Skydivers and Morality: A Practical Discourse

[Chiquita 12]

If the cops called off the search who would the skydver yell to when and if they found the body?

Look at namgrunts post for an idea of what the area is like and why it would not have been practical for everyone to go searching.

If they don't see the body until they step on it, that would disturb the scene. Even though it is not a crime scene I am sure the cops would like to find the scene the way it was.

Plus looking for a lost child is a lot different then looking for a dead body in that condition.

Also, if your read carternick79's post you would have seen that people (at least him) asked to help and the cops told them no.

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I will say that I tried to help and that the local law enforcement did not want me to help them search for some reason, cause I asked.

If you weren't there or have never been there then you have no idea what it is like terrain wise or how things played out on the search. Besides people have said several times that most people did not even know about what had happened.

"Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity"

[SkyDekker 1,150]

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Now, if he might have been alive, that's a different story - but that wasn't the case here.

Since they hadn't found him yet, how would they have known?

[RhondaLea 3]

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Which do you think would leave a better image of the drop zone for the grieving family:
1) A hundred skydivers turn out to help search for the deceased, or;

What part of "the professionals called off the search" do you still not get?

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2) A hundred skydivers party and get drunk.

I think at such a horrible time as this incident, sacrifices have to be made. I would skip the drunk, and help find the body.

They weren't asked to help find the friggin' body, and if they had asked to help, they would have been turned away.

Civilians are a pain in the ass in these situations.

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It's for the good of the deceased, the good of the deceased's family, and the good of the image of the drop zone and the sport.

Gosh, how impractical.

The image of the dropzone and the sport? Somehow, image doesn't much come to my mind as being particularly relevant when someone dies. Gestures are generally stupid, meaningless substitutes for worthwhile action. And what you're advocating is exactly that. A gesture. One that might've gotten someone else hurt. There are lots of stories about things like that, y'know. What if someone had fallen down an old well in the dark, or tripped and broken a bone?

Taking up a collection to help with funeral expenses or giving him an ash dive or a whole host of other things would be a lot more meaningful than disregarding the choice the professionals made and rushing in where angels fear to tread.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[kelel01 1]

I think we're all aware of the likelihood of survival when someone goes in at terminal.

[SkyDekker 1,150]

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I think we're all aware of the likelihood of survival when someone goes in at terminal.

true, but it has been survived before...

[NickDG 23]

>>At a dropzone in the Southeastern US, a tandem passenger falls out of his harniss and to his demise (for whatever reason).<<

There is always that chance he was still out there gagging, but still alive . . .

You guys royally messed that up . . . even if he wasn't.

NickD
BASE 194

[kelel01 1]

I think that's bullshit. They didn't want our help. If they had said that they needed help, I know not one person who wouldn't have gladly obliged. But they obviously thought we would get in the way, that it was too dangerous, etc.

It's too bad we didn't have any of our "fuck authority, I'll do what I want, because I'm always right" friends there.

[rehmwa 2]

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Gestures are generally stupid, meaningless substitutes for worthwhile action.

OK, in or out of context, that comment makes me like you more. I believe I now owe you 2.71 beers

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NickDG 23]

Look, you seem to realize what the right thing to do was. The fact you didn't, and there were so many of you, just makes me sick.

You knew what the right thing to do was, and you didn't do it. You can justify it all you want but this is something you are going to carry with you all your life.

The only good thing is none of you will ever act that way again. A hard way to learn a tough lesson, I'll admit, but the more you try to say "it wasn't my fault," the worse you look. Get in your car and go home or get out there and look for him, there was no third way . . .

NickD
BASE 194

[kelel01 1]

You're just wrong. That's all.

[Lindsey 0]

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Look, you seem to realize what the right thing to do was. The fact you didn't, and there were so many of you, just makes me sick.

You knew what the right thing to do was, and you didn't do it. You can justify it all you want but this is something you are going to carry with you all your life.

The only good thing is none of you will ever act that way again. A hard way to learn a tough lesson, I'll admit, but the more you try to say "it wasn't my fault," the worse you look. Get in your car and go home or get out there and look for him, there was no third way . . .

NickD
BASE 194

Whatever was the "right" or "wrong" thing to do just isn't black or white. What's disgusting is how people who weren't there are so ready to pick apart the way those who were there responded.

Usually when people are in a crisis of any sort, their thoughts are not on how their response appears to the general public. They respond in a way that seems right at the moment. People who weren't there have no business picking apart their actions.

I remember when my grandfather died a while back. My mother and I were sitting there during his funeral, and something made us both laugh. Then we couldn't stop laughing....shaking we were both laughing so hard. I still can't explain why. And I'm glad that people around us thought we were crying....but we weren't. Had they known we were laughing, then they probably would've been as judgmental as you are in examining our actions. It didn't mean that I didn't care that he was dead or that I was heartless. It was just a response at the time.

I don't know why the party went on, but I see no reason not to accept at face value what those who did have to deal with this incident have to say. Why should they NOT do what they did. I've seen no explanation from those who believe it was in poor taste, except that it was somehow "wrong."

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[NickDG 23]

Okay, I'm not discounting how hard this was on all of you and I know it's not always easy to know what to do . . .

NickD
BASE 194

[RhondaLea 3]

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Get in your car and go home or get out there and look for him, there was no third way . . .

I would agree with you, Nick, if the search had not been called off for the night, and if the offer of help had been accepted by the authorities in charge.

But the search was called off, and the offer of help was refused.

In such a case, what do 300 skydivers who never even laid eyes on the decedent do?

Should the next closest dz geographically have shut down? Should we have declared the hours between the time of his assumed death and the recovery of his body a national skydiving day of silence and reflection?

It is natural to grieve for friends, and it is natural to feel empathy in the face of tragedy, but if all living comes to a halt with each single death, how much life will anyone have?

The facts seem to be, in no particular order:

1. Very few people at the dz knew what happened.
2. The authorities called off the search at dusk.
4. The family and friends of the decedent did not continue the search on their own and/or ask for the help of the skydivers present to do so.
5. The person who offered to help search was refused.
6. The area being searched is not particularly non-hazardous to untrained people.

Given the fact pattern, what were they to do?

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[artistcalledian 0]

personally....

i wouldn't even want to help search for the body, i've only seen two dead people before and they were both of my parents. Why do you assume everybody would want to go and find a mangled dead person? i certainly don't want to see somebody who has gone in like that, it would give me nightmares for quite a while, why should i have that forced upon me because others think its the right thing for me to do?

People in the emergency services are there for a number of reasons, and one of them is because they can deal with sights like that, i know i can't and don't want to

so, even if i was there and it was daylight, i wouldn't have gone to try and find him

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[JohnRich 4]

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After I die, I hope people get some use out of my organs. What's left over, bury or burn it.

With the attitude of "fuck it, leave him out there", how do you expect to have your own last wishes for your body honored? If you want your last wishes honored, you have to honor the last wishes of others. It's something we can't do for ourselves, so we all have to do it for each other.

In order to harvest your organs for others, then need to be removed quickly, not left overnight to rot.

And why bother to bury or cremate it? Heck, just throw it in the woods and let nature take care of it, to be ripped apart by animals, eaten inside-out by bugs, and left a carcass in the woods. What do you care? You're dead! But the fact that you mentioned those options kind of indicates a choice on your part, that you want something proper done with your body to dispose of it. And someone else is going to have to make sure it's done for you. So, should we give a shit what your final disposal wishes are?

General comment follows, not directed specifically at billvon.

It used to be we looked out for each other. When someone had a cutaway, others on the dive would follow the jumper down to make sure they were okay, and more would follow the gear to recover the equipment. Elsewhere in the old days, neighbors looked out for each other, we didn't hesitate to jump in and help someone in trouble, even complete strangers.

But not any more. Now we've been pussified. If a jumper lands off-airport: don't worry about it - it's someone else's problem. Did anyone go after him? No one knows, and no one cares... If you see someone hurt on the street, don't stop to help: just call "911" and go on about your life and don't worry about. There are "authorities" who are the only ones qualified to assist. Just go home to your TV and mind your own business, don't get involved, and you'll sleep well that night. Don't give a shit about others - it's much too difficult and inconvenient.

Doing the right thing is often damned difficult and inconvenient. Tough shit. Do the right thing.

[RhondaLea 3]

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With the attitude of "fuck it, leave him out there",

That's not at all what he said.

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And why bother to bury or cremate it? Heck, just throw it in the woods and let nature take care of it, to be ripped apart by animals, eaten inside-out by bugs, and left a carcass in the woods. What do you care? You're dead!

We dispose of bodies properly because they are a health risk to others, and no one wants their kids to find a body in the woods.

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It used to be we looked out for each other. When someone had a cutaway, others on the dive would follow the jumper down to make sure they were okay, and more would follow the gear to recover the equipment. In the old days, neighbors looked out for each other, we didn't hesitate to jump in and help someone in trouble.

But not any more. Now we've been pussified. If a jumper lands off-airport: don't worry about it - it's someone else's problem. Did anyone go after him? No one knows... If you see someone hurt on the street, don't stop to help: just call "911" and go on about your life and don't worry about. There are "authorities" who are the only ones qualified to assist. Just go home to your TV and mind your own business, don't get involved, and sleep well. Don't give a shit about others - it's too difficult.

You're doing that Granny Smith vs. Satsuma thing again.

And there are a lot of us who go out looking, who stop to help, who don't have the attitude you describe. But there's something to be said for letting professionals handle what they do best--I'm sure there are quite a few paralyzed people who might be walking today if some damned do-gooder hadn't moved them.

Having the good judgment not to be a narcissistic drama queen (always at the center of every crisis) does have an upside.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[kelpdiver 2]

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With the attitude of "fuck it, leave him out there", how do you expect to have your own last wishes for your body honored? If you want your last wishes honored, you have to honor the last wishes of others. It's something we can't do for ourselves, so we all have to do it for each other.

Do you know the deceased's last wishes?

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But not any more. Now we've been pussified. If a jumper lands off-airport: don't worry about it - it's someone else's problem. Did anyone go after him? No one knows, and no one cares...

where the hell are you jumping, Rich? Certainly doesn't jib with my less extensive experience with out landings, where there was always someone checking on me and giving me a lift. (3 different DZs in California)

[artistcalledian 0]

what if i can't cope with finding a dead person, have i still got to look?

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[billvon 2,463]

>With the attitude of "fuck it, leave him out there", how do you expect
>to have your own last wishes for your body honored?

People important to me know what they are.

>In order to harvest your organs for others, then need to be removed'
> quickly, not left overnight to rot.

Agreed. But if I go in because I fall out of my harness, Amy's going to know that most of those organs are unusable.

>And why bother to bury or cremate it? Heck, just throw it in the woods
> and let nature take care of it, to be ripped apart by animals, eaten
> inside-out by bugs, and left a carcass in the woods. What do you
> care? You're dead!

Precisely. All that is going to happen anyway, whether I'm in a coffin or in the woods. At that point, the people who have to deal with my carcass can make the call. I sure won't care.

>But not any more. Now we've been pussified. If a jumper lands off
>-airport: don't worry about it - it's someone else's problem.

Oh, get over yourself. This isn't about taking care of someone who landed out. This is about your disapproval of how a group of other people dealt with finding a body. You have every right to your opinion, but don't expect everyone else to share that opinion.

[Zenister 0]

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After I die, I hope people get some use out of my organs. What's left over, bury or burn it.

With the attitude of "fuck it, leave him out there", how do you expect to have your own last wishes for your body honored?

He doesnt. Unlike you he seems to have a grasp of the reality of someone going in at terminal... there will be no usable organs left...

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And why bother to bury or cremate it? Heck, just throw it in the woods and let nature take care of it, to be ripped apart by animals, eaten inside-out by bugs, and left a carcass in the woods. What do you care? You're dead!

sounds fine to me.. Exposure is a common burial rite in many cultures.. unfortunately ours insists that things be done in a more controlled manner...

hell i've sworn to a few friends i will help conduct their "viking funeral" despite the legal issues..

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Do the right thing

and they Did.. they went on with their lives, when it was obvious (to those who were even aware of the incident) there was nothing left to do to help the victim..

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[JohnRich 4]

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That's not at all what he said.

I don't think it's up to you to speak for what billvon meant.

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there's something to be said for letting professionals handle what they do best--I'm sure there are quite a few paralyzed people who might be walking today if some damned do-gooder hadn't moved them.

Likewise, there's a lot of live people who survived an accident, because a good samaritan cared enough to help. And a lot of dead people because no one cared enough to try and help.

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Having the good judgment not to be a narcissistic drama queen (always at the center of every crisis) does have an upside.

Wanting to help people in trouble, is not being a narcissistic drama queen. Is that how you would characterize doctors and nurses?

[JohnRich 4]

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Do you know the deceased's last wishes?

Nope. But lacking that info, we shouldn't just leave people to rot. We should do what we can to recover them quickly for the family. I think that's what the family wanted. Imagine the horror they went through that night having to go home, knowing their son was dead, laying out there "somewhere".

[JohnRich 4]

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You have every right to your opinion, but don't expect everyone else to share that opinion.

That's all I'm doing - voicing my opinion. It is but one of many.

Where did I say that I expected everyone else to share it?

[Michele 1]

I might have missed it above somewhere, but I was wondering; was it a Halloween Party?

I suppose it doesn't matter...any kmore than it matters if people were willing to search. What's done is done.

But I would hope that if I went in, my father would be treated with a lot more respect than was shown this family. Dad, being a whuffo, would not understand the immediacy of the merriment. He would be devastated by the apparent indifference which a 300 person party would show him...he might stay around for a beer or two, but a rave or costume party would tell him that all skydivers are selfish, inconsiderate, and callous to life and it's preciousness, even if that life was valuable to only one person. While we know that isn't true, I would hope that we would be able to put off fun and merry making for an evening, simply out of respect for those who have been bereaved.

We, as a sport, do need to be aware of the face we show the public. We complain how badly we are treated when someone goes in, how bad the publicity can be; we admonish each other on these forums to watch what is said so that the media can't misquote or misuse our statements; and then something like this happens. The perception can be deadly. Irrespective of if I knew a person who went in while I was at a DZ, putting my own selfish desire to party with friends - not in remembrance of the person but a full on party - in front of showing respect to the family is not something I'd do.

But hey, that's just me.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[JohnRich 4]

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Unlike you he seems to have a grasp of the reality of someone going in at terminal... there will be no usable organs left...

The discussion has moved from the specifics of the Atlanta incident to one of a more general nature.

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Do the right thing

and they Did.. they went on with their lives, when it was obvious (to those who were even aware of the incident) there was nothing left to do to help the victim..

How many showed up the next morning to volunteer to help the sheriff conduct the search? Did someone go around the crowd and ask for volunteers, and then go to the sheriff and say: "I can have 50 people here at 8:00 am to help you search in any way you need them."?

It was an opportunity to make a great impression with both the family of the deceased, and law enforcement.

Instead, what they'll remember is that everyone partied while a dead student lay out in the woods all night.