Richards 0
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JohnRich 4
Interesting topic.
I remember some Congressional hearings about nuclear safety several decades ago. A geiger counter was brought into the chamber and turned on. Congressmen were alarmed! Had someone snuck plutonium into Congress?
The point of the demonstration was this: radioactivity occurs naturally in many substances. Such as the granite from which Congress is constructed. And that's nothing to worry about, as it is no threat to your health.
If you work in a granite office building, you are being bombarded daily by radioactivity. No need to panic.
I have no idea if this is the same situation with depleted uranium.
But I tell that story just to point out that not all levels of radioactivity are abnormal and/or harmful.
I remember some Congressional hearings about nuclear safety several decades ago. A geiger counter was brought into the chamber and turned on. Congressmen were alarmed! Had someone snuck plutonium into Congress?
The point of the demonstration was this: radioactivity occurs naturally in many substances. Such as the granite from which Congress is constructed. And that's nothing to worry about, as it is no threat to your health.
If you work in a granite office building, you are being bombarded daily by radioactivity. No need to panic.
I have no idea if this is the same situation with depleted uranium.
But I tell that story just to point out that not all levels of radioactivity are abnormal and/or harmful.
kallend 1,653
QuoteQuoteWhen a depleted uranium tipped shell strikes a tank or armored personnel carrier it easily penetrates the armor and burns the crew alive.
I don't know jack about D.U., but this sounds interesting. How does it burn them alive? Does D.U. have incindiary properties? I really don't know so please tell me how this works.
Richards
Uranium burns spontaneously in air if finely powdered (pyrophoric). A round hitting armor will disintegrate into fine enough particles to catch fire. So yes, it does have incendiary properties under those conditions.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Quote
Uranium burns spontaneously in air if finely powdered (pyrophoric).
That calls to mind a great physics lesson from 8th grade...making a "bomb" out of a coffee tin, a pile of white flour, and a candle. Pile the flour on top of s screen, put the screen on the wide end of a funnel and run a hose from the small end to a plunger or a rubber bulb. Light the candle & seal the tin. Quickly squeeze the plunger or bulb to disperse the flour before the oxygen runs out...boom. Don't try this at home, kids!
I believe the lesson was that many unconventional things are combustible and / or explosive if you grind them fine enough. Grain elevator explosions come to mind as well.... Kinda makes me wonder why it's still legal to carry bags of flour and plastic bags onto airplanes.
My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?
billvon 2,438
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>This has to be a line or statistic from Wikipedia/Google/Yahoo or
>something!!? There are still a bunch of reactors out there using (both HEU
> & LEU) fuel with another digit in front of your 3 and 5% enrichment....
True, but they are rare. While some reactors use very highly enriched uranium (nuclear submarines use close to weapons-quality uranium for long runs betwen refuelings) most reactors use low enrichment uranium. PWR's and BWR's (the type used in the US, light-water reactors) use 3-5% enrichment levels. Interestingly, CANDU reactors (primarily found in Canada) can use natural uranium, with 'enrichment' levels below 1%.
It is easier to build reactors with more highly enriched fuel, and thus most research reactors (and some military reactors, as mentioned above) use higher enrichment fuel. Commercial power reactors use the lowest possible enrichment because highly enriched uranium is a massive security threat. You can't build a bomb with 3% enriched uranium, but you can with 50% enriched uranium.
>Am I missing the point, or has Mo fuel finally stopped playing cards
>with the easter bunny???
You mean MOX? Reprocessed fuel of that sort has been a political hot potato for some time. Some think it increases the odds of nuclear proliferation, and thus are against it. Personally I think it's a great use for degraded weapons-quality plutonium.
>something!!? There are still a bunch of reactors out there using (both HEU
> & LEU) fuel with another digit in front of your 3 and 5% enrichment....
True, but they are rare. While some reactors use very highly enriched uranium (nuclear submarines use close to weapons-quality uranium for long runs betwen refuelings) most reactors use low enrichment uranium. PWR's and BWR's (the type used in the US, light-water reactors) use 3-5% enrichment levels. Interestingly, CANDU reactors (primarily found in Canada) can use natural uranium, with 'enrichment' levels below 1%.
It is easier to build reactors with more highly enriched fuel, and thus most research reactors (and some military reactors, as mentioned above) use higher enrichment fuel. Commercial power reactors use the lowest possible enrichment because highly enriched uranium is a massive security threat. You can't build a bomb with 3% enriched uranium, but you can with 50% enriched uranium.
>Am I missing the point, or has Mo fuel finally stopped playing cards
>with the easter bunny???
You mean MOX? Reprocessed fuel of that sort has been a political hot potato for some time. Some think it increases the odds of nuclear proliferation, and thus are against it. Personally I think it's a great use for degraded weapons-quality plutonium.
billvon 2,438
I won't go into a long exposition on this (some of you are thinking "thank god".) I just wanted to hit two points:
1. Think of DU like lead. If lead is formed into a battery plate, or a SCUBA weight, it isn't very dangerous as long as you take even precursory precautions (like not eating it, washing your hands after you handle it etc.) I've worked with lead solder (lead/tin actually) for decades now with no problems.
If it is burned, atomized or otherwise aerosolized or dissolved, it can become very toxic. Think of kids eating lead paint chips, which contain lead oxide/sulfate/carbonate dissolved in a base. This is a big deal on battlefields because DU munitions are often designed to burn on impact; this aerosolizes and oxidizes the DU, and it is very easily inhaled or ingested after that happens.
2. The radioactivity of DU isn't a big concern (as long as, like I mentioned above, basic precautions are taken to not eat/breathe it in.) Most DU is less than .2% U-235, which is the more dangerous stuff. Pure DU gives off radiation that is so close to background that it's not a big deal.
However, DU that comes from sources other than natural uranium (like spent reactor fuel) is VERY dangerous radiologically because it contains other isotopes created by irradiation of the fuel. Fortunately that stuff usually isn't used to make DU munitions.
1. Think of DU like lead. If lead is formed into a battery plate, or a SCUBA weight, it isn't very dangerous as long as you take even precursory precautions (like not eating it, washing your hands after you handle it etc.) I've worked with lead solder (lead/tin actually) for decades now with no problems.
If it is burned, atomized or otherwise aerosolized or dissolved, it can become very toxic. Think of kids eating lead paint chips, which contain lead oxide/sulfate/carbonate dissolved in a base. This is a big deal on battlefields because DU munitions are often designed to burn on impact; this aerosolizes and oxidizes the DU, and it is very easily inhaled or ingested after that happens.
2. The radioactivity of DU isn't a big concern (as long as, like I mentioned above, basic precautions are taken to not eat/breathe it in.) Most DU is less than .2% U-235, which is the more dangerous stuff. Pure DU gives off radiation that is so close to background that it's not a big deal.
However, DU that comes from sources other than natural uranium (like spent reactor fuel) is VERY dangerous radiologically because it contains other isotopes created by irradiation of the fuel. Fortunately that stuff usually isn't used to make DU munitions.
skygeek 0
I want to thank every one for the replies here. I feel alittle better about it but still praying for my cousin.
Welcome to the New World Order. Expect no Mercy.
Welcome to the New World Order. Expect no Mercy.
Preface: i dont claim to be a specialist or expert on the subject, but i have done extensive research or others findings and results for various reasons
Anyways, DU is most often rendered from the waste of enriching natural uranium, it is the porting of Uranium that isnt radioactive (or atleast has a much lower occurance of the radioactive isotope), contrary as to what was said earlier there is such thing as non radio active uranium, it is just that any sample of uranium is likely to contain both radio active and non radioactive isotopes, with the majority being non-radioactive.
HEU (highly enriched uranium) is usuually cansidered to be a sample with higher than 5% of the total being the radioactive isotope, this is usually reserved as weapons grade uranium, it is a long expensive process to enrich uranium to this extent
EU (enriched uranium) is uranium that has undergone the enrichment process but contains less that or equal to 5% of the radioactive isotope, most commonly used in nuclear reactors and in the so-called dirty bombs (aka briefcase bombs, which are far different than the nuclear weapons as we think of them, they simply spread a radioactive material over a large area, usually about 1-4 city blocks, rendering that and the surrounding areas hazardous.)
DU (depleted uranium) commonly caries "trace" ammounts of the radioactive isotope. the government, as far as i know, has never released numbers, but many different studies have their own numbers that range a great deal.
the short story is that if the DU tipped bullets are low enough in the radioactive isotope the alpha and beta particles that are emitted are far to few to cause real damage, especially when they are emmited in a small area and often end up lodged in a tank (which neither alpha or beta particles could escape, not even the scary gamma radiation would penetrate a tanks shell). If the numbers are high enough and the DU bullet lands in a fairly heavily populated area such as a house or city square, then some problems could be found, but would not be apparent for a couple years considering the low dosage per unit time that anyone would be picking up. even then the dispercement of the particles happens so rapidly the chances of it causeing a problem are slim to none.
as for the increase in rates of cancer, there are many possible factors. Causes for cancer have been recorded in different studies ranging from increased stress to radioactive fallout. Personally if i were to guess the cause of increased rates of cancer i would go with the carcinogens that are release during the explosions of different ordinances, and the increased dust inhalation (causes irritation of the lung tissue, which is a proven cause of cancer) due to the explosions and warfare (farfetched but scientificly proven).
In summation of most of my research, the "horror" of DU bullets is caused by the stigma associated with anything uranium (eventhough people didnt mind when they had uranium in different paints, natural urainum infact) and too many factors would hinder any real threat (esp when weighed against their neccesity and effectiveness).
Just to sorta hit this home in air beta particles are dispersed in approx 100 ft. alpha particles are disperced in approx 3 feet. Beta particles can penetrate approx 5mm of human tissue, and alpha particles cant penetrate the top 2 layers of your skin. over 70% of DU bullets are recovered and reused from inside destroyed tank shells, and the other 30% are unlikely to be fired into an area that has any substantial population density, all of which minimized the danger to virtually Nil. If you wanna ask me anything else or discuss it anymore, give me a PM and i can direct you to some great legal studies and scientific studies regarding DU use.
Anyways, DU is most often rendered from the waste of enriching natural uranium, it is the porting of Uranium that isnt radioactive (or atleast has a much lower occurance of the radioactive isotope), contrary as to what was said earlier there is such thing as non radio active uranium, it is just that any sample of uranium is likely to contain both radio active and non radioactive isotopes, with the majority being non-radioactive.
HEU (highly enriched uranium) is usuually cansidered to be a sample with higher than 5% of the total being the radioactive isotope, this is usually reserved as weapons grade uranium, it is a long expensive process to enrich uranium to this extent
EU (enriched uranium) is uranium that has undergone the enrichment process but contains less that or equal to 5% of the radioactive isotope, most commonly used in nuclear reactors and in the so-called dirty bombs (aka briefcase bombs, which are far different than the nuclear weapons as we think of them, they simply spread a radioactive material over a large area, usually about 1-4 city blocks, rendering that and the surrounding areas hazardous.)
DU (depleted uranium) commonly caries "trace" ammounts of the radioactive isotope. the government, as far as i know, has never released numbers, but many different studies have their own numbers that range a great deal.
the short story is that if the DU tipped bullets are low enough in the radioactive isotope the alpha and beta particles that are emitted are far to few to cause real damage, especially when they are emmited in a small area and often end up lodged in a tank (which neither alpha or beta particles could escape, not even the scary gamma radiation would penetrate a tanks shell). If the numbers are high enough and the DU bullet lands in a fairly heavily populated area such as a house or city square, then some problems could be found, but would not be apparent for a couple years considering the low dosage per unit time that anyone would be picking up. even then the dispercement of the particles happens so rapidly the chances of it causeing a problem are slim to none.
as for the increase in rates of cancer, there are many possible factors. Causes for cancer have been recorded in different studies ranging from increased stress to radioactive fallout. Personally if i were to guess the cause of increased rates of cancer i would go with the carcinogens that are release during the explosions of different ordinances, and the increased dust inhalation (causes irritation of the lung tissue, which is a proven cause of cancer) due to the explosions and warfare (farfetched but scientificly proven).
In summation of most of my research, the "horror" of DU bullets is caused by the stigma associated with anything uranium (eventhough people didnt mind when they had uranium in different paints, natural urainum infact) and too many factors would hinder any real threat (esp when weighed against their neccesity and effectiveness).
Just to sorta hit this home in air beta particles are dispersed in approx 100 ft. alpha particles are disperced in approx 3 feet. Beta particles can penetrate approx 5mm of human tissue, and alpha particles cant penetrate the top 2 layers of your skin. over 70% of DU bullets are recovered and reused from inside destroyed tank shells, and the other 30% are unlikely to be fired into an area that has any substantial population density, all of which minimized the danger to virtually Nil. If you wanna ask me anything else or discuss it anymore, give me a PM and i can direct you to some great legal studies and scientific studies regarding DU use.
Richards 0
QuoteI don't know jack about D.U., but this sounds interesting. How does it burn them alive? Does D.U. have incindiary properties? I really don't know so please tell me how this works.
Richards
Uranium burns spontaneously in air if finely powdered (pyrophoric). A round hitting armor will disintegrate into fine enough particles to catch fire. So yes, it does have incendiary properties under those conditions.
Thanks for the reply. I have heard many discussions about DU over the years, but I never really understood it well enough to have a strong opinion.
Cheers,
Richards
My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.
kallend 1,653
But if you inhale the dust it's the alphas that do the damage to your lungs. And a DU round hitting armor creates a lot of UO2 dust.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Quotecontrary as to what was said earlier there is such thing as non radio active uranium, it is just that any sample of uranium is likely to contain both radio active and non radioactive isotopes, with the majority being non-radioactive.
Please list a stable isotope of U. Note that a very long half-life is not the same as stable.
Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)
(drink Mountain Dew)
kallend 1,653
QuoteQuotecontrary as to what was said earlier there is such thing as non radio active uranium, it is just that any sample of uranium is likely to contain both radio active and non radioactive isotopes, with the majority being non-radioactive.
Please list a stable isotope of U. Note that a very long half-life is not the same as stable.
Blues,
Dave
You're in for a long wait.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
I don't know jack about D.U., but this sounds interesting. How does it burn them alive? Does D.U. have incindiary properties? I really don't know so please tell me how this works.
Richards
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