Value of life: US/Israel vs. terrorists

[outrager 6]

If anybody wants to understand why US or Israel is disliked or hated so much by so many around the globe, one can first look at an easier target: terrorists.

Terrorists are universally hated because they disregard life, killing scores of innocent people for advancing their goals. Terrorists are uniform in their approach, placing little value on their own life or that of "their" people.

US and Israel claim that human life is priceless and should be treasured. Indeed, when americans or israelis are killed, it is a big deal. Just a couple of kidnapped israelis is enough to start a war. A couple of thousand of dead americans is enough to devastate two countries.

The end result: US and Israel kill scores of innocent people while advancing their goals. They don't kill "for", they kill "while" - but this difference is irrelevant for outside observers.

What matters is they don't just disregard life and kill innocents on a huge scale that terrorists can't even approach. They also separate life into valuable "western" people, and dispensable subhumans on the other side that nobody even bothers to count.

This was only natural in barbaric times. Nowadays, this is the most repulsive thing i can think of.

bsbd!

Yuri.

[SpeedRacer 1]

The intended target of a terrorist attack is civilians.

The intended target of traditional warriors is other warriors.

Speed Racer
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[wmw999 2,130]

In Afghanistan and Iraq we are fighting on their turf, people in their homes sometimes. Some are warriors, some just look like warriors, and some are civilians.

We only have warriors over there.

That's how it looks to the outside world. Whether our soldiers have the best intentions in the world (which the vast majority do, they're still injuring and killing sons, brothers, fathers, husbands -- of people who are close by.

And enough sisters, etc. to make it clear that they are the victims here. We were victims 5 years ago, and they're still paying.

Is it right? Not necessarily. But there isn't a right. As someone green used to say, war is the most horrible way there is to solve a conflict.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[outrager 6]

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The intended target of a terrorist attack is civilians.

The intended target of traditional warriors is other warriors.

The goals and intentions are irrelevant in a value-of-life framework. This warrior knows he will kill civilians while targeting warriors. He disregards it and kills more civilians than terrorists ever manage, because a few of "his" people are worth more than lifes of a whole other country.

Good intentions pave the road to hell.

bsbd!

Yuri.

[SpeedRacer 1]

Correct re. loss of civilian life by traditional warriors. The target is still relevant, though.

Speed Racer
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[tbrown 26]

Anybody who wants to start a war, not just with the U.S., but with anybody, should stop and think about the price. Anyone who goes to war puts their civilian population at risk of all sorts of horrible things. People get maimed and killed; women children, the elderly. Nobody thinks it's a good thing.

But some of these people aren't thinking of that when they go launching rockets into Israeli cities, or sending suicide bombers into crowded civilian marketplaces. I believe they do so with a cynical calculation that they expect innocent casualties among their own people so that they can further whip up people's emotions and gain recruits to their cause.

General William Tecumseh Sherman not only said "War is hell", he also said that since the Confederacy had made the choice for war, he intended to "give them war in full measure".

Sad but true. Wars are a lot easier to start than they are to end.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[falxori 0]

***US and Israel claim that human life is priceless and should be treasured. ***

exactly. and I'm proud of it.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Richards 0]

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What matters is they don't just disregard life and kill innocents on a huge scale that terrorists can't even approach. They also separate life into valuable "western" people, and dispensable subhumans on the other side that nobody even bothers to count.

I suspect that pretty much every country in the world will seperate human life into "our people" and "those people" during a time of war and will show the same bias with respect to human suffering. Why is this something that should uniquely single out Isreal and the US for hatred? Or is it just that some people want to hate them and will find any reason they can?



Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[billvon 2,407]

>I suspect that pretty much every country in the world will seperate
> human life into "our people" and "those people" during a time of
> war and will show the same bias with respect to human suffering.
> Why is this something that should uniquely single out Isreal and the
> US for hatred?

Because those two countries are currently bringing war to the Middle East. (Yes, I know, they were both provoked. Doesn't change the fact that those two countries are doing far more destroying than any others right now.)

The Swedes probably feel exactly the same way. But since they did not recently invade Iraq, they are not expressing that feeling through violence.

[Richards 0]

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Because those two countries are currently bringing war to the Middle East. (Yes, I know, they were both provoked. Doesn't change the fact that those two countries are doing far more destroying than any others right now.)

I can see what you are saying with respect to the US invasion of Iraq but I do not see Isreal bringing a war. While you may not agree with their tactics I hardly see them asking for this war. Either way even before Iraq and this latest Isreal/Lebanon/Palestine thing, everyone seemed to hate these two countries. Not saying there aren't some legitimate greivances but much of this hate will exist regardless of what they do.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[billvon 2,407]

>I do not see Isreal bringing a war.

-----------
Israeli ships, planes renew Beirut airport attacks
Friday, July 14, 2006; Posted: 12:42 p.m. EDT (16:42 GMT)
Israeli warships and aircraft were clamping down on Lebanon's air, sea and land infrastructure on Friday, three days after Hezbollah guerrillas kidnapped two Israeli soldiers.
----------


>While you may not agree with their tactics I hardly see them asking for this war.

Like I said, I am not disputing that there was provocation. But Israelis are currently blowing up big parts of Lebanon. They are now the aggressors by several orders of magnitude.

[Richards 0]

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Israeli ships, planes renew Beirut airport attacks
Friday, July 14, 2006; Posted: 12:42 p.m. EDT (16:42 GMT)
Israeli warships and aircraft were clamping down on Lebanon's air, sea and land infrastructure on Friday, three days after Hezbollah guerrillas kidnapped two Israeli soldiers.

I am not sure how you would expect them to respond to the attack on their troops. If I may use a barfight analogy, it would be wrong for a 240 pound guy to provoke a fight with a guy my size but if I punch him without provocation, he does have the right to defend himself even if it is against a smaller guy. Perhaps a weak analogy but just trying to convey my perspective

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Like I said, I am not disputing that there was provocation. But Israelis are currently blowing up big parts of Lebanon. They are now the aggressors by several orders of magnitude.

[billvon 2,407]

>I am not sure how you would expect them to respond to the attack on their troops.

For the third time - I AM NOT SAYING THEY WERE UNPROVOKED. The fact is that the US and Israel are currently two of (if not the two) biggest aggressors in the world. That's why they're currently being singled out. It goes with the territory - if you start a war, be prepared to be called violent. It's true by definition.

[rushmc 18]

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Anybody who wants to start a war, not just with the U.S., but with anybody, should stop and think about the price. Anyone who goes to war puts their civilian population at risk of all sorts of horrible things. People get maimed and killed; women children, the elderly. Nobody thinks it's a good thing.

But some of these people aren't thinking of that when they go launching rockets into Israeli cities, or sending suicide bombers into crowded civilian marketplaces. I believe they do so with a cynical calculation that they expect innocent casualties among their own people so that they can further whip up people's emotions and gain recruits to their cause.

General William Tecumseh Sherman not only said "War is hell", he also said that since the Confederacy had made the choice for war, he intended to "give them war in full measure".

Sad but true. Wars are a lot easier to start than they are to end.

and the enemy was a lot easier to recognise.....

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

Doesn't change the fact that those two countries are doing far more destroying than any others right now.

Quote

Once again a nice statement of genralization you can't back up

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

• Quote

[billvon 2,407]

>Once again a nice statement of genralization you can't back up

It's not a generalization. Right now, those two countries (the US and Israel) are doing more destroying than any other. Doesn't mean that will be true in a year, but it is true now.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060714/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel;_ylt=AnsC7lwGbw4lDyt2s2qllYys0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

[rushmc 18]

Quote

>Once again a nice statement of genralization you can't back up

It's not a generalization. Right now, those two countries (the US and Israel) are doing more destroying than any other. Doesn't mean that will be true in a year, but it is true now.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060714/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel;_ylt=AnsC7lwGbw4lDyt2s2qllYys0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

Nice, still does not back you statement up.

I do believe that is your opinion and I have no problem with it being just that.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,407]

>The intended target of traditional warriors is other warriors.

So by that definition kidnapping a soldier would make one a warrior, not a terrorist, no?

>The intended target of a terrorist attack is civilians.

So bombing a power plant and killing the people working there would make the pilots of those bombers terrorists, no?

The whole label of "terrorist" has gone from "someone who uses violence to cause terror for political ends" to "anyone who is our enemy." It's similar to the use of "communist" during the 50's and 60's; a catch-all for someone who opposes the US. It would be far more accurate to portray the conflict in Israel as one between two governments than between good and evil, or between law and terror.

[billvon 2,407]

>Nice, still does not back you statement up.

Find one other country who has destroyed more of another country in the past week or so.

[rehmwa 2]

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>Find one other country who has destroyed more of another country in the past week or so.

It's not a country, but last night I cleaned out the can used for lawn clippings and dumped it in the back yard.

IT WAS NOT PRETTY


Edit: Forgot the disclaimer
{do not drive heavy machinery while under the influence of this post, check with your doctor before beginning any heavy exercise regimen}

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SpeedRacer 1]

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>The intended target of traditional warriors is other warriors.

So by that definition kidnapping a soldier would make one a warrior, not a terrorist, no?

>The intended target of a terrorist attack is civilians.

So bombing a power plant and killing the people working there would make the pilots of those bombers terrorists, no?

yes, I suppose you're right.

although I would like to point out that most of the Iraqi civilians getting killed are being killed by Iraqi insurgents, not by Americans.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[outrager 6]

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I believe they do so with a cynical calculation that they expect innocent casualties among their own people so that they can further whip up people's emotions and gain recruits to their cause.

Exactly! Those pieces of s*it order acts that kill scores of civilians with a cynical calculation.

Likewise US and Israeli leaders do so, with a cynical calculation. The difference is... well there is no difference. They are the same cynical hypocritical pieces of s*it.

By the way it transfers down the chain of command. "Just following orders" is a good excuse for Predator drone, but it is not for a human pilot of B52.

bsbd!

Yuri.

[outrager 6]

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exactly. and I'm proud of it.

You misquoted. My post stated they do not value human life, they only value that of selected people - just like Nazi did. Quite a joke history plays here

bsbd!

Yuri.

[Darius11 12]

great post

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[downwardspiral 0]

Give em hell Israel, give em hell.

www.FourWheelerHB.com