um?

[caspar 0]

hi everyone,

thought id post what happened to me earlier today and maybe someone will learn from this. i still feel im not as angry as i should be about this.

the plan was to do a 2-way with a friend (i have 150 jumps, he has 30ish and had only done 1 or 2 2-ways before). we meticuosly planned the jump, practiced it all and thought of as many eventuallities as possible.

while hanging outside manifest a guy (who had 60ish jumps since 2003) asked if we could make it a 3-way. i kndly said no as i wanted to keep the jump simple safe and fun for myself and my mate.

anyway, i jump out with my mate, we have an amazing jump, it all goes to plan (including paper rock scissors in freefall ..i lost )

on the ground, we bump into this other guy and he tells us that he jumped out after us and was having a blast watching us in freefall from above, and how he was in two minds as to whether he should come in and join us but thought it best not as we didnt know him ( he said he was "dive to pin" close, in my mind thats fucking close to us.). while describing watching us he made referances to watching us track away, etc.

now, i had no idea this guy was there. he is an army lad (sorry army people but a lot of you guys put me on edge), i smiled made a joke and walked away. im still deciding whether or not to tell the CCI, i dont want some crazy army dude beating on me and the DZ is small, i dont want to piss people off,but of course if someone else gets hurt from something similar by him, i guess its my fault. etc

anyone else think what happened is just a little fucked up? (apart from me not telling the CCI)

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

[jerry81 10]

Something like this gives you every right to tear the guy a new one. However, people tend to get defensive and not listen as well when you approach them that way, so it's wise to try a nicer approach before you get to the ripping.

If he doesn't seem to understand why chasing after a group unannounced is bad, I'd get someone in authority to explain it to him again. Make it friendly if you're really scared of him, but definitely say something.

[jakee 1,257]

If he did it to you he'll do it to other people too. Make sure you let him know that it's out of order.

You say that he watched you track away - does that mean he himself didn't track? With a 30 jump newbie in the mix that could lead to some seriously poor seperation

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[packing_jarrett 0]

dude thats pretty fucked up. Its not your fault that you can't physicaly make him stay out of your dive. Except make him go before you. Dude I'd be pissed.
my .02

Na' Cho' Cheese

[chutem 0]

I would say t depends on how close he was. If he was as close as it sounds like he was and I was with another experienced jumper I would be upset but not pissed. If this happened and I was jumping with a 30ish jump rookie I would then be pissed. What part of I'm keeping it a 2-way for the safety and enjoyment of the newbie do you not understand comes to mind. This whole situation would be different if the guy following you was very experienced, but 60 jumps in 3 years. Sounds like he had NO buisiness being there.
James

[skybytch 259]

He had no business being there and he needs to know exactly why he had no business being there. But you're probably not the best person to tell him.

Talk to the CCI and let him/her handle it.

[caspar 0]

im not scared of the guy, i probably spent about 5 minutes in total talking to him (he's army, that makes me wary-imagining over-reaction).

i doubt i'll be back at the DZ for a while (im turning into a holiday jumper, sadly). i dont like snitching on people, i dont really want to get the CCI involved and im not going to see this guy for a while (dont even know his name) but im sure i'll sort something out.

i just thought id make a point of posting on here as i didnt think anyone could be that dumb as to get in on someone elses jump without even telling them! (especially with a total newb doing one of his first 2ways) so for everyone reading this who's new to the sport, dont be a total pillock, please.

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

[jerry81 10]

People can be that dumb. Unfortunately, sometimes you can't spot it and assume that they'll understand why they can't join you.

I don't know which would piss me off worse- not noticing at all that someone decided to chase after you and having them tell you after the jump or spotting them on exit/in freefall and having to alert the rest of your group to the dumbass and aborting your plan for sake of safety...the latter happened to me once and I was pretty pissed, as you can imagine.

[AFFI 0]

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If he was as close as it sounds like he was and I was with another experienced jumper I would be upset but not pissed. If this happened and I was jumping with a 30ish jump rookie I would then be pissed.
This whole situation would be different if the guy following you was very experienced, but 60 jumps in 3 years. Sounds like he had NO buisiness being there.
James

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Skybytch:
He had no business being there and he needs to know exactly why he had no business being there. But you're probably not the best person to tell him.

Talk to the CCI and let him/her handle it.

Agree with these two postings wholeheartedly...


"Talk to the CCI and let him/her handle it"
This person will better communicate the potential hazards and create a less attacking/defensive environment.

If it was me jumping with a newbie (Coaching) and someone with 60 jumps lurked us without me knowing, ESPECIALLY after telling him/her that this was a 2 way with a newbie, then there would have been a confrontation for sure...

-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[AFFI 0]

Furthermore, if you "let it slide" this person will think their actions were acceptable.

Which they were not...

-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[caspar 0]

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I don't know which would piss me off worse- not noticing at all that someone decided to chase after you and having them tell you after the jump or spotting them on exit/in freefall and having to alert the rest of your group to the dumbass and aborting your plan for sake of safety...the latter happened to me once and I was pretty pissed, as you can imagine.

Tom went low a large propprtion of the jump, different body size , good old AFF arch and i was wearing my FF suit. i had no need to look up at all, why would i on a 2-way? on exit, i was focusing on looking at tom and smiling and just having a good time ( we did a standard linked exit), i didnt see the plane on exit and was totally focused on tom, being the "experienced "guy on the jump.

when he told me, i was more dumbfounded than pissed off. as i walked away i started to get angry. it was the end of the day and i left the DZ very soon after.

im heading out to go party now, but i will be back later to carry on the discussion.

i find it scary how many idiots i have already met in the sport - now, im no angel, im pretty sure ive done some retarded stuff, but i just dont see how anyone can even think of doing what this guy did.

thanks for all the replies.

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

[caspar 0]

im not sure if i made it clear that the guy asked me to join the jump on the ground probably an hour before we went. spoke to him and forgot him. thinking about it, i dont think i even recongised him on the plane so i wasnt looking out for him as a possible danger.

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

[tombuch 0]

I'll begin my review when the guy asked if could join you. It could be that he had tons of jumps and could have really enhanced your dive. So, the first thing I'd ask is 'how many jumps do you have and what would you like to do?' That gives you a chance to evaluate his experience and offer an informed yes or no.

I have more than 4,500 jumps and will often ask if I can join a pick-up two way. I don't go out of my way to offer my experience, but am always glad to offer if asked. If the two-way doesn't want me to join them that's fine, no offense, and then I'll stay away.

In this case the guy was told not to join in, but then essentially did so anyway. That's rude, and depending on his experience, also dangerous.

When he told you he had been in close proximity as an observer you probably should have said something like "Gosh, we really wanted lots of space so we could slide around and not worry. You may have plenty of experience, but just being there makes us feel crowded, and I'd really appreciate it if you maintained normal exit separation in the future. It would really make us feel safer." Hopefully he would get the message. If he resisted, that's when I'd take it to a DZ official.

I usually think it's better to address issues like that person to person without placing blame on the other guy. I think most people want to do the right thing, and few jumpers intend to create a dangerous or uncomfortable situation. I know sometimes it's tough to think something like that through at the time it happens. You could mention it to the DZ manager at this point and ask him to offer a friendly, non-confrontational training tip to the other jumper, but overall, based on what you described I wouldn't get too upset at this point.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[JohnMitchell 14]

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I'll begin my review when the guy asked if could join you. It could be that he had tons of jumps and could have really enhanced your dive.

The poster said "60-ish jumps since 2003." I read that to mean 60-ish jumps for his 3 year career. Do you think it was a really experieinced, just uncurrent guy? Maybe it is a point that needs clarification.

I've had unexpected swoopers in freefall before, but it's been very experienced friends on low pressure dives. That's okay.

[airtwardo 6]

I don't think you would be a "Rat" for going to the 'powers that be' with your concerns.

If the situation distressed you, as it should have...
You need to let the people that can say / do something about that behaviour know.

It doesn't have to be in the form of a 'complaint' so to speak...just a "Hey by the way, F-Y-I...." kind of thing.

If he did it to you, he may do it to someone else with a very different outcome. The eyes of the DZ need to be made aware he needs some closer attention / observation, and that his decision making is a bit behind the power-curve on safety.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[caspar 0]

warning: 3am here and im pretty (well maybe a bit more than pretty) drunk.

i remember him saying in the midst of telling us he was watching us "solo's are boring". i will try and pass the message on, no chance of me talking to him as i dont know him and rarely go to that DZ.

"That's rude, and depending on his experience, also dangerous. "

in my eyes, not only outrageously rude but stupidly dangerous. hey i know i only have 150 jumps, but this has really struck a nerve.

anyway the reason i mainly posted was so other people didnt think this was an idea that is ok.

ITS NOT.

fuck being civil, from now on im going to make it apparent im not happy if someone is being a dangerous fuktard. i dont spend all my time reading up on jumping and how to be a safe skydiver just to have some cock-jockey go and kill me.

"Gosh, we really wanted lots of space so we could slide around and not worry. " sorry? i really respect your knowledge and your posts have been really informative, but, if id seen him a while after the bombshell he unloaded, i dont think id put it so....delicately.

"based on what you described I wouldn't get too upset at this point."

im just dumbfounded. who the fuck...gets in on someone else's jump...without telling them after being asked not to...when everyone (including me) has very low experience!??if the worst had happened, id like to think [deleted as i got a little graphic and angry]

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

[caspar 0]

from what i remember he started jumping in '03, then left the army. re-joined and started jumping again. i have a pretty shoddy memory at times, so i could be wrong but that's how i remember our (couple of minute) conversation going.

if i ask someone's jump numbers (which i try not to do for a few reasons - unless i might be jumping with them) i always ask how long they have been in the sport. anything less than 100 jumps a year and the red flags start waving in my head and i get wary.

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

[Guest 1010]

>if i ask someone's jump numbers (which i try not to do for a few reasons [...])

I'll ask anybody their jump numbers ... why would you NOT ask that? That is always one of the first things I ask someone new-to-me at the dz.

I think that part of being successful in this sport is successfully managing confrontation, which you need to work on. There IS a middle ground, someplace between posting here (ie doing nothing and remaining pissed) and an altercation. You need to confront the guy, but I don't believe you know how to go about doing it. There are some suggestions here, but if you don't like them then put something else together yourself, and do that. If the physical side if of concern, just have other people around. Most army guys aren't really crazy

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I usually think it's better to address issues like that person to person without placing blame on the other guy.

Isn't that nearly as bad as letting it slide and the guy thinking it was ok to do it?

Who else would the blame be on?

[JohnMitchell 14]

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I'll ask anybody their jump numbers ... why would you NOT ask that? That is always one of the first things I ask someone new-to-me at the dz.

Me too, and I'll volunteer my experience level when I go to a new DZ, just to save someone the embarassment of having to ask. Hey, it's for safety. Who cares if someone gets a little offended because you asked them their experience level before jumping with them? It's my ass up there, you know.

[tombuch 0]

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I usually think it's better to address issues like that person to person without placing blame on the other guy.

Isn't that nearly as bad as letting it slide and the guy thinking it was ok to do it?

Who else would the blame be on?

It's not a blame game. It's about educating and improving safety. Five years of being S&TA at one of the largest DZ's in the northeastern USA certainly taught me how to be civil and deliver a safety message without coming across as an angry cop. A non-confrontational approach generally works best. If the person isn't receptive (rare) then the nasty prick in me must step forward.

Keep in mind most people come to a drop zone to have fun, and most are really focused on being safe. Sometimes their risk management skills are pretty weak, but rarely are they intending to put others in harm's way. Anger is a pretty lame way to improve safety.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Katherine 0]

its totally out of order.

What if your plan had been for the less experianced jumper to dump in place? The lurker didn't know what your plan was and should never have jumped out after you, esp since you declined to jump with him in the first place.

kath x

Leeds University Skydiving Club
www.skydiveleeds.co.uk

[rehmwa 2]

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I would say t depends on how close he was.

I don't care if he's Craig Girard and Dan BC and Olav Zipster all rolled up into one.

Unplanned bodies in the air around you is totally out of line. This guy did it on purpose. He needs an education so he realizes how unsafe his action was.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JohnMitchell 14]

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What if your plan had been for the less experianced jumper to dump in place?

Good question. Never, ever fly over the back of

-A student
-A novice
-Anyone who doesn't know where you are.
-Anyone who doesn't know you are there.


I feel a safe lurk can be done, but I still don't do them.

[rehmwa 2]

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I feel a safe lurk can be done, but I still don't do them.

The 'lurk' we are talking about is specifically defined as - 'unplanned, unannounced, stealth' lurk

though anything "can be done" and got away with

(I feel a "standup on the back of the helmut of his buddy while his buddy dumps and he falls off during deployment" can be done, but I still don't do them)

"can be done" is a lot different than safe practices - look at the 'Good Idea, Bad Idea' thread

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants