SuperKat 0 #26 January 5, 2007 QuoteWhy thank you. Bro, I thought that avatar was your actual photo. I thought you were just making a goofy face. It was believable because you have a blue skies and green grass in the background, so I assumed it was taken at your DZ. Oh man. Who is that person in your avatar? What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
porpoishead 5 #27 January 5, 2007 QuoteThat is a disturbing avatar. hell for that matter "pajarito" is quite a disturbing user name, well not disturbing just funny you being a guy and all... incase youre wondering I'm cuban, next time youre around one of your hispanic peeps ask them what the term "pajarito" refers too just so this isnt a total hijack, sin, dont know nothing about it, dont beleive in all that bullshit. [edited to add] its a lovely story anyhow.if you want a friend feed any animal Perry Farrell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #28 January 5, 2007 No. I don't believe in sin. I do believe in mistakes. I believe that under any circumstance, the person will make the best choice they can under those circumstances. Sometimes it's a good choice, sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's a selfish choice, sometimes selfless. Sometimes things turn out well, sometimes not. Regardless, a person will do what they think is the best thing to do. What people see as the "best" choice for them isn't always what society sees as the "right" choice. We then either take the opportunity to learn from those choices, or we ignore the opportunity and continue to make the same mistakes. We all look at the world through our own lens, using our own experiences and abilities to focus. I don't know what choices I would make if I was in someone else's situation. I'm not. It's easy to talk about what you would do or could do, but until you're actually there, you really don't know. Sometimes what I see as the right choice isn't what someone else would see. I try to make good choices because I've seen what happens when I make bad ones. I've seen what happens when other people make bad choices. I try to learn from their mistakes too. So, I don't believe in sin, and I don't believe in evil. I do believe in humanity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
porpoishead 5 #29 January 5, 2007 right on!!!if you want a friend feed any animal Perry Farrell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #30 January 5, 2007 QuoteI'm a theist, not an atheist or agnostic, but let me ask, what do you define as "sin"? If it's fun, or feels good it's probably a sin. Skydiving is probably the closest thing to a sin, that is not a sin, that exists. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yjumpinoz 0 #31 January 5, 2007 I disagree. I believe I need to teach my kid right from wrong regardless of what is socially acceptable. These days many things that are socially acceptable are sin in my opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #32 January 5, 2007 QuoteSo, I don't believe in sin, and I don't believe in evil. I do believe in humanity. So if someone raped and killed your mom, that wouldn't be evil, just a poor choice that you wouldn't have made? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #33 January 5, 2007 Jay: I would say that SIN is anything that is a violation of the truth and morales as defined by Almighty God in His WORD, The King James Bible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #34 January 5, 2007 QuoteQuoteSo, I don't believe in sin, and I don't believe in evil. I do believe in humanity. So if someone raped and killed your mom, that wouldn't be evil, just a poor choice that you wouldn't have made? Moral relativism at its best. Feelings always seem to change when it becomes extreme and personal like you described, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #35 January 5, 2007 QuoteQuoteThat is a disturbing avatar. hell for that matter "pajarito" is quite a disturbing user name, well not disturbing just funny you being a guy and all... incase youre wondering I'm cuban, next time youre around one of your hispanic peeps ask them what the term "pajarito" refers too . www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=931236#931236... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #36 January 5, 2007 QuoteQuoteThat is a disturbing avatar. hell for that matter "pajarito" is quite a disturbing user name, well not disturbing just funny you being a guy and all... incase youre wondering I'm cuban, next time youre around one of your hispanic peeps ask them what the term "pajarito" refers too . Jaybird is a titmouse! steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #37 January 5, 2007 I guess it depends on the true definition of sin... and what your own personal definition is as opposed to what is truely evil.. and what has convieniently been put in place by control freaks in the pulpit trying to control every aspect of the "flocks" life to justify thier exalted positions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #38 January 5, 2007 QuoteQuoteSo, I don't believe in sin, and I don't believe in evil. I do believe in humanity. So if someone raped and killed your mom, that wouldn't be evil, just a poor choice that you wouldn't have made? Evil implies that there is a higher power other than humanity at work. I'd say that kind of action would be awful and horrible and warranting either severe punishment or treatment depending on the situation, but not evil. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #39 January 5, 2007 ok steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #40 January 5, 2007 QuoteEvil implies that there is a higher power other than humanity at work. I'd say that kind of action would be awful and horrible and warranting either severe punishment or treatment depending on the situation, but not evil. so in your vocabulary - you refuse to even come up with a secular definition of either 'evil' or 'sin' sounds a bit frustrating to me and turns this part of the discussion away from substantive talk and into a semantics contest ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #41 January 5, 2007 QuoteQuoteEvil implies that there is a higher power other than humanity at work. I'd say that kind of action would be awful and horrible and warranting either severe punishment or treatment depending on the situation, but not evil. so in your vocabulary - you refuse to even come up with a secular definition of either 'evil' or 'sin' sounds a bit frustrating to me and turns this part of the discussion away from substantive talk and into a semantics contest I don't see it as semantics at all. "Evil" and "sin" are vocabularies of the Christian faith. "right" and "wrong" are from the vocabularies of mankind. Don't you feel it's necessary to establish the language of the topic to as to set the tenor? The Sanatana Dharma, which is indisputably the oldest writing of "Gods Law" mentions nothing of "sin" nor "evil" but rather what is right and wrong with regard to human interaction within society. There are varying degrees of "right" and "wrong," which in my opinion, closely echo the degrees of "sinfulness" of Christians. Where my difference lies, is that I think it's beyond utterly ridiculous to assert that we're born in sin or as a result of sin. That's just a silly scare tactic that can be philosophized or debated to death, and still end up with no valid conclusion. So...no. I don't believe in sin. I believe that humans are capable of horribly wrongful acts towards each other and the earth, however. Is it a sin to dig a hole in the earth for accessing uranium and leaves a wasteland that kills every one that walks through it? Or is it just plain "wrong?" If it is a church that digs the hole, is it still "just plain wrong?" or is it a grievious sin? If the church knows they've dug a hole that kills people and does nothing about it, are they guilty of murder, but if the profits go to "supporting the Lords work," is it no longer a sin but rather just an "oops?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yjumpinoz 0 #42 January 5, 2007 So do you as a parent have to teach a kid to do wrong, or do you have to teach them to do right? It seems that doing wrong comes naturally. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #43 January 5, 2007 QuoteI don't see it as semantics at all. ....(a whole lot of semantics stuff........).... as a non-religious person my opinion is it is 'semantics'. Your comment that sin "closely echos" the more generic concepts of right and wrong is where I find common ground in the discussion. were I an anti-religious person, I'd likely consider it semantics, but pretend it was meaningful in order to try and eliminate the term in an attempt to dilute religious affect in the world by belittling the vocabulary of religion - as you use this thread to state how "it's beyond utterly ridiculous to assert" in context of another's religious beliefs. If I was religious, then maybe it would be something meaningfully different. so there - I sit squarely in the first group the old time atheists were very thought provoking and had good discussions and empathy the modern style atheists really just don't have anything going for them other than really juvenile discussions and gut debates - there's a good discussion on this on today's OpinionJournal.com ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #44 January 5, 2007 I would argue that doing "right" comes just as naturally as doing "wrong." For some however, the absence of "wrong" doesn't equate to the existence of "right." Frans deWaal, a Christian primatologist/zoologist, has written quite a bit about the genetics involved in primates (and humans) that allows for self-sacrifice, survivability, compassion, etc. His opinion as both a Christian and a zoologist, is that morals to a great extent, are genetic. In other words, ethics and morality are biological, not spiritual. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
porpoishead 5 #45 January 5, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteThat is a disturbing avatar. hell for that matter "pajarito" is quite a disturbing user name, well not disturbing just funny you being a guy and all... incase youre wondering I'm cuban, next time youre around one of your hispanic peeps ask them what the term "pajarito" refers too . www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=931236#931236 sick bastards! was even sicker is that it stuck. too funnyif you want a friend feed any animal Perry Farrell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #46 January 5, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteThat is a disturbing avatar. hell for that matter "pajarito" is quite a disturbing user name, well not disturbing just funny you being a guy and all... incase youre wondering I'm cuban, next time youre around one of your hispanic peeps ask them what the term "pajarito" refers too . Jaybird is a titmouse! Little Bird guys... Little Bird... I know.. I know.. I looked up the Cuban bastardization of the word and the way they use it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #47 January 5, 2007 >So...no. I don't believe in sin. "Believing" in sin or not seems like giving more importance to the term than is warranted. Sin, to me, is deliberate violation of a moral code - society's, religious, personal. It's most often used by religions. "Wrong" means more something that's incorrect without bringing volition into it. A man who deliberately cheats on his wife is sinning, but a kid who runs in the street because he doesn't know any better is just plain wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #48 January 5, 2007 A Spanish friend of mine says the she is 'without' sin (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #49 January 5, 2007 >A Spanish friend of mine says the she is 'without' sin . . . I hope she's got a good arm! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #50 January 5, 2007 Quote>So...no. I don't believe in sin. "Believing" in sin or not seems like giving more importance to the term than is warranted. Sin, to me, is deliberate violation of a moral code - society's, religious, personal. It's most often used by religions. "Wrong" means more something that's incorrect without bringing volition into it. A man who deliberately cheats on his wife is sinning, but a kid who runs in the street because he doesn't know any better is just plain wrong. I acquiese to your more articulate expression. I choose not to use the word "sin" only because it's one of those buzzwords most often used by Christians. Were it not for that quality, it would be a common word in my lexicon as well. However, I don't know that "wrong" necessarily discounts or ignores volition or will. It could equally be argued (depending on one's moral code) that cheating on your wife is a crime as much as a wrong. Robbing a bank is definitely a crime, but may not be a sin. Mormons believe in a context of "Lying for the Lord." My experience is that most believers in the bible exercise an identical code at one point or another. Are they sinning? Committing a crime? Or merely behaving in a wrongful fashion? I'd argue all three, but once you toss the religious lexicon in there, it takes on an entirely new direction and value. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
