airtwardo 6 #26 November 14, 2006 Wasn't there something a few years back about Slick Willie selling the Chinese the machines and the technology to MAKE their subs quieter? Gee, guess it worked! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #27 November 14, 2006 QuoteQuotehow do you think the aircraft just happend to spot it while it was surfaced. I wonder why it surfaced at all. It's diesel-electric. They can't stay submerged indefinitely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #28 November 14, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuotehow do you think the aircraft just happend to spot it while it was surfaced. I wonder why it surfaced at all. It's diesel-electric. They can't stay submerged indefinitely. Do youfind it odd it surfaced so close to the Kitty Hawk Group? I would think the Capitan of the Chinese Sub would have planned to be farther away unless he wanted the U.S. to know he was shadowing them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #29 November 14, 2006 QuoteWasn't there something a few years back about Slick Willie selling the Chinese the machines and the technology to MAKE their subs quieter? The Chinese appear to have three types of diesel-electric boat in service, with the best being Russian Kilo-class subs. So, unlikely that you've anyone to blame but those pesky Ruskies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
metalslug 31 #30 November 14, 2006 Quoted from the article: "...surfaced within firing range of its torpedoes and missiles before being detected..." and then: "...surfaced within five miles of the carrier..." So, how close was it really? The effective range of a good torpedo is only about 2000 yards (1.1 miles), but the effective range of the C-801 / C-802 submerged-launch anti-ship cruise missile is well over 50 miles. 5 miles therefore seems to be a moot distance for a possible attack, too far for torpedoes and much closer than it needs to be for a missile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #31 November 14, 2006 Quote>It wasn't to protect RADAR. It was to protect a human source of information. Ah, but that's exactly what JR WANTS you to think.LOLI hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #32 November 14, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuotehow do you think the aircraft just happend to spot it while it was surfaced. I wonder why it surfaced at all. It's diesel-electric. They can't stay submerged indefinitely. Depends on whether or not it's fitted with a snorkel. They can run the diesels to recharge the batterires and ventilate the boat while snorkeling.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #33 November 14, 2006 QuoteQuoted from the article: "...surfaced within firing range of its torpedoes and missiles before being detected..." and then: "...surfaced within five miles of the carrier..." So, how close was it really? The effective range of a good torpedo is only about 2000 yards (1.1 miles), but the effective range of the C-801 / C-802 submerged-launch anti-ship cruise missile is well over 50 miles. 5 miles therefore seems to be a moot distance for a possible attack, too far for torpedoes and much closer than it needs to be for a missile. I'm pretty sure that there hasn't been a torpedo with a range less than 5 miles since the end of WWII, but i could be mistaken. A few of the Chinese torpedos: The 53-63K wake homing torpedo has a max range of 18km. The YU-1 antiship torpedo has a 9km range. Test-71 antiship torpedo has a range up to 20km.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #34 November 14, 2006 QuoteI'm curious as to where the carriers group's submarine was, it could have been behind the chinese sub for all we know... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #35 November 14, 2006 QuoteQuotehow do you think the aircraft just happend to spot it while it was surfaced. I wonder why it surfaced at all. - Maybe to be friendly enough that they didn't wind up feeding the crabs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #36 November 14, 2006 I would love to know what kind of games the Navy is going to play with the Chinese Navy now. Our guys are good. I'm sure they'll think of something to get in the Chinese's heads.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #37 November 14, 2006 I wonder is the Chinese Sailors had to Stand To on the Rails Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #38 November 14, 2006 QuoteWasn't there something a few years back about Slick Willie selling the Chinese the machines and the technology to MAKE their subs quieter? Gee, guess it worked! I suspect you are thinking of the Toshiba case. It was the Japanese that sold the technology.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #39 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuotehow do you think the aircraft just happend to spot it while it was surfaced. I wonder why it surfaced at all. - "Gotcha!", maybe. But tipping one's hand like that would be bad form for a sub skipper, IMO. Better to egress the area and make a report back to Operations once safely in the clear. Their target will be more wary from now on. The other side of that could be to force the surface target group to expend more resources like fuel, sonobuoys, flight hours, etc. to deal with the challenge, but I wouldn't do make them do that unless it was for a very good reason; e.g., a feint of some kind to draw the surface group's attention away from something else. If the surface group was inside of territiorial waters, the skipper may have had orders to give the surface group a surprise party. If that's the case, the mission was accomplished. mh"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #40 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuotehow do you think the aircraft just happend to spot it while it was surfaced. I wonder why it surfaced at all. - "Gotcha!", maybe. But tipping one's hand like that would be bad form for a sub skipper, IMO. Better to egress the area and make a report back to Operations once safely in the clear. Their target will be more wary from now on. The other side of that could be to force the surface target group to expend more resources like fuel, sonobuoys, flight hours, etc. to deal with the challenge, but I wouldn't do make them do that unless it was for a very good reason; e.g., a feint of some kind to draw the surface group's attention away from something else. If the surface group was inside of territiorial waters, the skipper may have had orders to give the surface group a surprise party. If that's the case, the mission was accomplished. mhA little more from todays news>http://www.washtimes.com/national/20061114-123345-3750r.htmI hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #41 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuotehow do you think the aircraft just happend to spot it while it was surfaced. I wonder why it surfaced at all. - "Gotcha!", maybe. But tipping one's hand like that would be bad form for a sub skipper, IMO. Better to egress the area and make a report back to Operations once safely in the clear. Their target will be more wary from now on. The other side of that could be to force the surface target group to expend more resources like fuel, sonobuoys, flight hours, etc. to deal with the challenge, but I wouldn't do make them do that unless it was for a very good reason; e.g., a feint of some kind to draw the surface group's attention away from something else. If the surface group was inside of territiorial waters, the skipper may have had orders to give the surface group a surprise party. If that's the case, the mission was accomplished. mh The motive may simply be inscrutible. Whatever, it is still an embarrassment for the US Navy.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #42 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteWasn't there something a few years back about Slick Willie selling the Chinese the machines and the technology to MAKE their subs quieter? Gee, guess it worked! I suspect you are thinking of the Toshiba case. It was the Japanese that sold the technology. http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=1999/3/9/164928 http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/05/23/clinton.china/ http://www.fas.org/news/china/1998/h980618-prc11.htm In addition to the supercomputers, satellite technology, fighter jet technology, and missile technology.... ...we also sold them several 5 axis CNC milling machines, on it's face maybe not so bad...except that the type, variety and size of said milling machines is used in the U.S. for mainly one thing....machining precise angles on nuclear sub screws....makes 'em quiet. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #43 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteWasn't there something a few years back about Slick Willie selling the Chinese the machines and the technology to MAKE their subs quieter? Gee, guess it worked! I suspect you are thinking of the Toshiba case. It was the Japanese that sold the technology. http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=1999/3/9/164928 http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/05/23/clinton.china/ http://www.fas.org/news/china/1998/h980618-prc11.htm In addition to the supercomputers, satellite technology, fighter jet technology, and missile technology.... ...we also sold them several 5 axis CNC milling machines, on it's face maybe not so bad...except that the type, variety and size of said milling machines is used in the U.S. for mainly one thing....machining precise angles on nuclear sub screws....makes 'em quiet. No way!!! The "most ethical administration in history" would *NEVER* have done anything like that!!!! Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #44 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteWasn't there something a few years back about Slick Willie selling the Chinese the machines and the technology to MAKE their subs quieter? Gee, guess it worked! I suspect you are thinking of the Toshiba case. It was the Japanese that sold the technology. http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=1999/3/9/164928 http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/05/23/clinton.china/ http://www.fas.org/news/china/1998/h980618-prc11.htm In addition to the supercomputers, satellite technology, fighter jet technology, and missile technology.... ...we also sold them several 5 axis CNC milling machines, on it's face maybe not so bad...except that the type, variety and size of said milling machines is used in the U.S. for mainly one thing....machining precise angles on nuclear sub screws....makes 'em quiet. I thought you said "MAKE their subs quieter", but your links have to do with satellites and fighter jets. BTW, Newsmax is a joke. Here's quiet sub stuff, which happened on Reagan's watch. : www.heritage.org/Research/TradeandForeignAid/EM170.cfm www.japanlaw.info/lawletter/april87/fdf.htm US supplied technology to Japan, Japan sold it to Russia, Russia supplied it to China.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #45 November 15, 2006 JPID (Japan Did It First) isn't a defense...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #46 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWasn't there something a few years back about Slick Willie selling the Chinese the machines and the technology to MAKE their subs quieter? Gee, guess it worked! I suspect you are thinking of the Toshiba case. It was the Japanese that sold the technology. http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=1999/3/9/164928 http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/05/23/clinton.china/ http://www.fas.org/news/china/1998/h980618-prc11.htm In addition to the supercomputers, satellite technology, fighter jet technology, and missile technology.... ...we also sold them several 5 axis CNC milling machines, on it's face maybe not so bad...except that the type, variety and size of said milling machines is used in the U.S. for mainly one thing....machining precise angles on nuclear sub screws....makes 'em quiet. I thought you said "MAKE their subs quieter", but your links have to do with satellites and fighter jets. BTW, Newsmax is a joke. Here's quiet sub stuff, which happened on Reagan's watch. : www.heritage.org/Research/TradeandForeignAid/EM170.cfm www.japanlaw.info/lawletter/april87/fdf.htm US supplied technology to Japan, Japan sold it to Russia, Russia supplied it to China. No where in your cited source does it say that the US sold the technology, that Toshiba sold to Russia, to Japan. I remember this news back in the day, a lot of Japanese companies couldn't do business with the US for a number of years. It is slightly different from, and not nearly as damagin as what the Chinese stole from the US during the 90s.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azdiver 0 #47 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteWasn't there something a few years back about Slick Willie selling the Chinese the machines and the technology to MAKE their subs quieter? Gee, guess it worked! I suspect you are thinking of the Toshiba case. It was the Japanese that sold the technology.yea instead slick willie sold them the missle tech. so they could actually hit what their aiming atlight travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,427 #48 November 15, 2006 >yea instead slick willie sold them the missle tech . . . At least he got some money for it! We recently gave away the plans (in Arabic) for implosion-based nuclear weapons. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #49 November 15, 2006 Quote>yea instead slick willie sold them the missle tech . . . At least he got some money for it! We recently gave away the plans (in Arabic) for implosion-based nuclear weapons. But at least we still have control of the Panama Canal! Oh...wait.... ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #50 November 15, 2006 Quote>yea instead slick willie sold them the missle tech . . . At least he got some money for it! We recently gave away the plans (in Arabic) for implosion-based nuclear weapons. And the codes for the Trident missiles were recently found in a drug den in Los Alamos.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
