Someone else 'using' their dead son

[rushmc 18]

You posted
"As a suggestion - it might be better at this point to start arguing about what she's saying, rather than going after her personally. I think republicans are in danger of looking like they are deathly scared of this woman, especially if the best they can do are personal attacks."

Keep your suggestion, IMHO she has no message because what she is basing her comments on contain no truth. (other that soldiers have died)

You and I come from completely different areas.

I believe you think that all problems can and should be fixed without war. I believe that peace come from the use and display of power. You believe we abuse our (the US) power. I believe we had/have no choice. You believe we invaded Iraq. I believe we are liberating Iraq.

Am I close?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rhino 0]

Quote

If I have to sacrifice my whole family

He didn't sacrifice shit. His son did. I love it when parents take credit for their childrens honor and valor.

[panzwami 0]

Quote

Their 'baggage' is what lends their arguments credibility, unfortunately. Had they not lost a member of their own families, their protesting would not have been from a position of authority on the subject of loss for country.

That's a valid point, and that's not the angle I was trying to take. I completely agree that it's the loss of a family member that has lent these people credibility, without which I believe they would be viewed as "normal" protestors.

The baggage comes into play when the message reverts from emotional appeal to overtly political, or when acts of destruction and violence are used.

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

tso'd - where did your comment come from? Just because they have free speech doesn't mean it still isn't whining or grandstanding. Bad speech is just as protected against good speech - and both are free - and should be.

It wasn't directed specifically at you.

My point is/was that since we do have the luxury of free speech and assembly in this country, we also have a responsibility to take notice when people go WAY out of their way to make a public message.

If they are ignored, whether you agree with what they have to say or not, a little bit of the effectiveness of that freedom of speech and assembly withers away.

When enough people ignore demonstrations like these, without even taking the time to understand the demonstrators position, it weakens the system. Having peaceful methods of protest that are virtually guaranteed to be ineffective is not much different than having no peaceful methods available.

If someone feels their message is important enough, they will use whatever means necessary to get that message out there.

To repect the demonstrators is to respect a system that allows peaceful demonstation. It has nothing to do with whether or not we agree with their message. It has everything to do with whether or not we respect the system that allows them to assemble peacefully.

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

I have to agree with Rehm because people in this country abuse these "rights" and don't so much as look as them as rights but as entitlements. Common courtesy has gone out the door in this country.

I'm not understanding your point. Isn't a right so called because it is not granted by anyone or anything (except possibly God). The Constitution does not grant rights. It forbids the government from having the authority to invalidate certain rights, such as free speech or assembly.

Priveleges on the other hand can be granted or revoked by the government. But not rights. They simply Are.

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

I'm not happy with the left trying to restrict my rights by being big brother in every aspect of how I live my life

I'm not sure I understand what steps are being taken by the left to try an restrict your rights. Can you be a little more specific?

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

we also have a responsibility to take notice when people go WAY out of their way to make a public message.

I completely disagree. When someone goes WAY overboard, then I have complete distrust of their message and their ability to stay objective and factual rather than knee jerk and uncontrollably emotional. Most of the really activist nutjobs don't even have the facts, they just want to be heard.

We have a responsibility to take facts and assess them. We might have a responsibility to take the emotional and clueness nutjobs and set them straight or, at least, ignore them if they are harmless and take the wind from their sails.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

I'm not sure I understand what steps are being taken by the left to try an restrict your rights. Can you be a little more specific?

Ahh, for you only the right is guilty of being power hungry?

Start another post on this topic and ask for people to provide examples. This one will have a life of it's own. I'll toss a couple in there.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SkyDekker 1,150]

Quote

We have a responsibility to take facts and assess them.

But, who decides a fact is a fact and cannot be in question?

[ACMESkydiver 0]

Quote

The baggage comes into play when the message reverts from emotional appeal to overtly political, or when acts of destruction and violence are used.

Ok I get you.



I don't see the point others are trying to make in this thread by saying that both of these people are being 'used' by the media. Bullshit. They are not mentally incompetent. They are not children. They are using the media to drive home their point.

I will grant you (not panz but all stating the comment I mention above) that they are both in a vulnerable emotional state after losing children, however KING 5 didn't knock on their doors and ask them to lay out these elaborate displays/protests, did they?

They may be being influenced by what they have seen in the media, but to state that they are being used implies that there should be no responsibilty resting with them for their own actions. If they are incompetent to the point of having to take no responsibilities for their actions, they have become dangerous to themselves and others and should not be walking around unsupervised in public.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

But, who decides a fact is a fact and cannot be in question?

I dunno, the Coast Guard?

It's more that people take an emotional stance and, at that point, are willing to use whatever they can get, invent, or twist, to support that point. it's backwards

((first you twist and invent, then you take the stance you already wanted))

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[chuteless 1]

Can you just imagine where the world would be if the parents of those who died in World War II had done this stunt?

I think no matter what side you are on...its disgusting.

Bill Cole

.

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

Ahh, for you only the right is guilty of being power hungry?

You don't mind if I ask which of my posts gave you this idea?

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

When someone goes WAY overboard, then I have complete distrust of their message and their ability to stay objective and factual rather than knee jerk and uncontrollably emotional. Most of the really activist nutjobs don't even have the facts, they just want to be heard.

It is exactly this out of hand trivialization and dismissal to which I am referring. It marginalizes the effectiveness of peaceful protest, and in doing so, increases the relative effectiveness of non-peaceful protest.

If you completely ignore the demonstration, out of hand, because the demonstrator, in your mind, went "WAY overboard," you are certainly not upholding your "responsibility to take the facts and assess them."

I'm curious. What specific actions would you like to take in order "to take the clueless nut jobs and set them straight?" Another question, what makes her a "clueless nut job," while you yourself are more informed?

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Quote

Ahh, for you only the right is guilty of being power hungry?

You don't mind if I ask which of my posts gave you this idea?

This one (and I admit, I have to a little inferring to get there. But not much - since I infer you to mean the actions of the right are obvious since you didn't ask for that half)

"I'm not sure I understand what steps are being taken by the left to try an restrict your rights. "

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

This one (and I admit, I have to a little inferring to get there. But not much - since I infer you to mean the actions of the right are obvious since you didn't ask for that half)

"I'm not sure I understand what steps are being taken by the left to try an restrict your rights. "

I specified the left because you specified the left. I was wondering why one side and not the other. Go figure!

[Everon 0]

With all due respect, WW2 was justified. In particular, we were attacked, and Germany declared war on us within a few days. In no way is the war in Iraq justified. If it were, she would not be doing this.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

With all due respect, WW2 was justified. In particular, we were attacked, and Germany declared war on us within a few days. In no way is the war in Iraq justified. If it were, she would not be doing this.

...just one minute here. There are some who would say the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was justified because the US was blockading oil imports to Japan. Some who would say that reside on this forum from time to time.

[Lindsey 0]

Quote

Can you just imagine where the world would be if the parents of those who died in World War II had done this stunt?

I think no matter what side you are on...its disgusting.

Bill Cole

.

Likewise you can imagine how things would have gone if world news had been instantly available in everyone's living room during WWII. Many, many things are different now, and those kinds of "what if's" aren't very relevant.

Had the media been such a factor then, I'm not too sure that someone wouldn't have used it just as these parents are.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Everon 0]

[Gravitymaster 0]

nuther damn war for oil. sheeeesh......

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

I specified the left because you specified the left. I was wondering why one side and not the other. Go figure!

Hi Chris - Here's the whole paragraph - "I'm not happy with the left trying to restrict my rights by being big brother in every aspect of how I live my life, I'm not happy with the right doing it either when they think people are overdoing it to the extent of infringing on the rights of others. Both are enabling the spiral "

We are gigging on the same thing - Go Figure.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[chuteless 1]

Do you think maybe George W Bush's two daughters should join the military?

Maybe if they did, the Pres would get the troops home sooner...before his twins got killed.

Bill Cole

.

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Do you think maybe George W Bush's two daughters should join the military?

Maybe if they did, the Pres would get the troops home sooner...before his twins got killed.

Bill Cole

.

Oh ya, they should be drafted right?

IMHO though, if his daughters were in the military I do not believe that he would bring the troops home before the mission is completed.

Consistency comes from integrity and character.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[chuteless 1]

I agree that W W II was a justifiable war, and that Iraq is not. I am simply pointing out that if Bush had his kids on the front line, he might think twice about getting out before they were hit in their pretty faces with a car bomb.

regards

Bill Cole D-41

.