What makes someone do this?

[SkyDekker 1,122]

In incidents like this it is interesting to see how many Americans believe that adding more guns is the answer, while most people from other Western societies believe less guns is the answer.

Maybe there truly is a very distinct societal difference.

(I also wonder if this man would have done the same amount of "damage" in the same amount of time with a knife.)

[NCclimber 0]

Quote

In incidents like this it is interesting to see how many Americans believe that adding more guns is the answer, while most people from other Western societies believe less guns is the answer.

Perhaps you could give us some examples where people (other than a few fringe element types) advocated "adding more guns", in response to similar tragedies.

[shermanator 3]

i think the problem lies in the hormones that they put in the livestock that we eat

CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

[SkyDekker 1,122]

Might be a misunderstanding on my part, but I get the impression many thought that if more guns would have been around (in the hands of good guys as one put it) this would have been stopped earlier and less people would have died.

[Zipp0 1]

Quote

Might be a misunderstanding on my part, but I get the impression many thought that if more guns would have been around (in the hands of good guys as one put it) this would have been stopped earlier and less people would have died.

It would have stopped earlier and less people would have died, assuming the person carrying was a trained, responsible gun owner.

Adding more guns is not always the answer, but the reality in America is that it may be the only answer.

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[NCclimber 0]

Quote

Might be a misunderstanding on my part, but I get the impression many thought that if more guns would have been around (in the hands of good guys as one put it) this would have been stopped earlier and less people would have died.

A snide rant, followed by an equally snide reply, which is then followed by an...



even-tempered,




civil,




clarification of the initial post.

WTF!!!

You're obviously in the wrong forum!





Getting back to that civil reply, I'm guessing part of your irritation has to do with the sentiment of "don't expect us to give up our gun rights" every time one of these shooting sprees happens.

[Buffs303 0]

Quote

6 dead after US shooting spree

What do you think drives someone to do something like this?

Also, it may just be the reporting of these events, but do you think that these tend to happen more in the US than elsewhere - this isn't meant to be an antagonistic question it is just a comment?
If so what is it in the specific US mentality that causes this? Is it something to do with the celebrity culture we live in and people craving some kind of press/media?

Whatever it is, it's fucked up.

This is happening in plenty of places in other forms. Suicide bombings, rapes, murders. A country's culture and laws are not to be questioned over a couple random psychos. Every country has them and none of them are good representations of what the majority of the people believe in who were brought up by the same laws. Some people are just plain bad. Nuff said.

PS. I enjoy my right to own guns.

Swoop and Poop....my favorite things to photograph

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

But then the cops probably would have rushed in and shot me......

It's for your own good. Once your gun gets a taste of blood, he'll take over your brain and go out for more killing.

The alternative is a bunch of left wing law enforced counseling sessions (at government expense) where you are required to find your feminine side, hand over your wallet, and renounce yourself as evil for shooting the helpless criminal.

your choice, die now at the hands of the regular police, or die a little bit more each day at the hands of the sensitivity police

it's good to have a choice

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SkyDekker 1,122]

Quote

Getting back to that civil reply, I'm guessing part of your irritation has to do with the sentiment of "don't expect us to give up our gun rights" every time one of these shooting sprees happens.

Actually there was no irritation, nor was the original comment meant to be a "snide rant", just find the two perspectives interesting.

Personally I believe that limiting the access to guns works better than adding more guns. Though, I have no interest in taking away gun rights from Americans, it just doesn't affect me one way or the other.

I just think that the old adage of "an armed society is a polite society" on which this is based is seriously flawed. It is almost like communism, looks great on paper, but just doesn't work.

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Quote

In incidents like this it is interesting to see how many Americans believe that adding more guns is the answer, while most people from other Western societies believe less guns is the answer.

Perhaps you could give us some examples where people (other than a few fringe element types) advocated "adding more guns", in response to similar tragedies.

"There is a gun problem, and we simply disagree on the remedy. The solution you are advocating has been proven time and again to fail. Those of us who favor gun rights believe that a solution is to put guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens. The bad will always be able to get guns. Had on teacher been able to timely get to a gun, how many lives would have been saved at Columbine?", Lawrocket, this forum, July 30 2004.

Sorry, Lawrocket, you are a "fringe element type".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[NCclimber 0]

Well played.

[Butters 0]

Ok. I have heard the ban guns argument over and over again. Can someone please tell me how you would go about doing this considering the shear amount of illegal guns already in the USA. (Not to mention the fact that we can not stop the flow of illegal immigrants or drugs into this country becasue of the size of the borders, how are we suppose to stop the flow of illegal guns?) Just wondering.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Can someone please tell me how you would go about doing this? Just wondering.

Simple -

Invoke a law saying so.
Maybe add a few taxes just to be petty.

The rest is just a bunch of minor little administrative details that alarmist don't need to worry their little heads over. (things like rounding up the guns - both illegal, and the previously legal but now illegal, choking off both foreign and black market supply, shutting down all the little gun repair shops and the major domestic gun manufacturers, dealing with those left jobless, etc - little things, simple things.)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Ok. I have heard the ban guns argument over and over again. Can someone please tell me how you would go about doing this considering the shear amount of illegal guns already in the USA. (Not to mention the fact that we can not stop the flow of illegal immigrants or drugs into this country becasue of the size of the borders, how are we suppose to stop the flow of illegal guns?) Just wondering.

The solution isn't more gun laws. It's fewer, better, more uniform, and better enforced laws.

All the while the Supremes remain ambiguous about the meaning of the 2nd amendment, gun-o-philes will oppose any attempts at regulation, no matter how sensible, for fear it is the camel's nose under the tent leading to eventual confiscation.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[pfloyd 0]

I really hope some scapegoat finger pointing parent doesn't try to blame this on video games. You knew that was coming. I feel that if every person in the mall at the time had a hand gun on them, that someone could have killed the shooter after the 1st shot. But its not a perfect society we live in is it? Shit happens, people snap and do VERY stupid things.

My drinking team has a skydiving problem

[Butters 0]

Quote

I really hope some scapegoat finger pointing parent doesn't try to blame this on video games. You knew that was coming. I feel that if every person in the mall at the time had a hand gun on them, that someone could have killed the shooter after the 1st shot. But its not a perfect society we live in is it? Shit happens, people snap and do VERY stupid things.

What if multiple people are carrying guns and confuse each other with the original shooter and shoot each other? (Kind of like those vomiting videos where one person vomits which causes another person to vomit which causes another person to vomit ....)

PS: There are multiple video games where you shoot people in a mall.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

I believe there is a statistic that states that there are more guns per people in Canada then the US. However in Canada they don’t have nearly the same amount of crime.
I don’t think it is the laws. I really don’t believe that the ease of getting a gun has anything to do with the number of crimes committed. I believe it might be more of a culture thing.

Ding ding ding! Darius wins the prize for getting it right.

Most of these guys have mental problems to begin with. Their parents don't pay any attention to them. They're outcasts at school. Bullies pick on them and nobody cares. They're on prescription drugs to control their moods. And so on... We've seen such a "profile" over and over again in these teenage shooting sprees.

Maybe we should quit medicating them into zombies. Maybe parents should spend productive time with their kids. Maybe school administrators should crack down on bullies. Blah blah blah.

Human nature hasn't changed, and all of these problems also existed 25 years ago - but none of those kids went off shooting people. So what's changed since? Our culture. Fatherless families, violence-filled video games and movies, the prescription drug culture where there's a pill to solve every problem.

Bring back "Leave it to Beaver" and "Father Knows Best" families, with caring parents and communities, natural play activities, and school administrators who aren't handcuffed by policies, and we can solve this problem.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

So what's changed since? Our culture. Fatherless families, violence-filled video games and movies, the prescription drug culture where there's a pill to solve every problem.

Also, the anti-gun nuts have created another: Guns used to be normal to the culture and part of everyday life as a simple tool and symbol of craftsmanship and responsibility. Shoot with a handgun held sideways? Your dad smacks you upside the head and reinstructs you how to hold a gun.

Now, half the populace is unreasonably scared of them. The outcasts and psychotics are attracted to handguns because they are now "taboo" and "evil". TV and movies shows punks holding a gun sideways because it's not stupid, it's supposed to look ganglike. Dad's don't teach kids gun safety, now you have to go get some stranger to mass teach a bunch of idiots so they can get permits.

It's amazing how much indoctrination the kids get in such a short time. I was very proud to see my daughter shoot targets with my old .22 this last Nov and even prouder to see her handling the gun correctly and with regard for those around her. It took a lot of effort to get past some of the falsehoods she was told in the city gradeschools (lies for her own good, apparently).

The culture certainly has changed for the worse in this area. the self fulfilling prophecy of the paranoid and unthinking gun-phobes. and a bit of crappy hollywood stereotyping.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Yes, but Canada has gun control rather than the Right to bear arms by default. As such, getting a gun in Canada is rather more involved (the need to show a legitimate reason) than in the US...

This has not prevented Canada from being the victim of a number of mass shooting incidents...

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

This has not prevented Canada from being the victim of a number of mass shooting incidents...

certainly it has -

if you assume that everyone who owns a guns will go on a mass killiing spree (automatic assumption by anti gun nuts - due to the psychotropic chemicals found in gun oil and wood finish used in gun maintenance), then we'd see about one mass shooting incident per day in Canada. Canada has had less than ten.

Thus saving Canada AT LEAST 355 mass shooting incidents in 2006 alone!!!!

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

In incidents like this it is interesting to see how many Americans believe that adding more guns is the answer, while most people from other Western societies believe less guns is the answer.

What stops mass killers armed with guns?
Good guys armed with guns.

In your way of thinking, only the cops are allowed to be good guys with guns. In the U.S., there are plenty of other good guys with guns who aren't cops, who can take decisive action when necessary. I see no reason to limit the number of good guys capable of stopping mass murderers.

Why do these killers often choose schools? Because good guys with guns are forbidden there, and the killers know they'll be free to wreak havoc without anyone to oppose them.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

The solution isn't more gun laws. It's fewer, better, more uniform, and better enforced laws.

What change would you make that you think would stop a random nut from getting a gun and going on a shooting spree?

[vortexring 0]

Quote

Quote

I believe there is a statistic that states that there are more guns per people in Canada then the US. However in Canada they don’t have nearly the same amount of crime.
I don’t think it is the laws. I really don’t believe that the ease of getting a gun has anything to do with the number of crimes committed. I believe it might be more of a culture thing.

Ding ding ding! Darius wins the prize for getting it right.

Most of these guys have mental problems to begin with. Their parents don't pay any attention to them. They're outcasts at school. Bullies pick on them and nobody cares. They're on prescription drugs to control their moods. And so on... We've seen such a "profile" over and over again in these teenage shooting sprees.

Maybe we should quit medicating them into zombies. Maybe parents should spend productive time with their kids. Maybe school administrators should crack down on bullies. Blah blah blah.

Human nature hasn't changed, and all of these problems also existed 25 years ago - but none of those kids went off shooting people. So what's changed since? Our culture. Fatherless families, violence-filled video games and movies, the prescription drug culture where there's a pill to solve every problem.

Bring back "Leave it to Beaver" and "Father Knows Best" families, with caring parents and communities, natural play activities, and school administrators who aren't handcuffed by policies, and we can solve this problem.

What a surprise. I never thought I'd see the day - I completely agree with one of your posts John.

You feeling okay?
Edit: I think a large area of motivation for such people is revenge on the society or people they feel are the fault of their alienation. On smaller, lesser extreme examples, you can observe this behaviour in the torture of small animals by teenagers to even playground bullying. Making others feel worse to make yourself feel better.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[SkyDekker 1,122]

Quote

What stops mass killers armed with guns?
Good guys armed with guns.

Like I said, that is one of the ways of looking at it.

Many other societies seem to think that making it difficult for potential mass killers to obtain a gun is the alternative. At first glance it would also seem that those same societies suffer from far less incidents of mass murderes going on shooting sprees. (Yes, I know it still happens from time to time)

[Newbie 0]

Quote

6 dead after US shooting spree

What do you think drives someone to do something like this?

Also, it may just be the reporting of these events, but do you think that these tend to happen more in the US than elsewhere - this isn't meant to be an antagonistic question it is just a comment?
If so what is it in the specific US mentality that causes this? Is it something to do with the celebrity culture we live in and people craving some kind of press/media?

Whatever it is, it's fucked up.

For all of the good America brings (freedom of speech, ability to start with nothing and make it big through sheer hard work and determination, contributions to industry etc), there is a flip side.

No other nation is as obsessed with the have-it-now, materialistic, money focused way of life. Don't have good teeth, hair and a job? You are a nobody. Don't have a nice house and 2 cars minimum? You haven't made it. Don't play sports at school? You're a geek who is going to get beat on etc etc

Sure i drum to the beat of a fairly broad sterotype here, but there is no denying - America is for the most part a throw away, consumerist based society (for the most part, i stress again). Problems that "these people" go through, who go on shooting spree are dismissed as "those peoples problems" - not anyone elses. "Why should the govt help them out? I didnt need any help" etc. "They are just crazy, and the sooner they go on a shooting spree and have a cop put a bullet in them, the quicker they are removed from the genepool and are less of a harm to me and my loved ones!". Right? Well, i dont believe in that school of though, but its a view that many many people do. It reinforces what i said above - "as long as me and my lot are cool, i don't care" etc. When that view propogates, you get this sort of easy detachment from society, from whats right and wrong and from wanting to harm random people - because at the end of the day, these people feel they cant meet what society has deemed as the "acceptable norm" and the pressure grows on them and manifests itself in wanting to harm those around them who they might perceive as more successful or happy with their lot. It is mental illness, but we have to ask WHY is this mental illness manifesting so often and HOW is it able to be acted on? Access to guns is the tool that allows this sort of random and quick violent outburst - banning guns won't outlaw the actual root cause. We had a guy attack random people with a samurai sword here in the UK some years ago, after the handgun ban. WHen swords are banned, they will go to a store and buy and axe or hammer. Guns just expedite the harm afflicted, but banning them (or attempting to) won't rub out the root cause of these peoples issues.

Don't get me wrong - i do love America, and the UK can be just as bad - 3 murders, 2 with guns, near where i live in London last week etc. I am married to an American and visit family there frequently. But just like ALL societies, there is are things that aren't right with it and i can't see that changing anytime soon, and hence we won't see a respite on random mass shootings like this. It's been happening ever since the breakdown of the nuclear family model and will continue on until which time you readjust societal attitudes and bring it back to being open, caring and inclusive.

Unforuntately i only see things going the other way. All you have to do is look at the young people who aspire to bea the next Paris Hilton or Britney Spears and see we are in a heap of trouble with regard to what and who our society holds in high regard

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts