it with in all the oganizations and agencies in the US alone. However, one thing that is true and can be verified historically is that the overall population of a terrorist organization is comprised of tiers or classes of people from the society. Think of it as a pyramid if you will.

At the top you will find the leaders, who are often very intelligent, affluent people within their society(Dr.s, lawyers, professors). They are usually the ones espousing an idealogy to the masses. The middle layer of the pryamid is made up of what we call the middle class of society.This can be the breeding ground as it often involves college and university aged people or those who feel they have been wronged by their current administration. The base of the pyramid, which is by far the largest part of the pyramid is made up of poor and uneducated people as they are the easiest to influence. These are usually the people found in agrarian based societies, which are usually located in remote areas. Subsequently, this is where the middle and top tiers of the pyramid go to recruit and establish their "army" of freedom fighters. It is also where most of the small skirmishes with the administration begin and continue through out the defined steps of a revolutionary movement,even after they have taken the next step and are operating in the urban areas. The remote areas are where they will always have a recruitment pool as well as a logistical base that allows them to operate out of.

I have personally fought against terrorist organizations in most of Central and South America as well as SouthWest Asia and the above mentioned simplistic template remains true to form. The article wants the reader to believe that there is no correlation between economic status and terrorism when there are centuries of proof and studies of terrorist organizations to prove otherwise. To anyone who even remotely follows terrorism in the world, the article is akin to a troll as it is a partial truth and is not indicitive of the whole. It attempts to do this by citing a tactic (suicide bombing) that is used predominately in only one region of the world and attach it to people other than the poor, which is not the truth. While there have been suicide bombers who clearly do not fall into the poor category, they are by far not the norm. There are several documentaries out there that address the suicide bomber and over 3/4 of them come from poor, disaffected areas within their society. When examined closesly, it is easy to see there are decades of examples to support this. If anything, the article is addressing a trend within a norm. This can be easily examined on a case by case basis as to why but it usually boils down to that person having access or placement to the target that an outsider does not have or as it is in most of these societies, a person from a poor or different economic background would easily be spotted or draw suspicion by the local authorities.

So the question asked is how can someone who is smart,middle ,upper class concieve of being a suicide bomber? Same way a poor person can be influenced, it just takes a different approach but in the end it all boils down to brain washing or indoctrination. It's no different than people who are convinced to join a cult, sell all their belongings and give all their money to some guy proclaiming to be the Messiah. Ok, you say but why are more of them coming out of these levels of society? Simply put, this group of people are starting to feel disaffected with their society just like the little guy and like him, feels that they can do something about it.

So while terrorism knows no economical class, it does build its foundation on those who are economically/culturally/ racially challenged by their society and or administration.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Royd 0]

Quote

Islam is about justice, and giving you life to achieve justice or some form of justice is considered honorable in many cultures.

Killing dozens of women and children in a market just to make a statement is justice? Someone needs to rethink their religion.

[juanesky 0]

That is what I don't get.
You don't hear many muslims complain about the hijacking of their religion, and how things always ends up somehow being related to the Israel-palestine conflict in this area. Not to mention how bad the arab coalition has tried and failed to exterminate a nation for close to 60 years, and unable to provide their palestinian brothers with a safe heaven, and effective support to become strong, and a productive nation.


But you know, it will always be America's and Israel's fault no matter what.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Royd 0]

Quote

That is what I don't get.
You don't hear many muslims complain about the hijacking of their religion, and how things always ends up somehow being related to the Israel-palestine conflict in this area. Not to mention how bad the arab coalition has tried and failed to exterminate a nation for close to 60 years, and unable to provide their palestinian brothers with a safe heaven, and effective support to become strong, and a productive nation.

Hate and revenge is so ingrained in these people that even if you gave them all of the tools to live a peaceful, productive life, they would still find cause to kill someone who doesn't think exactly like them.

Obviously, Mohammed didn't read Jesus' message about forgiveness.

[Darius11 12]

54000+ Inocent Iraqis dead doesn’t sound like freedom or mission accomplished does it?

I love how we who have precision guided bombs and stealth air planes to deliver the precision guided bombs that have + or – range of 6 feet from target see no issue with killing 54K people because we say oh ooops sorry.

But the people fighting back who have no other means to fight back other then a suicide bomb there the scum. I think you need to reevaluate your way of thinking. Your tolerance for inocent casualties tends to change depending on you is doing the killing.
We traveled how many thousands of miles to go to someone else’s back yard to start a fight?
It would be great to look in the mirror without any goggles on

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

Quote

Quote

That is what I don't get.
You don't hear many muslims complain about the hijacking of their religion, and how things always ends up somehow being related to the Israel-palestine conflict in this area. Not to mention how bad the arab coalition has tried and failed to exterminate a nation for close to 60 years, and unable to provide their palestinian brothers with a safe heaven, and effective support to become strong, and a productive nation.

Hate and revenge is so ingrained in these people that even if you gave them all of the tools to live a peaceful, productive life, they would still find cause to kill someone who doesn't think exactly like them.

Obviously, Mohammed didn't read Jesus' message about forgiveness.

I believe most Christians missed the point as well.

How many bases do we have out side of our country?

How many times have we had our warships in someone else’s backyard with are Cruz missiles pointed at their land?

How many wars have we started in the last 100 years?


Now same questions about Iran, Iraq fuck all of the Middle East……… WOW you should all read your bible again, maybe this time some of the teachings will sink in.
.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Andy9o8 0]

Your points are well-taken, but -- aside from using suicide bombs as a guerilla tactic against military forces -- how does that answer the question about where the justice is in using suicide bombs against primarily civilian targets in Iraq, like Iraqi markets filled with women and children?

[Darius11 12]

Quote

That is what I don't get.
You don't hear many muslims complain about the hijacking of their religion, and how things always ends up somehow being related to the Israel-palestine conflict in this area. Not to mention how bad the arab coalition has tried and failed to exterminate a nation for close to 60 years, and unable to provide their palestinian brothers with a safe heaven, and effective support to become strong, and a productive nation.


But you know, it will always be America's and Israel's fault no matter what.

I will give you one example and you’ll get my point hopefully.


There was no link between Iraq and OBL none ZERO. Iraq was not a haven for terrorist before we invaded.
Now look. We always think we know the solution to all of the world’s problems but most of the time we should just mind our own business just like in Iraq. We didn’t listen to any of the expert’s cause we knew better. Yea right
That mentality is what always gets us and the rest of the world in to trouble.

Unfortunately it is not even something pure like our principles, or spreading freedom. I mean if we had any ethics that we claim to have how could we have supported such horrible people as Sadam and OBL how?

Because the Enemy of my Enemy is my friend no matter what scumbag he or she is. Yep that has been working great for us hasn’t it?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

Quote

Your points are well-taken, but -- aside from using suicide bombs as a guerilla tactic against military forces -- how does that answer the question about where the justice is in using suicide bombs against primarily civilian targets in Iraq, like Iraqi markets filled with women and children?

Please understand that killing inocent civilians is not justified by anyone.
But if we are going to sit there and judge and call people savages or barbaric we should judge our selves first.
As for justice it’s not justice it about understanding it. They have no options. That’s the only way they can fight back.

How do we justify killing 54000K civilians in Iraq? Does using sophisticated weapons justify the murders?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Andy9o8 0]

Sorry, but repeatedly in this thread you've evaded a direct answer to the question of how suicide bombing and mass killings of civilians in Iraq is justified. You either slide to one side by impliedly discussing the Palestinians, or you slide to the other side by saying things like "They have no options. That’s the only way they can fight back. " - which may be true when the tactic is used against MILITARY forces, but is no answer to why it is used against CIVILIAN targets like markets crowded with women doing their food shopping. That deserves an answer in and of itself, not just saying, "well, the American tactics are just as bad."

[beowulf 1]

Quote

As for justice it’s not justice it about understanding it. They have no options. That’s the only way they can fight back.

How is that understandable? That doesn't hurt the US. Most of the fighting in Iraq seems to be between the different factions trying to gain control over the country.

If the only option they can see is fighting then that is all they will ever do. There are more options. They just don't see them or want them.

[Royd 0]

Quote

54000+ Inocent Iraqis dead doesn’t sound like freedom or mission accomplished does it?

How many of those innocents were killed by those who have hijacked the peace loving religion of Islam?[sarcasm intended]

How many of our soldiers have been killed unnecessarily, because the PC crowd just loves to see us walking on eggshells?

IMO we should have gone for the checkmate during the first Gulf War.

How many innocents per year got sent to an early grave because they showed dissent toward SH?

Now a question that is without derision.

Do you think that the doctrines of Islam are so ingrained in these people, that they would choose not to live free, even if they had a full opportunity?

If so, then yes, we are wasting our time and money trying to give them a better vision.

[SkyDekker 1,141]

Quote

Do you think that the doctrines of Islam are so ingrained in these people, that they would choose not to live free, even if they had a full opportunity?

If so, then yes, we are wasting our time and money trying to give them a better vision.

Thius reeks of you implying the christian way of life is better than the muyslim way of life?

Do you believe that, or is that not what you were trying to get across?

[Darius11 12]

I believe I have answered you. When I said the killing of ANY inocent civilians is not justifiable.
I mentioned that they have no other option to fight back in an effort to help other understand understand why it is being done and that tactic is being used.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[beowulf 1]

Quote

I believe I have answered you. When I said the killing of ANY inocent civilians is not justifiable.
I mentioned that they have no other option to fight back in an effort to help other understand understand why it is being done and that tactic is being used.

This implies that you condone their tactics. Just because they think it is the only doesn't mean that it is their only option.

[Darius11 12]

Quote

Quote

As for justice it’s not justice it about understanding it. They have no options. That’s the only way they can fight back.

How is that understandable? That doesn't hurt the US. Most of the fighting in Iraq seems to be between the different factions trying to gain control over the country.

If the only option they can see is fighting then that is all they will ever do. There are more options. They just don't see them or want them.

Sorry that is my wording.
I believe the options they are given are give up what you believe in, die, retreat, or fight back.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[beowulf 1]

That is a pretty limited view and leads to nothing but death and war.

[miked10270 0]

Quote

Sorry, but repeatedly in this thread you've evaded a direct answer to the question of how suicide bombing and mass killings of civilians in Iraq is justified...

I think Darius has answered this, but, if I may contribute a political saying by Henry kissinger (referring I think to Viet Minh atrocities to gain control of villages and Soviet - Cuban backed civil unrest in Latin America):

"Fishing is best done in Troubled Waters"

In effect, a "comfortable" population WON'T embrace a radical political solution.

As such, in order to get Iraq to accept radical Islam after it's many years of secularism, it's necessary for the people to be uncomfortable and suffering... If they aren't so, then it's in the interests of the radical to make them so.

Hence the attempt to disrupt the rule of law and normal life to the extent that the protagonists solution will be accepted, even welcomed if it stops the unrest.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[billvon 2,427]

> How many innocents per year got sent to an early grave because
>they showed dissent toward SH?

Probably about the same number of innocents who got sent to an early grave because they were dumb enough to live in a building that put itself under an american bomb.

[Darius11 12]

Quote

How many of those innocents were killed by those who have hijacked the peace loving religion of Islam?[sarcasm intended]

How many of our soldiers have been killed unnecessarily, because the PC crowd just loves to see us walking on eggshells?

IMO we should have gone for the checkmate during the first Gulf War.

How many innocents per year got sent to an early grave because they showed dissent toward SH?

I don't know the answer to that I believe you don't either, but there is one thing we can be sure of. They would all be alive if we had not decided to invade Iraq. Can you deny that?

Quote

Do you think that the doctrines of Islam are so ingrained in these people, that they would choose not to live free, even if they had a full opportunity?

That’s a great question. I believe yes for some and no for others. I am not trying to be an ass that’s the best way I can answer that question.

The Middle East has not had the same freedoms that we have in the west, therefore the people are less tolerant of things that are different. With freedom comes a cretin desensitization to what was once view as wrong. Imagine the reaction of US citizens if South Park was on TV in the 50s.

Also what we view as a crazy Christian (or simply someone who follows the rules of the bible, or there religious book) in the US, are much more common in the Middle East. Imagine the US in the 50s or 40s that in way is a good doorway in to what people see as wrong or right in the Middle East.
If the majority wants a religious state that follows there religious book is that not a democracy? even if it does not offer the same rights we enjoy?

I also know that if given the choice of our culture(western), and a religious one many (not me) would rather have the religious one. The thought of there kids watching Will and Grace on TV terrifies people, just like it would have 30-40 years ago in the US.
Some people simply do not want the same freedoms we have.


Please understand that in no way am I trying to say that everyone feels that way, many dream, of the US lifestyle, but at the same time many don't. Who are we to say who is right. We do not live in a perfect state ourselves

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Royd 0]

Do you think that the doctrines of Islam are so ingrained in these people, that they would choose not to live free, even if they had a full opportunity?

If so, then yes, we are wasting our time and money trying to give them a better vision.

Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Thius reeks of you implying the christian way of life is better than the muyslim way of life?

No. Just a life where you are not told that you have to go to the mosque five times a day, and if you are a woman, you can't go into the street without being completely covered, or else get punished.

[SkyDekker 1,141]

Quote

No. Just a life where you are not told that you have to go to the mosque five times a day, and if you are a woman, you can't go into the street without being completely covered, or else get punished.

There are many christian religions/doctrines/communities like that as well. The issue is not Islam.

(If you think it is, try going to a protestant area of Northern Ireland and start explaining to people that the Roman Catholic faith is better, or vice versa)

When religion is misused the fault is not the religion itself, but those using it.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

When religion is misused the fault is not the religion itself, but those using it.

that's well said and should be understood by the atheists as well

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[juanesky 0]

Quote

Quote

That is what I don't get.
You don't hear many muslims complain about the hijacking of their religion, and how things always ends up somehow being related to the Israel-palestine conflict in this area. Not to mention how bad the arab coalition has tried and failed to exterminate a nation for close to 60 years, and unable to provide their palestinian brothers with a safe heaven, and effective support to become strong, and a productive nation.


But you know, it will always be America's and Israel's fault no matter what.

I will give you one example and you’ll get my point hopefully.


There was no link between Iraq and OBL none ZERO. Iraq was not a haven for terrorist before we invaded.
Now look. We always think we know the solution to all of the world’s problems but most of the time we should just mind our own business just like in Iraq. We didn’t listen to any of the expert’s cause we knew better. Yea right
That mentality is what always gets us and the rest of the world in to trouble.

Unfortunately it is not even something pure like our principles, or spreading freedom. I mean if we had any ethics that we claim to have how could we have supported such horrible people as Sadam and OBL how?

Because the Enemy of my Enemy is my friend no matter what scumbag he or she is. Yep that has been working great for us hasn’t it?

What did I say in my post that has to do with Iraq? Could you at least try to counter the points I actually made?

Your post is well, not in the vecinity of what I was talking about. As always, you take the opportunity of talking about the "we" (meaning the US), are no good, when it refers to that region of the world.

But you insist in negating the hijacking of the Islamic religion, on the side of the Shia, by Iranian extremists, and on the side of the Sunnis, by OBL and the likes, and in the end, every single conflict in the middle east is, has always been, and always will be influenced to the Israel Palestinian issue.

You will always take the side of the Palestinians, and condone their tactics of killing innocents, while condemning Americans or Israel for killing innocents, and Innocent to you appears also to be, even those who are fighting against us in Iraq, or elsewhere, or planting a bomb in a free market.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon