narcimund 0 #126 April 16, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteSweet! Another Arms Race...I need to dust off my resume' for the defense contractors... There's so much more significance to this little throwaway comment than you realize. Well, Suzie...I mean it literally and as a reference to the military-industrial complex. If the morons in DC are going to start an arms race, I might as well get a piece of the pie. I have a Politics degree and a Business degree. I am well aware that some people stand to profit off an arms race. So...while you grouse and whine about the victimization of some pathetic little subset of society, I'll be cashing a check with lots of zeros on it. -Commence Whining- And this is a snapshot of exactly why millions of people get slaughtered in way every year -- and why we should all fear annihilation any time -- because of people who think like this. First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #127 April 16, 2006 QuoteDid we all die in a nuclear fireball when our arch-enemy, an empire intent on our destruction, got nuclear weapons? Nope. We learned that there are alternatives to war, and we used those alternatives. Best not forget those lessons. Yes I agree with you -- Reagan was a great president. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #128 April 16, 2006 QuoteSo...while you grouse and whine about the victimization of some pathetic little subset of society, I'll be cashing a check with lots of zeros on it. "Folks, I'd like to sing a song about the American dream. in the bottom of our chests. About that special feeling we get in the cockles of our hearts, maybe below the cockles, maybe in the subcockle area. Maybe in the liver. Maybe in the kidneys. Maybe even in the colon, we don't know. (Sung) I'm just a regular Joe with a regular job. I'm your average white suburbanite slob. I like football and porno and books about war. I got an average house with a nice hardwood floor. My wife and my job, my kids and my car. My feet on my table...and a cuban cigar. But sometimes that just ain't enough to keep a man like me interested no way No, I've gotta go out and have fun at someone else's expense Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I drive really slow in the ultra-fast lane, While people behind me are going insane. I'm an asshole I'm an asshole I walk around in the summertime saying "How about this heat?" I use public toilets and I piss on the seat, I'm an asshole I'm an asshole Sometimes I park in handicapped spaces, While handicapped people make handicapped faces. I'm an asshole I'm an asshole Maybe I shouldn't be singing this song Ranting and raving and carrying on Maybe they're right when they tell me I'm wrong... NAAAAH! I'm an asshole I'm an asshole Know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna get myself a 1967 Cadillac El Dorado (Spoken) Convertible, hot pink, with whaleskin hubcaps and all-leather cow interior and big brown baby seal eyes for headlights... yeah! And I'm gonna drive around in that baby at 115 miles per hour, getting 1 mile per gallon, suckin' down quarter pound cheeseburgers from McDonald's in the old-fashioned non-biodegradable styrofoam containers and when on the American Flag and then I'm gonna toss the styrofoam containers I'm done suckin' down those greaseball burgers I'm gonna wipe my mouth right out the side, and there ain't a goddamn thing anybody can do about it. You know why? Because we got the bombs, that's why Two words: Nuclear fuckin' weapons, OK? Russia, Germany, Romania, they can have all the democracy they want...they can have a big democracy dead, he's frozen! And as soon as we find a cure for cancer, we're cakewalk right through the middle of Tienamen Square and it won't make a lick of difference, because we got the bombs, OK? John Wayne's not gonna thaw out the Duke and he's gonna be pretty pissed off. You know million times, that's how pissed off the Duke's gonna be. why? Have you ever taken a cold shower? Well, multiply that by 15 I'm gonna get the Duke and John Casavetti and Lee Marvin and Sam Peckinpaw and a case of whisky and drive to Texas...(HEY, HEY HEY!> Why don't you shut up and sing the song, pal? (Sung) I'm an asshole I'm an asshole A S-S H-O L-E Arf, Arf Arf, Arf Arf, Arf Arf Everybody, A S-S H-O L-E Oooooooo Thoomph A-thoom-thoom A-thoom-thoom A-thoom-thoom (Spoken) I'm an asshole and I'm proud of it." - Dennis Leary . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #129 April 16, 2006 QuackWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ExAFO 0 #130 April 16, 2006 QuoteQuoteSo...while you grouse and whine about the victimization of some pathetic little subset of society, I'll be cashing a check with lots of zeros on it. "Folks, I'd like to sing a song about the American dream. in the bottom of our chests. About that special feeling we get in the cockles of our hearts, maybe below the cockles, maybe in the subcockle area. Maybe in the liver. Maybe in the kidneys. Maybe even in the colon, we don't know. ...- Dennis Leary Yes, I am an asshole. Thank you for noticing.Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #131 April 16, 2006 QuoteYes, I am an asshole. Thank you for noticing. Hey, I'm a quick study. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #132 April 17, 2006 Quote>Prepare how? Build bomb shelters like we did in the 1960's? Did we all die in a nuclear fireball when our arch-enemy, an empire intent on our destruction, got nuclear weapons? Nope. We learned that there are alternatives to war, and we used those alternatives. Best not forget those lessons. You didn't answer the question. Just because a certain threat didn't pan out in past history, doesn't mean a similar threat in current times will end the same way. And if you're Israel, the stakes are much higher. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NelKel 0 #133 April 17, 2006 Yeah, Irans' leader said Isreal should be wiped off the face of the planet, and oh by the way were restarting our nuke program for electricity/other peaceful needs._________________________________________ Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #134 April 17, 2006 Quote>Prepare how? Build bomb shelters like we did in the 1960's? Did we all die in a nuclear fireball when our arch-enemy, an empire intent on our destruction, got nuclear weapons? Nope. We learned that there are alternatives to war, and we used those alternatives. Best not forget those lessons. Yeah, all that time during the Cold War, there were no casualties, or proxy wars. The alternatives were acceptable to the super powers of the time because there were never publicly displayed direct extensions of power, and there were fewer "casualties" suffered by the USSR and USA, but people were killed on each side, and many more of other countries during the time. In a way, it proves that there are few alternatives to war.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #135 April 17, 2006 QuoteAnd this is a snapshot of exactly why millions of people get slaughtered in way every year -- and why we should all fear annihilation any time -- because of people who think like this. Unfortunately, "we can't all just get along." Call me pessimistic, but given the tools of today, I don't believe there's a steady-state solution for mankind that involves all nations at peace with one another. The more things we remove as problems from the equation, the more absurd reasons we'll come up with to fight with one another. Right now, it would seem, we're somewhere between oil and Islam. Even more unfortunately, war sucks. But that, evidently, isn't enough to deter people from engaging in it. No, the best way to prevent absurd things from leading to war is to make war, in no uncertain terms, and to all parties involved, an even more absurd proposition. Nuclear weapons did just that by guaranteeing that you can, at best, tie. However they have that nasty side effect of causing, "fear of annihilation at any time," which is generally regarded as a bad thing. Maybe someday, mankind will get to a point where, not through use of fear, wars have become so ridiculous that they're no longer fought. Perhaps this will be via a new breakthrough in logic, reason, and diplomacy, or perhaps not, but if you think the entire defense industry is a bunch of monkeys pulling levers when the red light comes on to put the fins on the bomb, then you're mistaken. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,476 #136 April 17, 2006 >Yeah, all that time during the Cold War, there were no casualties, or >proxy wars. There were several proxy wars. We fight them (or get other people to fight them) all the time; have been for a few hundred years now. But we avoided a war with our enemy during the Cold War because we finally realized that the way to lose some wars is to fight them. We can do the same now if we choose to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,476 #137 April 17, 2006 > No, the best way to prevent absurd things from leading to war is to make > war, in no uncertain terms, and to all parties involved, an even more >absurd proposition. Nuclear weapons did just that by guaranteeing that > you can, at best, tie. A good statement of the issue - and one that, unfortunately, leads to a world that's heavily armed enough that no one will risk war to accomplish their goals. I fear some people here will reject that philosophy, though, because they feel that some people are simply too dumb to have nuclear weapons. In the long run, there's not really any way to prevent it, though. Our enemies already have them - and we are learning to live with China and North Korea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #138 April 17, 2006 Kinda like a poker game eh?. I say let em have em. Or see if they are bluffing?. MAD baby. I do believe if they do or will have them they won't use them unless ATTACKED. MAD baby. .They know they will come out on the short end of the stick for sure. If I have to say it again "If we keep out of nose out of everyone elses beexwax MAYBE they will quit fucking w/us" And you can quote me on thatI hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likearock 1 #139 April 17, 2006 QuoteKinda like a poker game eh?. I say let em have em. Or see if they are bluffing?. MAD baby. I do believe if they do or will have them they won't use them unless ATTACKED. MAD baby. .They know they will come out on the short end of the stick for sure. If I have to say it again "If we keep out of nose out of everyone elses beexwax MAYBE they will quit fucking w/us" And you can quote me on that Oh I'm pretty confident that MAD will prevent a direct strike that can be retaliated against. My greatest fear is that the Iranian nuclear material gets in the hands of the suicide bombers and it no longer becomes traceable to the source. MAD only works when there's a return address on the package. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #140 April 17, 2006 QuoteMAD only works when there's a return address on the package. You have a great way of getting down to the brass tacks... I like it!My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #141 April 17, 2006 Quote....MAD only works when there's a return address on the package. The "FEDEX" bomb theory. The counter to this is that weapons grade material actually carrys the "fingerprint" of the reactor which produces it. This is how it was established who, how & when helped Israel's nuclear program along. It's also a very strong motivation against countries "losing" fissile material. Were a FEDEX bomb to be found or detonated, say in The US, then retaliation is virtually inevitable. Governments KNOW that claiming "A Bad Boy did it & ran away" just wouldn't wash without COMPELLING reason to believe them. Bear in mind that Nukes are intrinsically a defensive weapon. Since 1945, not a single nuclear power has devised a morally defensible way to use them offensively. The only thing that Nukes can do is ensure that "The Other Side Doesn't Win Either"! You CAN'T win a war with Nukes... You CAN ensure that the other side also loses. That's what makes Nukes so attractive to Iran. At present, with Russia & Turkey to their North, Iraq to their West, Saudi & The Gulf States to their South, Pakistan & Afghanistan to their East... ALL "In The US Camp" (if not actually US occupied, then sympathetic)... Iran feels surrounded & beleagured. They NEED the ability to render any invasion worthless. They NEED the ability to make any war "Total" & therefore suicidal. And I'm pretty sure that Iran has already worked out that nuclear doctrine is a Two-Edged-Sword. Rhetoric can be ignored. Acts have consequences. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #142 April 17, 2006 QuoteHow come THEY can have them and WE can't? Where's the fetus supposed to gestate? Are you going to keep it in a box? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hawkins121 0 #143 April 17, 2006 Quote>Prepare how? Build bomb shelters like we did in the 1960's? Did we all die in a nuclear fireball when our arch-enemy, an empire intent on our destruction, got nuclear weapons? Nope. We learned that there are alternatives to war, and we used those alternatives. Best not forget those lessons. Wrong... The reason why we arent all speaking Russian was our policy of Deterence... The lesson we learned from the cold war is build as many weapons as possible and let you opponent tremble in fear and then go bankrupt trying to keep up with you. The difference between russian and Iran is the people that are in power in Iran really believe they are on a mission from god and it is their DUTY to kill the Infidels... (Us) Russia just wanted to spread communism and gain power economically... We can stop the development of Nuclear weapons in Iran by dropping a few thousand tons of Bombs on a few industrial and military targets... It will be done if they do not stop their research... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,476 #144 April 17, 2006 >Wrong... The reason why we arent all speaking Russian was our >policy of Deterence... Right. Deterrence is an alternative to war. It worked. >The lesson we learned from the cold war is build as many weapons > as possible and let you opponent tremble in fear and then go > bankrupt trying to keep up with you. Well, no. Had we built as many weapons as possible we would have gone bankrupt too. We built enough to deter them, and enough to make them spend lots of money trying to match us. >The difference between russian and Iran is the people that are in > power in Iran really believe they are on a mission from god and it is > their DUTY to kill the Infidels... (Us) Russia just wanted to spread > communism and gain power economically... Had you said that in the 50's, you would have been branded a lunatic and blacklisted. The government needs its subjects to fear outside attack; makes it MUCH easier to carry out their desired policies. In the 50's it was the USSR. Today it's religious terrorists. In 30 years it will be China, and someone like you will be posting something like: "The difference between China and Iran is that China has a massive arsenal, will stop at nothing to dominate the world, and has an insane leader. Iran's leader just blustered a lot; China's new leader is crazy." And thus will the 'war on chinese communism' eclipse this one. >We can stop the development of Nuclear weapons in Iran by > dropping a few thousand tons of Bombs on a few industrial and > military targets... . . . thus irradiating Pakistan and India. And they DO have nukes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hawkins121 0 #145 April 17, 2006 I agree. Especially about someone will be posting something like I did about china in 30 years.. I have no rebuttal... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #146 April 17, 2006 Quote>We can stop the development of Nuclear weapons in Iran by > dropping a few thousand tons of Bombs on a few industrial and > military targets... . . . thus irradiating Pakistan and India. And they DO have nukes. He didn't specify nuclear bombs. By saying "a few thousand tons", I believe he was referring to using conventional bombs, to destroy Iran's nuclear facilities. No radiation to be spread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,476 #147 April 17, 2006 > I believe he was referring to using conventional bombs, to destroy > Iran's nuclear facilities. No radiation to be spread. Is it your belief that Iran's nuclear facilities do not contain any nuclear materials? If so, then there is no risk of spreading radiation - but also no need for the bombing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hawkins121 0 #148 April 17, 2006 QuoteQuote>We can stop the development of Nuclear weapons in Iran by > dropping a few thousand tons of Bombs on a few industrial and > military targets... . . . thus irradiating Pakistan and India. And they DO have nukes. He didn't specify nuclear bombs. By saying "a few thousand tons", I believe he was referring to using conventional bombs, to destroy Iran's nuclear facilities. No radiation to be spread. Exactly right... We wont ever Nuke Iran... Unless they sent a nuke at us first... We would blow the shit out of them with Smart Bombs though! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #149 April 17, 2006 Quote . . thus irradiating Pakistan and India. And they DO have nukes. Well, yeah, but let's face it: they have an overabundance of people. A few mil here, a few mil there - they can handle it. Plus, have you seen their movies? - they have pretty good senses of humor. They might just laugh & shrug it off. You never know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #150 April 17, 2006 Quote Well, no. Had we built as many weapons as possible we would have gone bankrupt too. We built enough to deter them, and enough to make them spend lots of money trying to match us. The first thousand did more than enough for deterrence. The next 20,000? It was a massively expensive version of Chicken meets 'Bomber Gap!' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
