I keep hearing about the toxic water in N.O.

[jumper03 0]

Everyone is making a big deal about how toxic the water in N.O. is. They also say the water needs to be pumped out. So what are they going to do? Fill up Lake Ponchatrain with toxic water? Pump the toxic water into the Mississippi? I haven't heard anyone talk of cleaning or treating the water before it's pumped out (hell how would they do it anyway?)

I got a feeling this is going from fucked up to really fucked up very quickly.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[mr2mk1g 10]

The main "toxic" element of the water is it's full of disease. Nature will take care of that in time... the important thing is that people don't swim around in it or inadvertently consume it.

[wmw999 2,149]

What's the alternative? Waiting for it to evaporate isn't a good option either. If Lake Erie could be cleaned up, then Lake Ponchartrain will be too, and probably faster than if they leave it merged with NO.

Not a good option. But probably better than most of the other feasible options. Hopefully they'll study what it will take to solve the problem before introducing some invasive plant or critter that will "neutralize toxins" before invading lots of other unplanned places.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[slug 1]

Hi Folks

Dilution is no longer the acceptable solution to pollution.

In a national emergancy of this size the rules might go out the window, However theirs plenty of proven technology to treat the nasty stuff.

Pretreatment, Oil water seperators, AC: Activated carbon, and RO reverse osmosis, There's even plenty good intentioned contractors gettng on the the list to help.

If there isn't time to treat the toxic pool befor it's discharged (whats the rush now) they'll be cleaning up a bigger mess later. Contractor's like that shit they can't work for free, they get paid by the gal.

Got to give FEMA some credit we may find out that this very scenario and the solution has been considered and a solution is sitting in a report on a shelf somewhere. Stay positive, help is on the way.

Shrimp anyone

R.I.P.

[Pendejo 0]

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I got a feeling this is going from fucked up to really fucked up very quickly.

And that feeling could not be more correct. We did a little math at work today to try to come up with a SWAG about how much water is going to be pumped out.... Are you ready for this number.....

346,777,920,000 gallons of water (give or take a billion or so). For all of you who will ask where we came up with that here are the numbers we used. 25mi by 20mi by 15mi for the triangle of NO. The we figured an average of 10 feet of water. The rest is just math. Even if you argue that the number is off by 50% its still a HUGE environmental disaster. What these guys are about to create is going to be bigger than anything we in the environmental business have seen before. It will take an area the size of NO and turn it into at least twice that size (not counting the original size of NO).

The greatest danger (to the environment) is not the disease as some on tv may think.... It will be all the household chemicals, industrial chemicals, and petroleum products (from the cars, gas stations, and so on). Pour most any of your cleaners in your house in the fish tank (even a VERY small amount) and see what happens. (be sure you are tired of having fish before you do this).

Where ever they pump that water most everything will die.

The problem is, to treat it all would take to long. Funny thing about people.... The ones that are screaming that they have to "get the water out now" are the same oneS that will want to know why they didn't treat it before they pumped it later.

It shows how short sighted some people can really be when it comes to the long term problems they create. If they were smart (and its not been shown so far that they are), they would bite the bullet and clean it up the right way.... But we all know its about "instant gratification" not what is best in the long term.

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[nate_1979 9]

Gonna be a mess... I'm never a tree hugging person, but seriously, I do think they should have put into place some way to atleast TRY and clean this water as it gets pumped, even just a little bit.. Even if it would have delayed pumping the destroyed city by a bit. Your right, this is gonna get ugly, VERY ugly...

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[Pendejo 0]

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Even if it would have delayed pumping the destroyed city by a bit.

Thats the part that is just beyond me to understand. If the city is ALREADY destroyed, why not at least do the right things moving forward.

Its not like they will be back in there anytime soon.

I also am not a tree hugger, but I would like to leave the planet in some form of order for my great grandchildren.

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[nate_1979 9]

Just thinking.... We cry when a tanker leaks into our oceans etc.... I wonder, in comparison to a tanker, how much pollution we are pumping into our lakes and rivers right now, and not even thinking twice about it...

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[Amazon 7]

Why do I get the idea that it would be a good time to dump all the dredge spoils they can into the land that has been subsiding for the last 200 years since they started building the first levees down there. They are saying most of the houses that have been flooded will need to be demolished. The French Quarter did not flood so at least the old frenchies got at least a half way decent site to build on.. BUT the rest of it.. Perhaps fill it all in and start over.. at a MUCH higher elevation to prevent further flooding issues in the future. Face it.. having a city that size sitting that far below sea level that close to the Gulf and the Mississippi River.. its inevitable to flood unless they raise the ground elevation of the city. They also need to do the more important work of restoring the wetlands that are disappearing. Those wetlands have protected the area where the city was built for a very long time. The deposition of the silt that refreshed them was cut off by all the projects. If they do not fix that, there is no need to rebuild New Orleans. If they do not address the larger geomorphology issues, we can just visit it via glass bottom boats.

[Darius11 12]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/07/national/nationalspecial/07lake.html

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Water Returned to Lake Contains Toxic Material
By SEWELL CHAN and ANDREW C. REVKIN
BATON ROUGE, La., Sept. 6 - While the human and economic toll of Hurricane Katrina continued to mount, New Orleans was beginning to pump back into Lake Pontchartrain the floodwaters that had inundated the city.

But this is not the same water that flooded the city. What started flowing back into the lake on Monday and continued spilling into it Tuesday is laced with raw sewage, bacteria, heavy metals, pesticides and toxic chemicals, Louisiana officials said on Tuesday.

Whether or not the accelerating pumping of this brew from city streets into coastal waters poses a threat to the ecosystems and fisheries in the brackish bay remains to be seen, the officials said.

They added that they could do little more than keep testing and count on the restorative capacity of nature to break down or bury contaminants.

Though the state of the lake was a prime issue, it was just one of a host of problems identified in the storm-ravaged region on Tuesday by Louisiana and federal environmental officials.

For example, the officials said that although two large oil spills, from damaged storage tanks, were under control, thousands of other smaller spills continued to coat floodwaters in New Orleans with a rainbow sheen.

The first samples of the city's floodwaters were taken on Saturday by the Environmental Protection Agency, and results were expected later in the week, officials said.

"It's simply unfeasible" to try and hold the pumped water somewhere to filter out pollution, said Michael D. McDaniel, the Louisiana secretary of environmental quality.

"We have to get the water out of the city or the nightmare only gets worse," said Dr. McDaniel, who is a biologist. "We can't even get in to save people's lives. How can you put any filtration in place?"

Some scientists outside government tended to agree that the risk of long-term damage to the coastal waters was not high. One reason is that the lake is fed by several rivers and flushed by tides through its link to the Gulf of Mexico.

There will probably be an "initial toxic slug" entering the lake but that will be diluted and degraded by bacteria, said Frank T. Manheim, a former geochemist for the United States Geological Survey who teaches at George Mason University and was a co-author of a 2002 report on pollution issues in the lake.

"I think the lake has withstood has some big hits," he said, including an oxygen-sapping algae bloom after a 1997 flood.

He said that most of the long-lived industrial pollutants that can accumulate in organisms and work their way up the food chain have largely been phased out.

Overall, though, it was becoming evident that just the flooding of New Orleans had created environmental problems that could take years to resolve, state officials said.

Each of the estimated 140,000 to 160,000 homes that were submerged is a potential source of fuel, cleaners, pesticides and other potentially hazardous materials found in garages or under kitchen sinks, officials said.

The E.P.A. on Tuesday estimated that more than 200 sewage treatment plants in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama were affected, with almost all of the plants around New Orleans knocked out of action.

Hundreds of small manufacturers or other businesses using chemicals or fuels, many with storage tanks held in place by gravity instead of bolts, are probably leaking various chemicals and oils, officials and independent experts said.

The E.P.A. and the Department of Health and Human Services issued a joint statement on Tuesday warning people that "every effort should be made to limit contact with floodwater because of potentially elevated levels of contamination associated with raw sewage and other hazardous substances."

The statement urged anyone exposed to the water to wash thoroughly with soap and water and alert medical personnel about open cuts. "Early symptoms from exposure to contaminated flood water may include upset stomach, intestinal problems, headache and other flu-like discomfort," the statement said. Officials pointed to a short list of developments they called encouraging: the two largest known oil spills were declared under control, with one slick drifting out into the Gulf of Mexico and away from the state's ravaged coastline, where it will probably degrade over time.

As for the lake, "The wonderful thing about nature is its resilience," Dr. McDaniel said. "The bacterial contaminants will not last a long time in the lake. They actually die off pretty fast. The organic material will degrade with natural processes. Metals will probably fall and be captured in the sediments. Nature does a good job. It just takes awhile."

Kenneth Chang contributed reporting from New York for this article.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[nate_1979 9]

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Nature does a good job. It just takes awhile.

heh, ... well, let's hope nature knows how to handle this not-so-natural event eh?

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[Pendejo 0]

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I wonder, in comparison to a tanker, how much pollution we are pumping into our lakes and rivers right now, and not even thinking twice about it...

Right now they are pumping at a rate of 40,000 cubic feet per second. The average supertanker (assuming its a 250,000 metric tonne tanker) would be pumped dry in about 9.5 days. They are saying anywhere from 34 to 80 days of pumping, so that would be a minimum of 3.5 tankers to 8.5 tankers.

The difference is that the oil from the tankers will mostly stay on top and even though it is an awful mess its still not as bad to clean up as the mess they are making outside of NO). The water they are pumping will not. The tanker will cover more area but will not do the same amount of long term damage.

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[slug 1]

Hi Darius

The old "dilution is the solution to pollution theory"

Why the rush To pump and spread the N.O. Gumbo. 99.99% of the people inside N.O. will be removed.

I'm guessing a study will float to the surface someday about what the real plan was to handle this Hazardous waste site.

The pumps in NO were designed to get rid of reguler water (more or less) not toxic waste.

Oh goody the pumps are back on
History will be the judge.

R.I.P.

[Pendejo 0]

What a load of crap.... If that kind of thinking was true why do we fine companies for discharging into rivers and the ocean??????


(edited cause I got to pissed to be able to spell)

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[kelpdiver 2]

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What a load of crap.... If that kind of thinking was true why do we fine companies for discharging into rivers and the ocean??????

They choose to do it. No one choose to have their homes 10 feet under.

I'm not convinced you can treat the pollution at the source. Partially tightened containers under the sink may be seeping very gradually, and the same is true for lead batteries and the like. Get the water out and the hazmat teams can tackle the stuff in the city more easily, and what they dump into the lake will at least be at a static level.

It's a mess. Natural disasters often create them even without our assistance.

[Pendejo 0]

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Get the water out and the hazmat teams can tackle the stuff in the city more easily, and what they dump into the lake will at least be at a static level.

Time will tell how "static" the level will be. As someone has already said dilution is NOT the solution to pollution

The point of the post was that (IMO) we are making a bad thing worse. I have been involved in a lot of clean ups at a lot of different sites (its a part of what I do for a living). What that guy said in the article is absolutely crap. It does NOT "just go away." I really like the part about the lake being ok because it feeds into the gulf.....

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Partially tightened containers under the sink may be seeping very gradually, and the same is true for lead batteries and the like.

So pumping that crap into a lake that is not lined with concrete (you know that stuff the streets are made out of that is kind of hard for ANYTHING to leach through) so it can just disappear cause there is more water in that place?! That doesn't seem like a better answer to me.

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[kelpdiver 2]

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Get the water out and the hazmat teams can tackle the stuff in the city more easily, and what they dump into the lake will at least be at a static level.

Time will tell how "static" the level will be. As someone has already said dilution is NOT the solution to pollution

"static" means not increasing. As I suspect is happening in Lake New Orleans right now.

And I said nothing about relying on dillution. But you stop the ongoing contamination first. And if we intend to resettle people there, the sooner we stop these chemicals from seeping into the ground there (it's not all concrete, and concrete isn't the same as stainless steel anyhow) the better.

A million people versus a lake? Sounds like an easier call than most.

[flyangel2 2]

I say they just keep the water in town and make it like the Disney ride, Pirates of the Caribbean. When ever I was on that ride, I thought of New Orleans.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[slug 1]

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Get the water out and the hazmat teams can tackle the stuff in the city more easily, and what they dump into the lake will at least be at a static level.

Time will tell how "static" the level will be. As someone has already said dilution is NOT the solution to pollution

"static" means not increasing. As I suspect is happening in Lake New Orleans right now.

And I said nothing about relying on dillution. But you stop the ongoing contamination first. And if we intend to resettle people there, the sooner we stop these chemicals from seeping into the ground there (it's not all concrete, and concrete isn't the same as stainless steel anyhow) the better.

A million people versus a lake? Sounds like an easier call than most.

Hi kelp

Interesting

Pumping the hazardous material into the lake isn't "Stopping the ongoing contamination" it's doing the opposite.

If the levee's are plugged than the hazardous materials are contained in a harzardous waste lagoon, where they can be treated.

Million people? There was a million people in NO before. Their no longer there.

I don't have a clue where NO used to get their drinking water from. Some of the bad stuff is/was floating on the top of the lagoon, the heavy material settled to the bottom. Some soluble material may go underground buT it can be (if needed) pumped out and treated.

This is basic hazmat 101 stuff. if theirs a contaim the spread of contamination.

Your in charge, you don't want to listen, you decide, do what you want to do. History will be the judge

R.I.P.

[Anvilbrother 0]

I was in that water for 3 days rescuing people. We all sort of came down with a cold, and a few of us got small bumps. It is probbaly, just a cold from being wet all day and tired, and bumps from gnat and mosquito bites who knows? We are supposed to be getting blood tests done after the rescues are over tho.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[Anvilbrother 0]

The water is a average 4-5 feet.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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Why do I get the idea that it would be a good time to dump all the dredge spoils they can into the land that has been subsiding for the last 200 years since they started building the first levees down there. They are saying most of the houses that have been flooded will need to be demolished. The French Quarter did not flood so at least the old frenchies got at least a half way decent site to build on.. BUT the rest of it.. Perhaps fill it all in and start over.. at a MUCH higher elevation to prevent further flooding issues in the future. Face it.. having a city that size sitting that far below sea level that close to the Gulf and the Mississippi River.. its inevitable to flood unless they raise the ground elevation of the city. They also need to do the more important work of restoring the wetlands that are disappearing. Those wetlands have protected the area where the city was built for a very long time. The deposition of the silt that refreshed them was cut off by all the projects. If they do not fix that, there is no need to rebuild New Orleans. If they do not address the larger geomorphology issues, we can just visit it via glass bottom boats.

That is a great idea and I have been thinking the same since looking at satellite before and after photos. But it will not happen. Anyone interested, research how they raised Galveston Island after the 1900's storm.....very cool.

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[Pendejo 0]

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A million people versus a lake? Sounds like an easier call than most.

Since Slug answered the rest of the post I will get this one.

Remember that all you are doing is moving it to another area. It isn't going to go away just because you dumped it somewhere else. For the most part the city is a loss (according to what we see on tv). If thats really the case why make yourself another area to clean up? Not to mention that they are creating great place to live with the lake contaminated.

What is really crazy is that if I had turned in a paper when I was getting my degree in environmental eng. on this subject they would have given me a failing grade for coming up with this solution. Now there is a prof quoted as saying its the best option.... Its just plain nuts...

Look on the EPA site at the superfund sites here in South Carolina. You will find one where we are spending millions (well over a 150 million) to clean up a haz-waste landfill that some IDIOT built next to a LAKE. Guess what that landfill is leaching into that LAKE.... I'll give you a hint..... Its the same heavy metals and petroleum products that they are pumping into a LAKE next to NO.

Oh.... And thanks for the lesson.... But I was already aware of the definition of the word "static" and you are right about concrete and stainless steel, I just wasn't aware that the lake and rivers were lined with stainless steel.

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[Pendejo 0]

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I was in that water for 3 days rescuing people. We all sort of came down with a cold, and a few of us got small bumps. It is probbaly, just a cold from being wet all day and tired, and bumps from gnat and mosquito bites who knows? We are supposed to be getting blood tests done after the rescues are over tho.

You and the others that are helping there are the ones the press should be talking about. The people who are doing that part of this are the true heroes not the people that will try to take credit for it later.

Just in case no one has said it to you yet...(and even if they have I'll say it again)

THANK YOU!!!!!!!

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[heidihagen 0]

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The main "toxic" element of the water is it's full of disease. Nature will take care of that in time... the important thing is that people don't swim around in it or inadvertently consume it.

i think of sewage waste, mosquitos, probably roaches (bleh!), west nile, oil and other chemically stuff, gators, and weird little microscopic things the you can only see when they swim... like a bourbon street puddle gone wild! whaaaahooo!!!!!*presses against the screen*
seriously, though... i was going to post the same thing yesterday, but didn't. remember a few years ago when somewhere in asia got hit by a typhoon... then suddenly everybody had to wear surgical masks? was that SARS? i feel bad for anyone who had open cuts. the rashes make sense, but i would hate to have toxic gumbo flowing through my bloodstream.

i didn't lose my mind, i sold it on ebay. .:need a container to fit 5'4", 110 lb. cypres ready & able to fit a 170 main (or slightly smaller):.[/ce