Why is mine rescue equipment so crappy

[sundevil777 94]

I heard that the rescuers could only go in for 4 hours at a time because that is all the air tanks could accomodate.

Pretty crappy that they can't think of some way for them to get more of a supply. There are so many ways to imagine getting a longer term air supply to a group of rescuers.

And all the waiting that they did before seriously trying to get far into the mine, didn't change a thing from what I can tell. They spent a long time to confirm the air was crappy, and it didn't change a thing except to allow the guys to slowly die, then they just went in to the mine where the crappy air was still crappy with their inadequate rescue equipment.

I'm probably being too harsh, but it just seems like so weak a response with such poor rescue aids, when it would seem so easy to do (provide longer term air supply to rescuers). I hope there is more to explain this than I know.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[EricTheRed 0]

The rescue equipment is what it is because of $$. It’s strictly overhead that will probably never get used. If it weren’t for strong MSHA regulations that require mine rescue teams, there wouldn’t even be any hope of rescue.
There is often a reason that regulations exist, and that enforcement of those regulations is necessary. It’s because sometimes people really don’t care if someone else get’s injured or killed, as long as they can make some $$ from it.

It is technically possible to have much better rescue equipment but it’s even cheaper to have properly functioning ventilation equipment and monitoring devices that prevent explosions in the first place.

BTW: I once worked for a company (Safety Coordinator) that killed a few people in a mine, fortunately not where I worked, but I know the co-workers of those that died. We had pretty damn good systems in place, but still not enough. I know that if it weren’t for quarterly inspections by MSHA, many more miners would die each year.


The report for that incident is here:

http://www.msha.gov/FATALS/1995/FTL95M06.HTM

illegible usually

[Remster 24]

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Pretty crappy that they can't think of some way for them to get more of a supply. There are so many ways to imagine getting a longer term air supply to a group of rescuers.

Such as? I am genuinely curious. I know and have used mine rescue gear, and I wouldnt call it crappy personnaly.

Mine rescue isnt as simple as going from point A to point B. Your need to asses roof and rock competence, build support in areas if needed, continually test the air for contaminants.

And even if you get the point B quick, you still just cant take down their barricades. Know what happens if the CO levels are high and you go in too quick? You just killed the survivors.

I'm not sure what the limitation of other respirator gear is, but remember this isnt scuba diving. You are carrying a 150lb stretcher with 3 other guys, your own gear, are travelling up and down inclines, ladders sometimes.

Remster

[billvon 2,406]

>Why is mine rescue equipment so crappy?

Probably for the same reason we don't carry two reserves on each jump. Or the same reason that airliners don't carry parachutes. Or DZ's don't have an EMT on staff, with basic medical gear (like a defibrillator, oxygen, a backboard, inflatable splints etc) always ready to go. Because it's a lot of cost to cover an unlikely event.

There are around 900 underground operating coal mines in the US. Add up all underground mines and you're above 1500. They generally run all year long. That's a lot of mines. And the accidents where rapid rescues can save lives are really pretty rare. If you've got the money to spare, it's probably better to spend it on reducing the _risk_ of accidents to begin with; most mine deaths are not from being trapped in a cave-in, but rather by being crushed to death, being killed in a fall, being run over/ground up by equipment etc. So preventing those sorts of injuries will save more miners per dollar.

[chuteless 1]

America can "talk" to a robot on mars, and they can't reach some men trapped a few feet under the surface of earth.

Something is wrong there.
Have they never heard of two way radios?

Bill Cole

[billvon 2,406]

>Have they never heard of two way radios?

They don't work too well through rock. An ELF radio would work better, but not many miners want to carry hundred foot antennas.

[chuteless 1]

Who says they have to carry one. It could be left at the dig site, and if the men moved to another location, it shouldnt be such a big job to move a radio....just to have it close for emergency.

I realize the average two way radio doesnt work well through rock, but my intent of that statement was to say, surely there must be some means of permanent communication, even if it has a wire to the surface....opr maybe more than one set of wires in case of breakage.

Something should be done....this banging on pipes is archaic.

Bill Cole

[Remster 24]

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America can "talk" to a robot on mars, and they can't reach some men trapped a few feet under the surface of earth.

Something is wrong there.
Have they never heard of two way radios?

Bill Cole

Yeah.. those work great through rock

The best method for underground comms is whats called Leaky Feeder cable. Its a coax cable that "leaks" its signal. Its pretty much a widely used system now. It still doenst have a long range between the cable running down the drifts and the radios, but its a good system.

Problem is that if the cable gets cut by... say... a roof collapse, everything downstream from that cut is cut off.

Remster

[chuteless 1]

so have two sets of cables with a protection system for them. That might cost the company $25.00 extra, but I would say well worth it.

Bill Cole

[billvon 2,406]

>surely there must be some means of permanent communication,
>even if it has a wire to the surface....opr maybe more than one set
>of wires in case of breakage.

Well, there are few options.

Wire is pretty bad, because all the wires are going to go through the tunnel they've cut in the rock. And if there's a collapse, it's going to get cut.

A seismic thumper is probably the best 'emergency communication' option, because it can send simple messages, be read with a seismograph (often available nearby) and can go through a lot of rock. Problems are:

1. They operate either via explosives or heavy masses. Explosives are somewhat dangerous in a mine that has just collapsed, and heavy masses are hard to carry.

2. What are they going to say? "We're still alive, and gee I wish I had brought some air tanks and water instead of this damn 500 pound thumper?"

3. Suppose no one sends anything on the thumper. Do they give up, or just assume it's broken and keep digging? Because if they just keep digging, then there's no reason to communicate anyway.

Increasing mine safety is a much better use of money IMO.

[billvon 2,406]

>so have two sets of cables with a protection system for them.

If you can come up with a $25.00 protection system that will protect a cable from an explosion and resultant rockfall, you are going to become a very wealthy man very quickly.

[Remster 24]

A roof collapse would still cut oof the cables in that area.

I dont think you have a great understanding of physical layouts of underground mines. They are not swiss cheese contraptions where you can get anywhere 5 differnet ways. You do try to build some redundancy in any of your systems, but most layouts make it impossible.

If you are at the face, chances are, there is only one way to get there.

Remster

[chuteless 1]

If they can put a robot on Mars, they can get a wire down a tunnel with sufficient protection.....

There is no such thing as "can't"


That is defeatism at its best

Bill Cole

[chuteless 1]

I have been in hundreds of mine shafts, and there MUST be a way to get a coaxial cable inserted in protective tuding down a hole.

Damn....whats the big problem?

There is ALWAYS a way, if one wants to work at it...they'll find it.

Bill Cole

[billvon 2,406]

>If they can put a robot on Mars, they can get a wire down a tunnel >with sufficient protection.....

I agree 100%. The Mars landers/rovers cost $820 million; I bet you could get a foolproof/collapse-proof communication system in a tunnel for a tenth of that cost!

>There is no such thing as "can't" . . . That is defeatism at its best

Not "can't" - more like "bad idea." It is better to spend the money you have on keeping miners alive than a communications system that can be used to talk to miners as they die.

[chuteless 1]

I think they should have communications with the miners, to give them "hope" and at the same time, devise a way to get them water continuously.

Dont be in such a hurry to write off some humans
that communications with them in a mine disaster would be a waste.


Bill Cole

[Remster 24]

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and there MUST be a way to get a coaxial cable inserted in protective tuding down a hole.

Then the signal wouldnt keak.

Bill: sure, you can drill a hole from surface to every face, at every round/slash that is taken. That may ad... say 1 million dollar to get the hole precisly enough to every round (you'd need a doamond drill for precission, and then again, it would take several tries to get it where you want). Say, at 300 tonne a round, for gold (and coal aint that expensive) for a typical undergroud grade of 3 g/t which is generous, you'd need gold to be at $14000 an ounce to make it economically feasable.


EDIT: PS, yes, its a very rough simplification of mining economics...

Remster

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

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I think they should have communications with the miners, to give them "hope" and at the same time, devise a way to get them water continuously.

Er, wouldn't they require breathable atmosphere more so than water Bill? In this most recent rockfall nobody died from dehydration from what I recall.


Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!

[billvon 2,406]

>Dont be in such a hurry to write off some humans . . .

Well, like I said, I think it's better to keep them alive to begin with than talk to them while they die. The most good for the most people and all that.

[chuteless 1]

I still say that a coaxial cable or maybe several could run down the shaft with adequate protection. If only one of them survives a cave in, they still have communications.

As for breatable air....right on, and that should be provided with a system of tanks located at the site...which could be on a moveable rig. There should be several at every site where men are.

If it costs too much.....too damn bad.

Save lives and stop spending money to buy Congressmen and useit for something worthwhile.

Bill Cole

[billvon 2,406]

>As for breatable air....right on, and that should be provided with a
>system of tanks located at the site...

And when a rock falls, ruptures an array of 3500PSI air tanks and kills everyone nearby? Rockfall is far more common than collapses trapping miners.

>If it costs too much.....too damn bad.

There are hundreds of coal mines in Canada. So there are local miners you can help with your money! I am sure the local mining companies would be more than happy to install more safety systems if you fund them.

But for US mines, I'd prefer the money going to prevent these sorts of incidents to begin with. That's just me.

[TrophyHusband 0]

this is a very interesting conversation. there are people like myself all over the country monday morning quarterbacking the rescue effort. the problem is that 99.5% of us know almost nothing about mines. i think there is a lot of frustration because it is difficult for people to understand what took so long. here is what i believe. i believe that there was a procedure that was followed to effect the rescue. this procedure was written using all the knowledge gained about mine rescue before this accident. this knowledge was probably gained at the cost of many miners' lives. this part is something we should be able to relate to. when there is a skydiving accident, we look at the procedures and refine them if necessary. i should hope that the same thing happens with mine rescue. i too have an ideas that may have sped things up, but i don't know about mines or mine economics so my ideas are nothing more than shots in the dark.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[EricTheRed 0]

I know a little about mine rescue.

The comment about two reserves is kinda close. It is possibel to have better rescue, but in reality, it's a WHOLE FUCKING LOT cheaper and easier to prevent explosions in the first place.

illegible usually

[bch7773 0]

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there are people like myself all over the country monday morning quarterbacking the rescue effort. the problem is that 99.5% of us know almost nothing about mines. i think there is a lot of frustration because it is difficult for people to understand what took so long.

totally true. This is like whuffos watching a double malfunction video and saying "these dumb skydivers should just wear 3 chutes". How often does a double malfunction really occur?

and who cares if we can communicate with the stuck miners... what will we say? "Keep surviving men, we are coming" ? or the miners could say "Gee come get us please"

MB 3528, RB 1182

[Remster 24]

Actually, if you can communicate, you can find out where they are, how many they are, what injuries, what their status is... It is very usefull, but not always possible after a catastrophic situation.

Remster