I just puked

[Nightingale 0]

It did get straightened out eventually, but it took months, and a congressional inquiry to do it. I wonder what would have happened if I hadn't known that I could contact my congressman for assistance.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Call your Senator...unfortunately I believe they will do nothing at all on your behalf so later on they can include you as one of those whom the patriot act has harmed.

You see there is political capital in having victims.

I just read your last post...who actually did help you?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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>It hasn't effected me so I have nothing t ocompare . . .

OK, here's an example.

You trigger some flag in a computer somewhere, because you visited the UK at just the right time or something. They start checking you out. They pull your credit card and notice that you once bought some porn. That sits in your government file for a while. Then you get a book at the library on nuclear power for a school project. Now they start getting more interested. Then they find out you went to a peace rally.

A few more coincidences, and now you're on the no-fly list, a list where every flight you want to take has to be approved by a DHS person. Want to know how you got on it? Sorry, that's classified. Want to get off it? You can't, until you meet their criteria. What is the criteria? Well, we can't tell you, of course, because the terrorists really want to get off the list, too. Why are you asking, again? And why do you want to go back to the UK? Can you prove you have friends there? What are their numbers and addresses - just so we can be sure?

And this HAS happened. Political activists are often put on the no-fly list because they are "dissidents" - and the patriot act allows that to happen.

If you wait until this happens to YOU, it will be too late to do anything about it. Because then you are a potential threat - and the more noise you make, the greater your threat becomes, and you're basically screwed.

Would you post a link or the specifics of the incident you spoke of here please?

While my personal experience with the INS isn't as radical as Bill mentioned in his theoretical scenario. It's not as far fetched as you may think. In December of 2004 I showed up to apply for a new work visa and certain INS red flags went off and the INS agent really gave me a hard time and threatened to put a permanent ban on me towards being in the USA. I was unemployed for less than 30 days prior to this work visa application and the agent didn't like the fact that I still had ties to the US (they wanted me to leave the USA within 10 days of losing the job). Plus other red flags came up. I'm a foreign trained private pilot (I know the FBI has investigated me in the past, my flight club even told me about their investigations soon after 9-11 mentioning certain things that I purchased with my credit cards) and they the INS knew about some of my other activities state side that you'd never expect them to know and they hassled me about them. In the end, after pleading my case with a supervisor I was given the work visa (I really think they were just on their own small penis power trip trying to make me sweat ... and they were successful ... I was sweating that day). But the agent in a nasty way told me that he was adding notes to my file and that if I was ever caught violating certain terms again that I would be permanently banned. Contrary to how negatively you and others may think about me (because I'm a foreigner and not on board with your beloved policies of GWB and his crownies), I'm no fucking criminal. But the INS sure treated me like I was. So when the entire company that I was working at (the one I just got the visa for) went out of business last April, I wasted no time, obtained a visitors visa (ensuring that I didn't have to leave the country within 10 days) and left the country once the six month visitors visa expired in October. Of course I've yet to try and re-enter the US since my departure and who knows what's waiting for me at the border. But I left the country to hopefully not fuck myself for future work/visiting opportunities. Time will tell I guess.

Anyway, as I said my experience isn't as radical as Bill's scenario. But it is real (I wouldn't be back in Canada if it wasn't). So don't think this is just talk. It's a reality which is just around the corner if it's not already here. Your government is gathering information about you as we speak and thanks to GWB and his beloved Patriot Act, they have given themselves the power to do anything they want to their own citizens. Of course some people still choose to ignore what's been going on in Guantanamo Bay with the feds giving themselves the power to hold and torture people indefinitely without ever charging them with a crime. But that's okay right. The American federal government would never hurt their own citizens now would they? Now let's have some apple pie and say the pledge.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Nightingale 0]

Congressman Gary Miller, 42nd District. I never bothered calling the senators, because the congressmen are the ones that usually deal with messes like this. There's a lot more congressmen than there are senators, so things usually get done faster if you go through the congressman.

[akarunway 1]

Quote

>It hasn't effected me so I have nothing t ocompare . . .

OK, here's an example.

You trigger some flag in a computer somewhere, because you visited the UK at just the right time or something. They start checking you out. They pull your credit card and notice that you once bought some porn. That sits in your government file for a while. Then you get a book at the library on nuclear power for a school project. Now they start getting more interested. Then they find out you went to a peace rally.

A few more coincidences, and now you're on the no-fly list, a list where every flight you want to take has to be approved by a DHS person. Want to know how you got on it? Sorry, that's classified. Want to get off it? You can't, until you meet their criteria. What is the criteria? Well, we can't tell you, of course, because the terrorists really want to get off the list, too. Why are you asking, again? And why do you want to go back to the UK? Can you prove you have friends there? What are their numbers and addresses - just so we can be sure?

And this HAS happened. Political activists are often put on the no-fly list because they are "dissidents" - and the patriot act allows that to happen.

If you wait until this happens to YOU, it will be too late to do anything about it. Because then you are a potential threat - and the more noise you make, the greater your threat becomes, and you're basically screwed.

AND I WAS PUT ON A NO FLY LIST LAST YR. FOR A REASON THEY WOULD NOT TELL ME. AND I'M ALWAYS ALWAYS OF SPECIAL INTEREST TO THE TSA. NEVER HAD A FELONY IN MY LIFE. MINOR BS YRS AGO. WHAT'S UP W THAT. VEE NEED TO SEE YOUR PAPERS. Sorry bout the capslock

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[akarunway 1]

I saw the fucktards speech and I go to the white house website and leave emails for the asshole once in awhile. I'd like to read the bill for myself in it's entirety not some brief of it. Skewed I'm sure

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[nanook 1]

You can go online to the Thomas library and just browse the various bills being presented.

Here's an interesting bill:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:S.2296.IS:

and in case it doesn't work:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s109-2296

It was referred to Govt affairs and Homeland Security, but still an interesting read

_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[akarunway 1]

I have to go see this one. Anybody in L.A. go yet? ___________________________
After his incandescent plays about the death penalty ("The Exonerated") and the media in Iraq ("Embedded"), it seemed inevitable that actor-writer-director Tim Robbins would continue to fearlessly produce politically charged theater.

In his newest production by Los Angeles' Actors' Gang ensemble, a corrosive play based on George Orwell's novel "1984" and adapted by Michael Gene Sullivan, director of the San Francisco Mime Troupe, Big Brother is here and torture is us.

The Actors' Gang show differs markedly from previous Orwell adaptations in that Sullivan and Robbins focus on the book within the novel, written by Big Brother's enemy No. 1, Goldstein, who argues that capitalism uses continual warfare as a means of economic exploitation and control.

"That's essential to this production," says Robbins, who directs the play. "That's where the meat is for me, because it rings so true now." Writing in 1948, Robbins points out, Orwell was not looking at the future, but "reflecting on the world around him … In fact, what he contends is that what war has really become is a way to keep the elite minority in power and to deplete the resources of the economies in the post-industrial age."

Indeed, the Actors' Gang production reveals Big Brother to be an elite minority, controlling and exploiting the masses through perpetual warfare. (Wasn't it just the other day that Rumsfeld called the war on terrorism "the long war," and the Bush administration asked Congress to appropriate $439 billion for next year's defense budget?)

Speaking of government control, Robbins marvels at how Orwell the novelist did not allow Big Brother's omnipotence to concern itself with the downtrodden majority. "Brilliant how prescient he was. When you reread the book, there's a passage where they don't care about 85 percent of the people who are proles -- they're so stupefied by poverty and overwork, and pacified by entertainment and by lotteries, that they're never going to be a problem … What Big Brother has to monitor and be concerned with is the other 15 percent of people who are in the upper rungs of society."

During a recent performance of the play, which opened Feb. 11 and runs through April 8, the audience appeared both entertained and disturbed by the parallels with current events: a national security apparatus eavesdropping on American citizens; the military's use of torture in prisons in Afghanistan, Iraq and Guantanamo; and "rendition" -- the Bush administration's euphemism for kidnapping suspected terrorists and sending them off to regimes in Syria, Egypt or Saudi Arabia for months, even years, of interrogation.

Robbins' production is stark and something of a departure, the director feels, from the company's usually buoyant, satirical performances.

"This is not so much satire," he points out, "as it is a drama, and we think we found the humor in it." Humor in a hapless Winston Smith, who is tortured for nearly two hours onstage? No one said it wouldn't be twisted: ear-splitting music and electrodes are part of the interrogation arsenal; the play's humor, such as it is, comes unexpectedly and is short-lived.

Telescreens, naturally, are everywhere.

Much about this theatrical "1984" feels ominously real -- nothing like the 1984 Michael Radford film that depicted a totalitarian futuristic society. Robbins is planning his own film version, to be shot in New York, "essentially the way it looks now. No big special effects, no futuristic imaginings; just the way it is."

"It's more about the mind and self-censorship," he continues. "Orwell writes about acquired self-censorship, the idea that Big Brother is present if you allow him to be present. There are many people living in fear, and that's really what he was writing about -- totalitarianism of the mind."

Robbins balks when asked about critics who accuse him of agitprop. "It seems that anytime someone questions something from the left, or from a progressive point of view, there is an immediate rush to label it 'political,' as a way I think to marginalize it as a work of art. I find that offensive."

Robbins has stuck his neck out repeatedly over the years, with repercussions for both himself and his family -- he has two children with actor and activist Susan Sarandon; when the couple spoke out against the Iraq war, they received death threats and had major public appearances cancelled.

Robbins accuses the entertainment industry of being far more conservative than we are led to believe. "I'll bring up the most crucial time in the last ten years, right before the Iraq war; Hollywood was essentially silent about that. I had many people tell me 'Now's not the time to protest.' Well, if now's not the fucking time, when is the time?"

But exercising his First Amendment rights, Robbins insists, has not hurt his career. "It doesn't hurt you to use your freedom," he says, "and if it does, then why have freedom? They told me before the first Iraq war, 'Don't go down to Washington and protest; it's going to hurt your career.' And the next two years brought Bob Roberts and The Player, and afterwards Shawshank Redemption and Hudsucker Proxy; after this war I won an Oscar for Mystic River.

Doublethink and Newspeak are still prominent features of Robbins' 1984, and never has this nightmare had more resonance than today, when the neo-conservative agenda of the Bush administration has capitalized on fear-mongering and division as a form of mass control. Robbins argues that throughout the Reagan-Bush years, through Clinton and until today, right-wing talk radio and other media have waged an effective campaign against the left and the Democratic party, while fostering hatred of Americans by Americans.

"Well, now they've got it all," he says. "They've got the executive, they've got the Congress, they've got the judicial for the most part, and things are worse. And sooner or later, if Joe Sixpack doesn't figure this out, that he's been lied to for the past 25 years …"

"I'm not the enemy," Robbins says. "I've been advocating for the American worker, for peace and justice. That's not the enemy. The enemy is people who make you believe that hatred is necessary in this country, because all your hatred is doing is buoying up and keeping in power people who do not have your best interests at heart, people who will not represent you in Washington. They will close down your factories and sell off the jobs to the highest bidder in China. How un-American is that? But somehow these people are aligned with God and country, and this illusion has been sold for the past 25 years. It's very clever, very effective propaganda."

If today's citizenry lack a sufficient culture of dissent, Robbins says, it may be the result of too much comfort. "People believe they're comfortable … We're locked into our telescreens and we believe; we buy into the culture of entertainment and distraction and advertisement."

Few celebrities in Robbins' position of power are making themselves heard beyond the pale of mass entertainment. With the recent exception of George Clooney, the list of progressive entertainers willing to speak out publicly is still painfully short.

Could the Bush administration be spying on outspoken Americans with a liberal agenda?

Says Robbins, "Certainly I think the reason they are being so secretive about [wire-tapping] is they've fallen into that Nixonian trap. They're so paranoid about their own lies and deceptions that they feel like they have to monitor their opposition."

If "1984" is 2006, and torture is what Americans do to extract information from the enemy, Robbins still refuses to play his cards close to the vest, to avoid Big Brother's scrutiny. The government may be watching him, he says, but "paranoia is a sign that you're losing the battle."
__

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[Hawkins121 0]

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Quote

But there is a price for our freedom

Apparently the cost is freedom itself.

Its impossible to maintain both security and freedom...

What you will have to realize is to make the country more secure we will have to give up some freedom.

How much freedom are you willing to give up for security?

If you say none you are naive.

[nanook 1]

Good for Tim Robbins for trying to save us, the common man, from a George Orwell plot. We're Saved!!

Where was he when the "Thetans" were giving us trouble? the common man had to rely on Tom Cruise for that. Guess one picks his battles.

_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[narcimund 0]

Quote

What you will have to realize is to make the country more secure we will have to give up some freedom.

It's refreshing to see it spelled out honestly for once.

I'm reminded of Benjamin Franklin:

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They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, do not deserve and shall not have either.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[Hawkins121 0]

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Quote

What you will have to realize is to make the country more secure we will have to give up some freedom.

It's refreshing to see it spelled out honestly for once.

I'm reminded of Benjamin Franklin:

Quote

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, do not deserve and shall not have either.

That quote makes me all warm and fuzzy but Ben Franklin didnt have to worry about Religous fanatics ramming planes into skyscrapers.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

Quote

What you will have to realize is to make the country more secure we will have to give up some freedom.

It's refreshing to see it spelled out honestly for once.

I'm reminded of Benjamin Franklin:

Quote

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, do not deserve and shall not have either.

So if someone was holding a gun to your head and demanding you enter a jail cell or be shot, you'd say "go ahead and kill me?"

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

That quote makes me all warm and fuzzy but Ben Franklin didnt have to worry about Religous fanatics ramming planes into skyscrapers.

Nor did he need to worry about a religious president who's God talks to him in his sleep and tells him that he needs to invade a foreign country in order to rid them of their WMD (despite the fact that this country already got rid of their WMD) which has created more of these suicidal religious fanatics than there were three years ago.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[narcimund 0]

Quote

That quote makes me all warm and fuzzy but Ben Franklin didnt have to worry about Religous fanatics ramming planes into skyscrapers.

You're right. There were no significant military challenges in the middle to late 1700s. Certainly nothing so close to home!

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[Rebecca 0]

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That quote makes me all warm and fuzzy but Ben Franklin didnt have to worry about Religous fanatics ramming planes into skyscrapers.

You're right. There were no significant military challenges in the middle to late 1700s. Certainly nothing so close to home!

Yeah, they all ran around slapping each other with gloves...

"Take THAT!"

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[wmw999 2,122]

They had neither airplanes nor skyscrapers. That means that it was nothing like now, and I'm sure that BF would have changed his mind had the "terrorists" not looked just like him.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[narcimund 0]

Quote

So if someone was holding a gun to your head and demanding you enter a jail cell or be shot, you'd say "go ahead and kill me?"

That depends. Is it an essential liberty? Are we talking about a week in jail (I don't have anything essential going on next week) or a lifetime?

I do not believe any of the government impositions on individual freedom are temporary. Quite the opposite. I expect we'll see more and more of them ... more and more ... little ones imposed one at a time so anyone who complains seems kooky to those with short memories ...

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[SpeedRacer 1]

Quote

The Actors' Gang show differs markedly from previous Orwell adaptations in that Sullivan and Robbins focus on the book within the novel, written by Big Brother's enemy No. 1, Goldstein, who argues that capitalism uses continual warfare as a means of economic exploitation and control.

This is the part I don't get. It's a big powerful all-controlling government that does this, not "capitalism."

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

I'd like to read the bill for myself in it's entirety not some brief of it. Skewed I'm sure

I provided that link in message #15. Pay attention. And quit jumping to conclusions before you've seen the facts.

[billvon 2,400]

>What you will have to realize is to make the country more secure
>we will have to give up some freedom.

In other words - if people are scared enough, they will give up the freedom that people have fought and died for.

Freedom is scary. It's scary that we have an open society where people can own guns, come and go as they please, and do what they please. It means criminals can commit crimes before they are caught. It means you have choices as to what you do, where you go and how you live. It's scary, but most people prefer it to the alternative.

To live in a free society, you have to be brave. You have to accept that someone might try to hurt you, but realize that the freedom you love is worth the risk. You have to realize that here in the US, it is you who keeps you and your family safe, not the government, and live your life accordingly. In other words, take responsibility for yourself so that others do not try to.

For the most part, the people in the US like that freedom that their forefathers gave them. Occasionally something will scare them, and manipulative politicians will use that fear to take liberties away from them to increase their power. For the most part, though, it all works out in the end. People realize that freedom is worth saving, and reject the attempts of politicians who would "protect" us from freedom.

[JohnRich 4]

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Freedom is scary. It's scary that we have an open society where people can own guns, come and go as they please, and do what they please...

Bravo! That was beautiful, billvon. Thanks for ending the week with a refreshing and most excellent message.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Freedom is scary. It's scary that we have an open society where people can own guns, come and go as they please, and do what they please...

Bravo! That was beautiful, billvon. Thanks for ending the week with a refreshing and most excellent message.

Yes John but you neglect to leave this part of Bill's post out which helps back up your position:

Quote

You have to realize that here in the US, it is you who keeps you and your family safe, not the government, and live your life accordingly. In other words, take responsibility for yourself so that others do not try to.

Personally I thought it was a well balanced post by Mr Bill.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[pirana 0]

Soupy, chunky, pasty - or a nice medley.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Jimbo 0]

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In other words, take responsibility for yourself so that others do not try to.

Amen.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.