steveorino 7 #376 March 2, 2007 QuoteTaking action to deal with your own problems inlife is far superior to wishing them away which is what prayer amounts to. There are many who would disagree that prayer is simply "wishing them away" In fact, that is a very childlike belief. Do not always be so condesending about things (spirituality) that you have no connection with. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #377 March 2, 2007 I dont see the difference. I sometimes wish I would win the lottery ( it might help if I actually bought some tickets) Im sure religious people pray they would win the lottery, how are these (or any other case)different? Im sure you know I was once religious, i used to prey very hard, so i dont see how you can say I have no connection. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #378 March 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteTaking action to deal with your own problems inlife is far superior to wishing them away which is what prayer amounts to. There are many who would disagree that prayer is simply "wishing them away" In fact, that is a very childlike belief. Do not always be so condesending about things (spirituality) that you have no connection with. It's really hard to not be condescending about prayer. As far as I can tell it really does amount to wishfull thinking. Every time someone tells me they prayed for something and it happened I want to ask how they know that if they didn't pray it wouldn't have happened anyway. How can any one just trust in prayer? Prayers seem to be answered in random. You don't ever hear about all the prayers that go unanswered. How do you know that the prayers that are answered are actually answered and not coincedence? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #379 March 2, 2007 To say prayer is simply wishing is either condscending or woefully uniformed of what prayer is. Your example indicates to me the latter That doesn't surprise me as most Christians are clueless because of so much bad teaching, it is no wonder an atheist doesn't get it. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #380 March 2, 2007 QuoteYou don't ever hear about all the prayers that go unanswered There are no "unanswered" prayers unless you assume every prayer must be answered with a "yes." "Some of God's greatest gifts are unaswered prayers" -- the great theologion, Garth Brooks steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #381 March 2, 2007 I heard a preacher once say all prayers are answered its just that the answer isnt alway yes. he really didnt see this as absurd.Its like saying I can predict the outcome of a coin toss but I onlly get it right half the time. Its amazing the systems of self deception that people can build. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #382 March 2, 2007 okay then what is your definition of prayer? mine understanding of prayer is that it is the method of talking to god. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #383 March 2, 2007 QuoteI heard a preacher once say all prayers are answered its just that the answer isnt alway yes. he really didnt see this as absurd.Its like saying I can predict the outcome of a coin toss but I onlly get it right half the time. Its amazing the systems of self deception that people can build. So you expect every prayer to be answered with a yes? A good father doesn't do that. I had to delay or deny more request than answer positively when raising 4 kids. They thank me now as they are in their 20s steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #384 March 2, 2007 Quoteokay then what is your definition of prayer? mine understanding of prayer is that it is the method of talking to god. Mine too in that Tevye (Fiddler on the Roof) sort of way. But it is more than that. Prayer should be a process that begins to open your mind up to the will of God as well. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2shay 0 #385 March 2, 2007 totally agree w all youve said. I would like to know if anyone, especially those who doubt god or don't believe could you tell me if you believe in miracles? IF not can you explain what a miracle is and why or how it happens? Lastly, has God ever hurt anyone? If so can you explain? I do believe but since this thread is red hot I would like to see what others have to share Thanks all, and what ever works for any of you keep doin thatdon't try your bullshit with me!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #386 March 2, 2007 QuoteLastly, has God ever hurt anyone? If so can you explain? pandora's box is now open ... steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #387 March 2, 2007 Only there is no response but what you look for around you and interpret. The real question is how do you know your actually talking to God and not just wasting time? If you look hard enough you will find what you are looking for. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2shay 0 #388 March 2, 2007 I gotta a good acronym the other day P.U.S.H. Pray Until Something Happens and your right pandoras is open now, I had to thoughdon't try your bullshit with me!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #389 March 2, 2007 No a good father would not do that but at least we can tell the father is there and reacting either positivley, negativley or indifferently. How could you tell that with prayer? lets take an example. On 9/11 muslim terrorists im sure prayed their mission would be succesful, its likley the passengers on the plane also prayed they would survive. how can you tell whether the prayers of the terrorists were answered with a yes, the prayers of the passengers were answered with a no or whether they prayers were irrelevant? this comes back to falsifiability. If a prayer leads to a postivie outcome the religious assumes that prayer is really working, if a negative outcome occurs rather than coming to the opposite conclusion one comes to the same conclusion that prayer is real but this time god answered no. the fact that people come to the same conclusion irrespective of the outcome should show that prayer is a delusion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #390 March 2, 2007 QuoteI gotta a good acronym the other day P.U.S.H. Pray Until Something Happens and your right pandoras is open now, I had to though Try that while skydiving see how that works for you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #391 March 2, 2007 No i dont believ in miracles, those who claim miaculous events are eithher decieivng othhers or more likely decieving themselves. James Randi has a $1m prize for anyone who can show evidence of a supernatural event, so far no one has ever won that prize. has god every hurt anyone? Well i dont believe in god so my answer to that is no. but I do believe that belief in god has hurt people. One only has to look at the huge amounts of religious conflicts in the world both now and in the past to accept that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #392 March 2, 2007 gr8 point. heres the ultimate test between science and religion. We both jump, one of us relies on man made technology ie a parachute the other relies on prayer, who do you think will survive? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,257 #393 March 2, 2007 QuoteI would like to know if anyone, especially those who doubt god or don't believe could you tell me if you believe in miracles? No. QuoteIF not can you explain what a miracle is and why or how it happens? They don't (at least not in the supernatural sense). QuoteLastly, has God ever hurt anyone? How many people were hurt by unicorns last year?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2shay 0 #394 March 2, 2007 loldon't try your bullshit with me!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #395 March 2, 2007 QuoteOnly there is no response but what you look for around you and interpret. The real question is how do you know your actually talking to God and not just wasting time? If you look hard enough you will find what you are looking for. I'd say if you are looking at prayer as a proof of God you will be dissappointed and confused. If you view prayer as communication between you and God then you can begin to learn more about his plan for you. When I don't get what I ask for in a prayer, I don't ask "Why?" I ask, "What do you want me to learn from this?" steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #396 March 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteOnly there is no response but what you look for around you and interpret. The real question is how do you know your actually talking to God and not just wasting time? If you look hard enough you will find what you are looking for. I'd say if you are looking at prayer as a proof of God you will be dissappointed and confused. If you view prayer as communication between you and God then you can begin to learn more about his plan for you. When I don't get what I ask for in a prayer, I don't ask "Why?" I ask, "What do you want me to learn from this?" I wasn't referring necessarily to actually getting something from god, but how do you know that your prayer is actually being heard? How do you know there is actual communication? For me I always felt silly praying. I never felt any presence or that God was listening to me. When I was 14 I told my mother that I was never going to get baptized and that I would never be a Jehovah's Witness. She promptly told me to pack up and leave and she didn't care where. She would gladly trade me for her delusions of God. She tends to see things like that as a test of her faith. I see life as 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #397 March 2, 2007 QuoteNo a good father would not do that but at least we can tell the father is there and reacting either positivley, negativley or indifferently. How could you tell that with prayer? lets take an example. On 9/11 muslim terrorists im sure prayed their mission would be succesful, its likley the passengers on the plane also prayed they would survive. how can you tell whether the prayers of the terrorists were answered with a yes, the prayers of the passengers were answered with a no or whether they prayers were irrelevant? this comes back to falsifiability. If a prayer leads to a postivie outcome the religious assumes that prayer is really working, if a negative outcome occurs rather than coming to the opposite conclusion one comes to the same conclusion that prayer is real but this time god answered no. the fact that people come to the same conclusion irrespective of the outcome should show that prayer is a delusion. It has been my experince that God seldom overides a person's free will. As a result we fall victim to evil men more than not. In those cases were God does supernaturally intervene, we have a miracle. If you really study the ministry of Christ you should not be amazed at his miracles (He claimed to be God) rather you should be amazed how many miracles he did not perform. In most cases he only performed a miracle to validate his message (Once he forgave a lame man his sins. When questioned on what authority he had to do that he replied, "Which is harder to do, forgive sins or make this man walk? So that you may know the Son of man has the authority to forgive sins, I say to this man, 'take up your mat and walk!' Believing that all prayers will be answered according to our will is a fallacy that will cause confusion. I pray a lot. At times it is conversation, other times it is a plea. I have yet to sustain any tragedy in my life that God has not equipped me for. When my parents died many years ago I prayed they would live. Cancer and heart disease took them. Rather than asking God why he didn't heal my mom or dad, I simply asked God what now? How do I turn this pain to a positive? For a few years I did not know, but later in life I became a pastor, and I was more equipped to deal with the hurting. My pastoral ministries class taught all about the right thing to say in a death. But I knew first hand "jesus band-aids" did more harm than good. I knew first hand my presence as a pastor and friend in this trial would mean more than any scripture I could quote. Had I not gone through my trial, I'm not sure I would now that as such a young age (35 is young for pastors) So, by asking What? I learned more than I had would have if I asked Why. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2shay 0 #398 March 2, 2007 the best thing i can say is listen to gods message and not the messangers no matter who they are. Humans will almost always fail each other. If someone holds something against you, there wrong god has already forgiven you. So are they better than god? I dont think so. Does god call down in an all deep voice and say go my son and do this? No, but I have the FAITH that he will help and guide me. God works through people.don't try your bullshit with me!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #399 March 2, 2007 Quotethe best thing i can say is listen to gods message and not the messangers no matter who they are. Humans will almost always fail each other. If someone holds something against you, there wrong god has already forgiven you. So are they better than god? I dont think so. Does god call down in an all deep voice and say go my son and do this? No, but I have the FAITH that he will help and guide me. God works through people. I have never heard anything from god. I have read the bible, but it is just a book like any other. I don't feel whate ever it is you feel. My mother is going to be who she is. I can't do anything about that. That has nothing to do with any god. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2shay 0 #400 March 2, 2007 do some research you will find the opposite of fear is faith But I do hope that what ever you do belive in makes you sincerely happy in life.don't try your bullshit with me!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
