Hooknswoop 19
Quote
Uhmm..,
Nate,
you do know that the Corps of Engineers blew a portion of the levy on Tuesday,don't you?
Blues,
Cliff
Lets see, on Tuesday:
Quote
The 15- and 20-foot tall levees surrounding New Orleans --- intended to keep water out --- produced the disastrous opposite Tuesday as water broke through the walls and flooded the city.
The Army Corps of Engineers said the 17th Street Canal levee was breached by a 500-foot break on its northeastern wall Monday night. Water from Lake Pontchartrain apparently gushed over the concrete wall and scoured the earth behind it, causing a two-block-long portion to collapse.
A second breach occurred on the Industrial Canal levee during the storm.
Unless I missed a major story (link please?) Nobody blew shit up.. There was talk as early as tuesday saying that they would blow parts of the levee that are lower to allow water to drain out of the city, let gravity do that thing we all love, but I have not heard if that has happened yet.
FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.
Kris 0
QuoteIt is a certain fact that the Army Corps of Engineers blew a portion of the levy which would flood the poorer sections of the city inorder to relieve the stress on the portions of the levy protecting the more wealthy sections.
Umm, you really need to check your facts. If it was done, it was done to destress the rest of the line of levees.
As for protecting the wealthy, the levee protecting Jefferson Parish, where a good portion of the wealthy live, had already failed and flooded many of the expensive homes there.
While the New Orleans' refugees were mostly poor and black, Jefferson Parish brought the storm's destruction to a much wider economic cross-section.
The sprawling parish stretches from Grand Isle on the Gulf of Mexico to Lake Pontchartrain in the north, and includes some of the metropolitan area's most exclusive neighborhoods.
In the enclave of Old Metairie, the rows of palatial, six-bedroom homes sustained little structural damage but had some of the worst flooding. Water rippled up the knobs at front doors and completely covered Mercedes-Benzes and BMWs in garages.
Many residents were happy that the storm spared their homes, but angry that the failure of the levee system left them swamped. Some were considering a lawsuit against the federal government for having a levee that could survive no more than a Category 3 hurricane.
"That's what's so devastating, that goddamned levee breaking," said Bobby Patrick, who is now staying in Houston. "My home didn't lose a shingle but it's got six feet of water in it."
Source: AP
Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™
Hooknswoop 19
QuoteIt is a certain fact that the Army Corps of Engineers blew a portion of the levy which would flood the poorer sections of the city inorder to relieve the stress on the portions of the levy protecting the more wealthy sections.
Link?
Derek
Lets see, on Tuesday:
Unless I missed a major story (link please?) Nobody blew shit up..
__________________________________________________
You are right,Nate.
The official story is perfectly corredct and no need to trouble ourselves any further than the officialy sanctioned mainstream report.
Blues,
Cliff
Quote
The 15- and 20-foot tall levees surrounding New Orleans --- intended to keep water out --- produced the disastrous opposite Tuesday as water broke through the walls and flooded the city.
The Army Corps of Engineers said the 17th Street Canal levee was breached by a 500-foot break on its northeastern wall Monday night. Water from Lake Pontchartrain apparently gushed over the concrete wall and scoured the earth behind it, causing a two-block-long portion to collapse.
A second breach occurred on the Industrial Canal levee during the storm.
Unless I missed a major story (link please?) Nobody blew shit up..
__________________________________________________
You are right,Nate.
The official story is perfectly corredct and no need to trouble ourselves any further than the officialy sanctioned mainstream report.
Blues,
Cliff
And instead go off of what? What you posted?
FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.
FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.
Hooknswoop 19
QuoteThe official story is perfectly corredct and no need to trouble ourselves any further than the officialy sanctioned mainstream report.
So what evidence do you have?
Derek
Kris 0
QuoteSo what evidence do you have?
He has none, as usual.
Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™
Umm, you really need to check your facts.
If it was done, it was done to destress the rest of the line of levees.
As for protecting the wealthy, the levee protecting Jefferson Parish, where a good portion of the wealthy live, had already failed and flooded many of the expensive homes there.
__________________________________________________
How much worse would that flooding have been if they hadn't blown the levees in the city at a lower level?
Blues,
Cliff
If it was done, it was done to destress the rest of the line of levees.
As for protecting the wealthy, the levee protecting Jefferson Parish, where a good portion of the wealthy live, had already failed and flooded many of the expensive homes there.
__________________________________________________
How much worse would that flooding have been if they hadn't blown the levees in the city at a lower level?
Blues,
Cliff
QuoteUmm, you really need to check your facts.
If it was done, it was done to destress the rest of the line of levees.
As for protecting the wealthy, the levee protecting Jefferson Parish, where a good portion of the wealthy live, had already failed and flooded many of the expensive homes there.
__________________________________________________
How much worse would that flooding have been if they hadn't blown the levees in the city at a lower level?
Blues,
Cliff
Umm, dude, Where did you read about this "blowing the levees"? Are the voices in your head telling you this, or do you have something that you can point us to?
FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.
Quote
OK, I wasn't discussing those people, but since you bring it up, they are dead because a they were hit by a hurricane.
Some died from the hurricane. More survived the hurricane, only to die from the flooding.
Quote
No, I am talking about the people that did stay by choice. They don't have a right to complain about the rescue/relief efforts.
I strongly disagree, in part because I believe the First Amendment is a good thing. Free speech is a right, not a privilege. But also because volunteers were on the scene long before government was. We pay taxes in part to deal with the aftermath of natural disasters like this. The flooding was not a surprise. Nor was the hurricane. There was time for those whose job it is to react to disasters such as this to formulate and initiate execution of a plan.
However, many people that stayed behind did not stay by choice. They stayed do not having the option of leaving. Ignoring them was incompetence at best.
billvon 2,466
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>Bush and FEMA were supposed to kow the levys would fail?
Yep. That's their job.
---------------------
Experts: Models predicted New Orleans disaster
Friday, September 2, 2005; Posted: 3:11 p.m. EDT (19:11 GMT)
WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- Virtually everything that has happened in New Orleans since Hurricane Katrina struck was predicted by experts and in computer models, so emergency management specialists wonder why authorities were so unprepared.
"The scenario of a major hurricane hitting New Orleans was well anticipated, predicted and drilled around," said Clare Rubin, an emergency management consultant who also teaches at the Institute for Crisis, Disaster, and Risk Management at George Washington University.
Computer models developed at Louisiana State University and other institutions made detailed projections of what would happen if water flowed over the levees protecting the city or if they failed.
In July 2004, more than 40 federal, state, local and volunteer organizations practiced this very scenario in a five-day simulation code-named "Hurricane Pam", where they had to deal with an imaginary storm that destroyed over half a million buildings in New Orleans and forced the evacuation of a million residents.
At the end of the exercise Ron Castleman, regional director for the Federal Emergency Management Agency declared: "We made great progress this week in our preparedness efforts.
--------------------------------------------------
>They were supposed to know that 22 water-proof pumps would stop
>working when they got wet?
Yep. They simulated just such disasters. That's one of their jobs - hence their name.
>Did FEMA make mistakes? Sure. But if "three skydivers in Florida knew
> what was going to happen", then how come the NO residents that
>could leave, couldn't figure out what was going to happen?
99% of them did.
>FEMA is doing the best they can, everyone is.
I agree. But if a skydiver does the best he can, and still has a cypres fire from a no-pull, no one says "hey, don't tell the guy he did anything wrong; he doesn't deserve criticism!" If he's at a DZ that actually cares about his well-being, he might get retraining - he might even be grounded until he goes through that training.
There's plenty of blame to go around here, from the people who made bad decisions to stay, to a police force that saw a lot of desertions, to a disorganized state response, to a glacial and obstructive FEMA response. The best thing to do in cases like this is accept that you made mistakes and fix them.
Yep. That's their job.
---------------------
Experts: Models predicted New Orleans disaster
Friday, September 2, 2005; Posted: 3:11 p.m. EDT (19:11 GMT)
WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- Virtually everything that has happened in New Orleans since Hurricane Katrina struck was predicted by experts and in computer models, so emergency management specialists wonder why authorities were so unprepared.
"The scenario of a major hurricane hitting New Orleans was well anticipated, predicted and drilled around," said Clare Rubin, an emergency management consultant who also teaches at the Institute for Crisis, Disaster, and Risk Management at George Washington University.
Computer models developed at Louisiana State University and other institutions made detailed projections of what would happen if water flowed over the levees protecting the city or if they failed.
In July 2004, more than 40 federal, state, local and volunteer organizations practiced this very scenario in a five-day simulation code-named "Hurricane Pam", where they had to deal with an imaginary storm that destroyed over half a million buildings in New Orleans and forced the evacuation of a million residents.
At the end of the exercise Ron Castleman, regional director for the Federal Emergency Management Agency declared: "We made great progress this week in our preparedness efforts.
--------------------------------------------------
>They were supposed to know that 22 water-proof pumps would stop
>working when they got wet?
Yep. They simulated just such disasters. That's one of their jobs - hence their name.
>Did FEMA make mistakes? Sure. But if "three skydivers in Florida knew
> what was going to happen", then how come the NO residents that
>could leave, couldn't figure out what was going to happen?
99% of them did.
>FEMA is doing the best they can, everyone is.
I agree. But if a skydiver does the best he can, and still has a cypres fire from a no-pull, no one says "hey, don't tell the guy he did anything wrong; he doesn't deserve criticism!" If he's at a DZ that actually cares about his well-being, he might get retraining - he might even be grounded until he goes through that training.
There's plenty of blame to go around here, from the people who made bad decisions to stay, to a police force that saw a lot of desertions, to a disorganized state response, to a glacial and obstructive FEMA response. The best thing to do in cases like this is accept that you made mistakes and fix them.
mnealtx 0
Let's use a hypothetical....
There's a person that is on a respirator. There's a major storm coming in and you're told to get out of the area because they expect power to fail. The city has a plan to get people out that can't get out on their own, but doesn't implement it.
The storm comes in, and power fails. The person on the respirator dies.
You people would blame the Department of Energy for the death rather than the city or the local power company....
There's a person that is on a respirator. There's a major storm coming in and you're told to get out of the area because they expect power to fail. The city has a plan to get people out that can't get out on their own, but doesn't implement it.
The storm comes in, and power fails. The person on the respirator dies.
You people would blame the Department of Energy for the death rather than the city or the local power company....
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
billvon 2,466
>The storm comes in, and power fails. The person on the respirator dies.
>You people would blame the Department of Energy for the death
>rather than the city or the local power company....
If the Department of Energy kept power workers out of the hospital, and generator power failed as a result, then yes, the DoE would bear some blame.
>You people would blame the Department of Energy for the death
>rather than the city or the local power company....
If the Department of Energy kept power workers out of the hospital, and generator power failed as a result, then yes, the DoE would bear some blame.
mnealtx 0
SOME blame, yes....I'm certainly not saying FEMA wasn't at least partially at fault - but some people seem to think it bears ALL of the blame....
It strikes me as strange that people seem to think a federal agency can act faster than local agencies...and that the federal agency should bear most of the blame.
It strikes me as strange that people seem to think a federal agency can act faster than local agencies...and that the federal agency should bear most of the blame.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
FallRate 0
Hypotheticals are useful in dealing with probabilities.
When it comes to evaluation, hypotheticals serve only to support preconceived notions. They have nothing to do with the facts at hand.
The same can be said of analogies.
All too often those who have a feeling about an issue lack the ability to take on the issue directly. So they attempt to simplify the issue by drawing an analogy...giving you a hypothetical to ponder. The irony here is that the person who introduces the hypothetical does so under the guise that they are simplifying the subject for the audience, when it is almost invariably the case that the person utilizing the hypothetical cannot fully grasp the topic without resorting to simplifications.
Just remember, if you are discussing hypotheticals you have ceased to discuss the matter at hand.
(I don't mean this as a slam on you, mnealtx. It's just a statement I would like to make.)
FallRate
When it comes to evaluation, hypotheticals serve only to support preconceived notions. They have nothing to do with the facts at hand.
The same can be said of analogies.
All too often those who have a feeling about an issue lack the ability to take on the issue directly. So they attempt to simplify the issue by drawing an analogy...giving you a hypothetical to ponder. The irony here is that the person who introduces the hypothetical does so under the guise that they are simplifying the subject for the audience, when it is almost invariably the case that the person utilizing the hypothetical cannot fully grasp the topic without resorting to simplifications.
Just remember, if you are discussing hypotheticals you have ceased to discuss the matter at hand.
(I don't mean this as a slam on you, mnealtx. It's just a statement I would like to make.)
FallRate
QuoteIt is a certain fact that the Army Corps of Engineers blew a portion of the levy which would flood the poorer sections of the city inorder to relieve the stress on the portions of the levy protecting the more wealthy sections.
sounds like something Jesse Jackson would say
QuoteI think most people would get mad if they spun in under a tension knot, broke their back, then waited for a week until someone finally got around to helping them. I bet you'd even claim that a drop zone that did that wasn't such a good DZ - even if the guy signed the waiver.
na the local and state gov't would be the dz. The Uspa would be more like the fed.
and because the dz was a uspa group member, you blame it. When the dz had a ambulance sitting at the dz but the driver was drinking at the bar
QuoteHowever, many people that stayed behind did not stay by choice. They stayed do not having the option of leaving. Ignoring them was incompetence at best.
Did you see all the city and school busses flooded. The local gov't dropped the ball. It's like pulling low and complaining about a bad spot.
Quote....
There's plenty of blame to go around here, from the people who made bad decisions to stay, to a police force that saw a lot of desertions, to a disorganized state response, to a glacial and obstructive FEMA response. The best thing to do in cases like this is accept that you made mistakes and fix them.
Finally! After all the mostly senseless rhetoric about who did what to whom and when and why and why not,... a bright ray of wisdom appears out of the blue....
Thanks billvon
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
QuoteIt strikes me as strange that people seem to think a federal agency can act faster than local agencies...and that the federal agency should bear most of the blame.
Until you consider that the 82nd Airborne Division can have people and equipment on the ground anywhere in the world in 18 hours. The 25th Infantry Division can be anywhere in 24 hrs.
I see no reason why the federal government should not have been able to get people and equipment on the ground in the gulf region in a similar time frame, considering neither the storm nor the flooding was a surprise.
Maybe I'm missing something. Is it really more important to be able to take over a foreign airport on short notice than to respond to a natural disaster on our home soil?
kallend 1,673
QuoteAll you sheeple planning on the .gov to save you in the event of a disaster better wake up.
The .gov is not responsible for your well being, Democrat or Republican no matter what they'd like you to think or you would like to believe.
.
Then the .gov should stop using my tax money to pay for FEMA and DHS, and allow me to use it for my own preparations. As long as these agencies exist and have a mission to deal with disasters, it is a reasonable expectation that they will perform.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
mnealtx 0
QuoteQuoteIt strikes me as strange that people seem to think a federal agency can act faster than local agencies...and that the federal agency should bear most of the blame.
Until you consider that the 82nd Airborne Division can have people and equipment on the ground anywhere in the world in 18 hours. The 25th Infantry Division can be anywhere in 24 hrs.
I see no reason why the federal government should not have been able to get people and equipment on the ground in the gulf region in a similar time frame, considering neither the storm nor the flooding was a surprise.
Maybe I'm missing something. Is it really more important to be able to take over a foreign airport on short notice than to respond to a natural disaster on our home soil?
Yup, a unit that already has all of it's equipment and supplies in one place.
Care to come back to the real world, where city and state governments are meant to be the first responders?
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
Quote
Did you see all the city and school busses flooded. The local gov't dropped the ball. It's like pulling low and complaining about a bad spot.
I don't remember saying the local government was without blame. Could you be so kind as to link to that particular post of mine?
Unless, of course, you are just putting words in my mouth.
OK, I wasn't discussing those people, but since you bring it up, they are dead because a they were hit by a hurricane.
Nope, they got screwed. That sucks. My heart goes out to their families.
No, I am talking about the people that did stay by choice. They don't have a right to complain about the rescue/relief efforts.
Derek
Derek
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