Execution of elderly man in California

[lawrocket 3]

Clarence Ray Allen will turn 76 years old the day before his schedule execution - January 17, 2006. Poor Mr. Allen is deaf, blind and wheelchair-bound, and suffers from diabetes.

he was only later sentenced to death in 1982, a full 8 years after being given life in prison with possibility of parol in 1977. He was originally scheduled for execution in January, 1988, but the moth previous to that it was delayed by the Caifornia Supreme Court, and then by a federal court.

Can anyone offer an explanation as to why the state would want to execute a man who already has been in prison for so long? He's already behind bars, which means he can't have anyone else killed, right?

And actually, can anyone explain why nobody seems interested in protesting his death? I mean, Tookie got plenty of support.

What is going on here?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[RhondaLea 3]

I'd like to know what he did.

I don't really care how old he is or what his health is like.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[lawrocket 3]

What does what he did have to do with anything?

Edited to add: Okay. the guy was running a robbery ring from his security company. Way back when in 1974, he knocked off a market. His son's girlfriend, then 17 years old, had a big mouth and so he ordered her to be killed. They never found her weighted down body. But that was in 1974, when he was a naive kid of about 44. He was given life with the possibility of parol.

Apparently, he got people upset when he ordered a hit on teh witnesses that put him in jail. He did it from jail, too, which means that the correctional system looked stupid. So the big-mouthed rat witness was capped, along with a couple of other bystander coworkers and two more wounded.

He's claimed discrimination because he has American Indiran heritage. He's said he suffered from sleepign sickness as a kid. His current appeal is that he will discriminated against by taking a trip to the death chamber in violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act.

So he killed some people. Big deal. People die every day. Well, strike that. There's no proof he actually killed anybody, only that he had them killed, and only three of those people he had killed were orchestrated from prison.

So, considering that he's old, blind, deaf, and wheelchair-bound, why would the state want to put a poor old man to death who hasn't orchestrated any assassinations from prison in 25 years that anyone has opened their big fat mouths about?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Lindsey 0]

What does whether he's deaf or blind or with diabetes have to do with anything??? Or old...almost forgot that one!

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[yamtx73 0]

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What does what he did have to do with anything?

Actually, the crime he was convicted of has alot to do with it. Normally the death penalty is reserved for those who have commited multiple homicides or have killed a cop...

The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers...

[skydyvr 0]

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He's already behind bars, which means he can't have anyone else killed, right?

You probably already know this, but he ordered three people killed while he was behind bars. I must've missed what you meant by the statement above.

. . =(_8^(1)

[artistcalledian 0]

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What does what he did have to do with anything?

correct me if i'm wrong... but doesn't it have to do with what punishment he must suffer?

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[lawrocket 3]

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What does what he did have to do with anything?

correct me if i'm wrong... but doesn't it have to do with what punishment he must suffer?

But he's old and frail. Maybe somebody nominated him for a Nobel Peace Prize. It's possible.

Maybe he taught classes on business ethics in the past to teach young hoods how to be successful businessmen.

We've all seen in the past month that what a person does to deserve the death penalty shouldn't come into consideration when they haven't done anything particularly grisly in 25 years.

Why is this poor, blind, deaf man any different? In fact, isn't he more pathetic than Tookie, or even a Karla Faye Tucker?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[sundevil777 93]

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he was only later sentenced to death in 1982, a full 8 years after being given life in prison with possibility of parol in 1977.

So is it right that he was convicted and sentenced for new crimes? That is a bit different than you implied.

He probably isn't getting much attention because he is a white mobster, is that correct? Plus he may not have done anything to redeem himself while in prison.

In theory, I support the death penalty. However, in the real world of today, I think it is not worth the effort/resources it takes, it is too much of a distraction from more important things. I certainly wouldn't support if for those that want to stop their appeals - to just get it over with. Those should definitely be left to stay in jail till they die.

Many people are against the death penalty because it supposedly not a useful deterrent. Even if you don't argue that point, I think the deterrence value should not be very important for those that do support it - punishment fitting the crime should be more important. But again, I think it is worse to be in jail until you die, and it is just not worth the fight over it nowadays.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[artistcalledian 0]

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What does what he did have to do with anything?

correct me if i'm wrong... but doesn't it have to do with what punishment he must suffer?

But he's old and frail. Maybe somebody nominated him for a Nobel Peace Prize. It's possible.

Maybe he taught classes on business ethics in the past to teach young hoods how to be successful businessmen.

We've all seen in the past month that what a person does to deserve the death penalty shouldn't come into consideration when they haven't done anything particularly grisly in 25 years.

Why is this poor, blind, deaf man any different? In fact, isn't he more pathetic than Tookie, or even a Karla Faye Tucker?

he's not a bad man really, lets all get a bleeding heart and conveniently forget what he did in the past...hey, he could even write a few childrens books or something

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[micro 0]

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He's already behind bars, which means he can't have anyone else killed, right?

You probably already know this, but he ordered three people killed while he was behind bars. I must've missed what you meant by the statement above.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner. The death penalty can be justified if we cannot guarantee society's safety by imprisoning the convict.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[yamtx73 0]

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He's already behind bars, which means he can't have anyone else killed, right?

You probably already know this, but he ordered three people killed while he was behind bars. I must've missed what you meant by the statement above.

Ok, now assuming he was already serving a life sentence when this allegedly happened he would have been convicted for these crimes as well which would be the reason for the death sentence. Also assuming he spent the past 20 years trying to appeal the convictions and apparently failing it's now time for him to pay his debt.
Would it make any difference if he was 30 years old and healthy? No, he was given a sentence and now must serve it accordingly.

The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers...

[sundevil777 93]

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The death penalty can be justified if we cannot guarantee society's safety by imprisoning the convict.

Quite right. However many such people that can effectively run their criminal organizations, including ordering executions, are in jail for crimes that are not capital offenses.

I think such criminals should be held with no outside contact allowed. All contact with prison officials and guards should be monitored and recorded so that guards could not be the conduit for outside contact. This would be expensive, but justified I think. It probably would be found to be unconstitutional.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[RhondaLea 3]

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So, considering that he's old, blind, deaf, and wheelchair-bound, why would the state want to put a poor old man to death who hasn't orchestrated any assassinations from prison in 25 years that anyone has opened their big fat mouths about?

You are such a shit-stirrer.

If you had warned me, I wouldn't have posted.

Sheesh.

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[artistcalledian 0]

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So, considering that he's old, blind, deaf, and wheelchair-bound, why would the state want to put a poor old man to death who hasn't orchestrated any assassinations from prison in 25 years that anyone has opened their big fat mouths about?

You are such a shit-stirrer.

If you had warned me, I wouldn't have posted.

Sheesh.

i think you'll find the correct phase... "troll"

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[Bdog 0]

"Can anyone offer an explanation as to why the state would want to execute a man who already has been in prison for so long? He's already behind bars, which means he can't have anyone else killed, right?"

He should of been executed long ago

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---Future Darwin Award recipient-

[yamtx73 0]

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"Can anyone offer an explanation as to why the state would want to execute a man who already has been in prison for so long? He's already behind bars, which means he can't have anyone else killed, right?"

He should of been executed long ago

Clarence Ray Allen facts:
Convicted of the murder of a young woman in 1974, sentenced to life in prison.
Convicted in 1982 for ordering the murders of 3 individuals while serving his life sentence in Folsum prison. Billy Hamilton, the person who actually commited the murders also received the death sentence.
In September 2005 the 9th Circut Court of Appeals denied his request for relief. In October 2005 the U.S. Supreme Court also denied his request for relief.
He has run out of appeals over the last 24 years of incarceration

The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers...

[lawrocket 3]

I suppose that it could be trolling. Let's get to the point that I'm sure I made.

Rhonda Lea called it "shit stirring." yet, it's only "shit stirring" because I myself personally believe that if there was ever a case to be made for swift capital punishment, this is it.

For some reason, there do not seem to be any organized groups protesting this. I compare this a lot to Tookie's execution. Much of this occurred in the same timeframe. Lots of people argued that because of what has happened since Tookie was sentenced to die, he should be granted clemency.

These arguments apply just as much to Allen as they do to Williams. Anybody who thought the execution of Williams should have been called off is being intellectually dishonest for failing to say that the execution of Allen is wrong. Sure, Tookie did some good things once he was put away.

Stripped to its essential, those who supported clemency for Tookie stated that the reasons for their support were based upon what Tookie allegedly became. "Tookie can still do some good."

Do those same people fail to support Allen because he's deaf and blind and is fundamentally a waste of human life?

Do those people fail to support Allen because he was not the leader of a large organization?

Do those same people fail to support Allen because he has Native American heritage?

Does Allen lack the political reason for support that Tookie Williams had?

I'm seriously trying to reconcile in my mind why very few people seem to be publicly stating that the execution of Allen is wrong.

Either execution is right, or it is wrong. Unfortunately, I believe that the anti-execution side (of which I am actually a member) is trying to sweep this execution under the rug.

I myself have a hard time justifying no execution in his case. If my desire for a nationwide moratorium on executions was enacted, I think I'd probably be willing to grant an exception in this case. This guy's case is my nightmare of the 1/1000 killers going free being better than 1/1000 executed being innocent.

This guy was simply too evil, and probably still is.

Now, somebody please provide me some factual reasons why this guy should not be executed. Is he not a more pathetic guy than Tookie ever was? Should we be executing the evil version of Helen Keller?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[GTAVercetti 0]

I get it.

And I only read to the third post before replying. I get a gold star AND a cookie. mmmm, cookies.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[Andy9o8 0]

As you well know - counselor - there is no Statute of Limitations on murder in most, if not all, jurisdictions in the United States. (I guess I should preface the rest of what I say by noting that I'm generally opposed to capital punishment. No, folks, I don't care to debate it...). You also well know the concepts of mitigation and aggravating factors in sentencing guidelines. Further, one who causes a premeditated murder by command or contract is a guilty as the actual hand that caused the victim's death. And, of course, there can be no heat of passion in such circumstances; the premeditation is unquestionable and unequivocal. The fact that he managed to work the system and benefit from the lengthy appeal process until he was old and frail cannot possibly be a mitigating factor, and does not diminish the aggravating factors of (a) committing a murder after having already been convicted of a previous murder, (b) commission of multiple murders, (c) engaging in murder for hire, and (d) murder of witnesses. When was the last time you heard of WW2-era mass murderers being credited with age and infirmity as a mitigating factor just because they'd managed to abscond to Argentina for a few decades before they were finally put in their cages? Speaking of Argentina, deposed dictator Augusto Pinochet has been evading justice for his murders for a couple decades, and courts quite properly have refused to allow him to slide out of the defendant's dock because he managed to stay in power or on the lam until he became old and feeble. As I said, I'm (on balance) opposed to capital punishment, but I sure do acknowledge one thing: people who commit murder in early or middle adulthood and then manage to stay alive, even if in prison, until they experience the rotting of old age, have one benefit their victims will never enjoy: several additional decades of life. Sorry, but you're barking up the wrong tree with this one.

[GTAVercetti 0]

see previous post.

You DON'T get it.

But that's okay.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[likearock 1]

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Apparently, he got people upset when he ordered a hit on teh witnesses that put him in jail. He did it from jail, too, which means that the correctional system looked stupid.

There's enough of a reason for me. Witness intimidation is a huge threat to our rule of law. It must be dealt with severely.

Edited to add: BTW, I supported executing Tookie. But to my mind the fact that this guy tried to murder his witnesses makes him more deserving of the death penalty. So if you're looking for reasons why people might support one but not the other, that could be part of it.

[lawrocket 3]

Hey, I agree. Allen has spent more time alive on death row than all but one of his victims spent alive on earth. I know that part.

But still, in light of all of the arguments to keep Tookie alive, many of which are reflected and stated on this thread, why am I hearign only the sound of silence about Allen?

Even the first post in this thread looked at over 20 years of post-sentencing mitigating factors. Why such a huge difference?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Andy9o8 0]

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see previous post.

You DON'T get it.

But that's okay.

Well, in all fairness to me (which, of course, is the ultimate fairness), I started writing my post before LR posted his third post.
Whatever.

[RhondaLea 3]

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I suppose that it could be trolling. Let's get to the point that I'm sure I made.

Rhonda Lea called it "shit stirring." yet, it's only "shit stirring" because I myself personally believe that if there was ever a case to be made for swift capital punishment, this is it.

It was your method, not your point, that I was making reference to when I said "shit-stirring." I think there's a big difference between that and trolling.

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Now, somebody please provide me some factual reasons why this guy should not be executed. Is he not a more pathetic guy than Tookie ever was? Should we be executing the evil version of Helen Keller?

If they need someone to administer the drug, I'm in.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb