juanesky 0 #51 August 9, 2005 60 Years after this bloody confrontation, still some have just not read enough and gotten the facts straight.."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likvidskaj 0 #52 August 9, 2005 Just one note: those cca 30 million people were not Russian but so called Soviets (all those people from the ex SSSR). And another note: those guys/gals who are willing to consciously die for they country are the material heroes are made of - but as I recall, only two percent of all soldiers are really ready to do such a thing. And another: every war is fought because of civilians and they are casualties in every f***ing war. After all, no one (these days) is a born soldier; every combat soldier was a civilian first and than is trained to be a sodlier. In many wars civilians just wore uniforms (if they were lucky enough to have one) and fought. But were they real soldiers? In my part of the world even an old grandma can make a pretty good damage with a machine-gun (and that shit really has happened). War stinks in every way you smell it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #53 August 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteI think other option weighted heavily on the decision like testing the effects of the nukes in population. Why does this not surprise me? So let me get this straight - we lose 3000 civilians in a terrorist attack and that's unacceptable (we agree there). BUT "74.000 killed. 75.000 wounded" (Don't know if those are the real numbers) are acceptable civilian losses because they are of another nationality or because we were at war with them? Somehow I don't think you'd be singing the same tune if you were from Japan OR if they'd struck here first (civilian nuclear attack I mean). Do unto others.... Did the action have the desired result: Yes Was it worth the price of our souls: No IMO, civilian attacks (intentional) of any kind be it terrorism/war/whatever are unacceptable and cowardly. Yes, maybe it's a bit naive, but morally I have no doubt it's right. Blues, Ian So let me get this straight - we lose 3000 civilians in a terrorist attack and that's unacceptable (we agree there). BUT "74.000 killed. 75.000 wounded" (Don't know if those are the real numbers) are acceptable civilian losses because they are of another nationality or because we were at war with them? Somehow I don't think you'd be singing the same tune if you were from Japan OR if they'd struck here first (civilian nuclear attack I mean). Do unto others.... Did the action have the desired result: Yes Was it worth the price of our souls: No IMO, civilian attacks (intentional) of any kind be it terrorism/war/whatever are unacceptable and cowardly. Yes, maybe it's a bit naive, but morally I have no doubt it's right. Blues, Ian ---------------------------------------------- In response to that one must remember how war was fought in WWII. To avoid civilian casualties was NOT and option for either side. Maybe you forget the Blitzes on London. Conventional weapons in WWII were released by the 10s of thousands merely to destroy one building. They had an extremely bad kill ratio when it came to dropping bombs. Also, the intent of a Nuke at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not to "Kill Civilians", it was to completely destroy the 2 largest military manufacturing plants in all of Japan. Civilian losses were to be expected. Prior to the Nukes, Tokyo was fire stormed several times, killing more innocent civilians than Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Over 100,000 were killed in one night over Tokyo, but that is often forgotten. Say what you will, but Firestorming Tokyo didn't get them to surrender, and dropping a nuke over Hiroshima didn't get them to surrender either. What options do you think there were? ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #54 August 9, 2005 Quote What options do you think there were? Oh well, we could have started a bonfire, buy some beers and sing kumbaya...."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EricTheRed 0 #55 August 9, 2005 QuoteYou would be sadly mistaken if you think any country has the moral high ground. Including your own country which doesn't exactly have a clean record. You mean like sending Missionaries over to the new world to convert all the godless natives? Or were you talking about plundering the gold and the bio-warfare? We are all savages.illegible usually Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #56 August 9, 2005 QuoteQuote What options do you think there were? Oh well, we could have started a bonfire, buy some beers and sing kumbaya.... I think shiny happy people would have been more appropriate. Some people in america are guilt ridden over the past. Me? No. Did you know NH is the only state in the union to celebrate VJ-day? Why is that? Do we forget what Japan did to the USA, and how many men were lost fighting WWII? A war which, for the most part, we tried to stay mostly out of. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EricTheRed 0 #57 August 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteIf we didn't have them, we'd be driving suicide bombs into malls. Good luck finding American soldiers to do that. I would rather run to Canada than to blow myself up. There are plenty of americans that would take that task, willingly if the goals were great enough. Ask any marine if he would die for our country. I know the answer. The real question is should he have to.illegible usually Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverborg 0 #58 August 9, 2005 QuoteThere are plenty of americans that would take that task, willingly if the goals were great enough. Ask any marine if he would die for our country Instead of me trying to argue, I'll refer you to my previous posts for billvon. I've already said all that I've wanted too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #59 August 9, 2005 you are wrong, RI also celebrates VJ-day.....but lets go back to the generic US hating and bashing programming...."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #60 August 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteI think you underestimate americans. I know a lot of people who would gladly die for their country, even if their death was guaranteed. I'm just not gonna see eye to eye with ya on this one. I agree that there are plenty of Americans that would gladly die for their country, but I sure haven't met any in my lifetime that would knowingly strap a bomb to themselves with the intent of blowing up themselves with the enemy. I'd be very interested to meet some of these people your talking about. You haven't seen any of these people just as I haven't seen any of these people. I don't even think that Bill honestly believes that enough of of these Americans exist to employ such tactics. But by claiming that he believes it to be true, he stands his ground that we are no different than Islamic terrorists. I have learned to just look past this as I believe Bill is actually a good guy. CheersIf I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverborg 0 #61 August 9, 2005 QuoteYou haven't seen any of these people just as I haven't seen any of these people. I don't even think that Bill honestly believes that enough of of these Americans exist to employ such tactics. But by claiming that he believes it to be true, he stands his ground that we are no different than Islamic terrorists. I have learned to just look past this as I believe Bill is actually a good guy. Thanks for clarifying, it does make me feel better. Your a good guy Bill even though I can't remember one thing we've agreed on yet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,476 #62 August 9, 2005 >I don't think the objectives are the same. Let's do a little comparison here: During the war, the insurgents had little money and made do with whatever they could - improvised weapons, homemade explosives etc. They disregarded all the rules of warfare and slunk around, ambushing and shooting people, instead of fighting like "men." They had to be rooted out of towns and villages, towns and villages that belonged to the rightful government. The insurgents often blew up and burned civilian structures (like ports) and destroyed stuff in order to try to cripple an occupying power - even though by any objective measure they were outgunned many times over. Now, am I talking about Iraq or the Revolutionary War? >And I can't see how money has anything to do with it. Really? If the Iraqi insurgents had all the money they wanted, do you seriously believe they would NOT buy guns, tanks, and bombers? Do you really think a given insurgent prefers to blow himself to bits killing people, instead of firing off a few Stingers and running? >I don't care how poor or desperate we become, it will always be >easier to throw or plant a bomb rather than strapping it to yourself >and running into a crowd. Hmm. As I assume you are not speaking from experience, I will have to consider you somewhat uninformed on the subject. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverborg 0 #63 August 9, 2005 QuoteDuring the war, the insurgents had little money and made do with whatever they could - improvised weapons, homemade explosives etc. They disregarded all the rules of warfare and slunk around, ambushing and shooting people, instead of fighting like "men." They had to be rooted out of towns and villages, towns and villages that belonged to the rightful government. The insurgents often blew up and burned civilian structures (like ports) and destroyed stuff in order to try to cripple an occupying power - even though by any objective measure they were outgunned many times over. Now, am I talking about Iraq or the Revolutionary War? Since I didn't hear anything about suicide bombers, I'm going to guess the Revolutionary War. QuoteHmm. As I assume you are not speaking from experience, I will have to consider you somewhat uninformed on the subject. I could assume your not speaking from experience either, so both of us are uninformed. I was just trying to add a little common sense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #64 August 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteDuring the war, the insurgents had little money and made do with whatever they could - improvised weapons, homemade explosives etc. They disregarded all the rules of warfare and slunk around, ambushing and shooting people, instead of fighting like "men." They had to be rooted out of towns and villages, towns and villages that belonged to the rightful government. The insurgents often blew up and burned civilian structures (like ports) and destroyed stuff in order to try to cripple an occupying power - even though by any objective measure they were outgunned many times over. Now, am I talking about Iraq or the Revolutionary War? Since I didn't hear anything about suicide bombers, I'm going to guess the Revolutionary War. Quote And this is what we on the right call spinning. He knows that the difference you were referring to is that the revolutionaries did not have suicide bombers. So instead, he spoke of what they actually had in common. If he had not had that to say, he could have said something like they marched off to war with, guns. Each had 2 hands, 2 feet, 1 nose , and none of them were Chinese.If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #65 August 9, 2005 Quote60 Years after this bloody confrontation, still some have just not read enough and gotten the facts straight.. So how can I help you today on that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #66 August 9, 2005 QuoteYou haven't seen any of these people just as I haven't seen any of these people. I don't even think that Bill honestly believes that enough of of these Americans exist to employ such tactics. But by claiming that he believes it to be true, he stands his ground that we are no different than Islamic terrorists. I have learned to just look past this as I believe Bill is actually a good guy. Cheers If Cuba occupies the country as in Red Dawn, you don't think there would be a few thousand Americans willing to sacrifice themselves this way in a resistance? We already know how Americans have fought when stuck in a to the death situation like the Alamo. It's just hard to understand suicide bombings because we can't imagine a scenario where we we're so weak that we have to resort to such methods. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Steel 0 #67 August 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteYou haven't seen any of these people just as I haven't seen any of these people. I don't even think that Bill honestly believes that enough of of these Americans exist to employ such tactics. But by claiming that he believes it to be true, he stands his ground that we are no different than Islamic terrorists. I have learned to just look past this as I believe Bill is actually a good guy. Cheers If Cuba occupies the country as in Red Dawn, you don't think there would be a few thousand Americans willing to sacrifice themselves this way in a resistance? We already know how Americans have fought when stuck in a to the death situation like the Alamo. It's just hard to understand suicide bombings because we can't imagine a scenario where we we're so weak that we have to resort to such methods. ===================================== No its like Diverborg said, we would go to Canada before becoming suicide bombers. Hell a lot of Americans left to avoid Vietnam. Many more enrolled in college to avoid being drafted that way. Westerners are just not stupid enough to become suicide bombers. By definition that way you can never reap the benifits. Taking a very high risk is one thing. Many Americans will do this. Perhaps even taking your own life in a situation where you only have a limited survival time anyway, like the Americans on board of the jet that went down in PA on 9/11. But a garanteed sacrafice of your own life for any cause does not fly in a Western culture. Others might say we are to selfish for that. I say we are too smart for that. Anyway you want to define it, we just won't do it. (atleast 99.999% of us won't)If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverborg 0 #68 August 9, 2005 QuoteWe already know how Americans have fought when stuck in a to the death situation like the Alamo. It's just hard to understand suicide bombings because we can't imagine a scenario where we we're so weak that we have to resort to such methods. Fighting to the death is little different than suicide bombing. I can't believe I am even wasting my time arguing this. Did any of the americans at the alamo launch themselves out of the canons, or light themselves on fire and go hug their enemy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SpeedRacer 1 #69 August 9, 2005 this thread is getting off track. & no I don't buy the whole Iraq insurgency = minutemen in the Revolutionary war. There were HUGE differences. There are at least three different types of "insurgents" 1) Iraqi nationalists who don't want the foreign occupiers. These guys are seldom suicide bombers. They shoot at US troops & plant IEDs. 2) Criminal elements exploiting the chaos for personal gain, ie, kidnappings, armed robbery etc. and 3) Foreign jihadists. Almost all of the suicide bomber types belong to this group. They don't give a SHIT about Iraq, and will gladly target civilians, power plants, etc, just to f&*k things up as much as possible. To say that these guys are the equivalent of the minutemen is f&*king ridiculous. The minutemen did not fight the REvolutionary war by shooting & blowing up their fellow Americans. And the former colonists at least had a vision of a future for their country. Zarqawi & crew do not. They're there just to make sure WE don't succeed, & to hell with what happens to Iraq in the future. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverborg 0 #70 August 9, 2005 THANK YOU Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Steel 0 #71 August 9, 2005 Quotethis thread is getting off track. & no I don't buy the whole Iraq insurgency = minutemen in the Revolutionary war. There were HUGE differences. There are at least three different types of "insurgents" 1) Iraqi nationalists who don't want the foreign occupiers. These guys are seldom suicide bombers. They shoot at US troops & plant IEDs. 2) Criminal elements exploiting the chaos for personal gain, ie, kidnappings, armed robbery etc. and 3) Foreign jihadists. Almost all of the suicide bomber types belong to this group. They don't give a SHIT about Iraq, and will gladly target civilians, power plants, etc, just to f&*k things up as much as possible. To say that these guys are the equivalent of the minutemen is f&*king ridiculous. The minutemen did not fight the REvolutionary war by shooting & blowing up their fellow Americans. And the former colonists at least had a vision of a future for their country. Zarqawi & crew do not. They're there just to make sure WE don't succeed, & to hell with what happens to Iraq in the future. I am totally baffled because actually I agree with this entire post. CheersIf I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SpeedRacer 1 #72 August 9, 2005 um why are you totally baffled? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Steel 0 #73 August 9, 2005 Quoteum why are you totally baffled? Maybe I have you confused with somebody else and if so, I appologize. But I had you pegged as a lefty and who didn't exercise the use of such common sense. Again if I confused you with somebody else I appologizeIf I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverborg 0 #74 August 9, 2005 QuoteMaybe I have you confused with somebody else and if so, I appologize. But I had you pegged as a lefty and who didn't exercise the use of such common sense. Again if I confused you with somebody else I appologize no he's just one of these rare creatures we call a "lefty with common sense." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GTAVercetti 0 #75 August 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteMaybe I have you confused with somebody else and if so, I appologize. But I had you pegged as a lefty and who didn't exercise the use of such common sense. Again if I confused you with somebody else I appologize no he's just one of these rare creatures we call a "lefty with common sense." GAH, you left and righties make me want to throw up. Its always so EASY to say something and top it off with, "well, that is because you are a stinking conservative ( or liberal). bleh. And it was such a nice argument too. When I hear lines like that, I think of crap 24 hours news channels and I forget every relevent point you made. Speedracer, nice post. Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 3 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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kelpdiver 2 #65 August 9, 2005 Quote60 Years after this bloody confrontation, still some have just not read enough and gotten the facts straight.. So how can I help you today on that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #66 August 9, 2005 QuoteYou haven't seen any of these people just as I haven't seen any of these people. I don't even think that Bill honestly believes that enough of of these Americans exist to employ such tactics. But by claiming that he believes it to be true, he stands his ground that we are no different than Islamic terrorists. I have learned to just look past this as I believe Bill is actually a good guy. Cheers If Cuba occupies the country as in Red Dawn, you don't think there would be a few thousand Americans willing to sacrifice themselves this way in a resistance? We already know how Americans have fought when stuck in a to the death situation like the Alamo. It's just hard to understand suicide bombings because we can't imagine a scenario where we we're so weak that we have to resort to such methods. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #67 August 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteYou haven't seen any of these people just as I haven't seen any of these people. I don't even think that Bill honestly believes that enough of of these Americans exist to employ such tactics. But by claiming that he believes it to be true, he stands his ground that we are no different than Islamic terrorists. I have learned to just look past this as I believe Bill is actually a good guy. Cheers If Cuba occupies the country as in Red Dawn, you don't think there would be a few thousand Americans willing to sacrifice themselves this way in a resistance? We already know how Americans have fought when stuck in a to the death situation like the Alamo. It's just hard to understand suicide bombings because we can't imagine a scenario where we we're so weak that we have to resort to such methods. ===================================== No its like Diverborg said, we would go to Canada before becoming suicide bombers. Hell a lot of Americans left to avoid Vietnam. Many more enrolled in college to avoid being drafted that way. Westerners are just not stupid enough to become suicide bombers. By definition that way you can never reap the benifits. Taking a very high risk is one thing. Many Americans will do this. Perhaps even taking your own life in a situation where you only have a limited survival time anyway, like the Americans on board of the jet that went down in PA on 9/11. But a garanteed sacrafice of your own life for any cause does not fly in a Western culture. Others might say we are to selfish for that. I say we are too smart for that. Anyway you want to define it, we just won't do it. (atleast 99.999% of us won't)If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverborg 0 #68 August 9, 2005 QuoteWe already know how Americans have fought when stuck in a to the death situation like the Alamo. It's just hard to understand suicide bombings because we can't imagine a scenario where we we're so weak that we have to resort to such methods. Fighting to the death is little different than suicide bombing. I can't believe I am even wasting my time arguing this. Did any of the americans at the alamo launch themselves out of the canons, or light themselves on fire and go hug their enemy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #69 August 9, 2005 this thread is getting off track. & no I don't buy the whole Iraq insurgency = minutemen in the Revolutionary war. There were HUGE differences. There are at least three different types of "insurgents" 1) Iraqi nationalists who don't want the foreign occupiers. These guys are seldom suicide bombers. They shoot at US troops & plant IEDs. 2) Criminal elements exploiting the chaos for personal gain, ie, kidnappings, armed robbery etc. and 3) Foreign jihadists. Almost all of the suicide bomber types belong to this group. They don't give a SHIT about Iraq, and will gladly target civilians, power plants, etc, just to f&*k things up as much as possible. To say that these guys are the equivalent of the minutemen is f&*king ridiculous. The minutemen did not fight the REvolutionary war by shooting & blowing up their fellow Americans. And the former colonists at least had a vision of a future for their country. Zarqawi & crew do not. They're there just to make sure WE don't succeed, & to hell with what happens to Iraq in the future. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #71 August 9, 2005 Quotethis thread is getting off track. & no I don't buy the whole Iraq insurgency = minutemen in the Revolutionary war. There were HUGE differences. There are at least three different types of "insurgents" 1) Iraqi nationalists who don't want the foreign occupiers. These guys are seldom suicide bombers. They shoot at US troops & plant IEDs. 2) Criminal elements exploiting the chaos for personal gain, ie, kidnappings, armed robbery etc. and 3) Foreign jihadists. Almost all of the suicide bomber types belong to this group. They don't give a SHIT about Iraq, and will gladly target civilians, power plants, etc, just to f&*k things up as much as possible. To say that these guys are the equivalent of the minutemen is f&*king ridiculous. The minutemen did not fight the REvolutionary war by shooting & blowing up their fellow Americans. And the former colonists at least had a vision of a future for their country. Zarqawi & crew do not. They're there just to make sure WE don't succeed, & to hell with what happens to Iraq in the future. I am totally baffled because actually I agree with this entire post. CheersIf I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #72 August 9, 2005 um why are you totally baffled? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #73 August 9, 2005 Quoteum why are you totally baffled? Maybe I have you confused with somebody else and if so, I appologize. But I had you pegged as a lefty and who didn't exercise the use of such common sense. Again if I confused you with somebody else I appologizeIf I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverborg 0 #74 August 9, 2005 QuoteMaybe I have you confused with somebody else and if so, I appologize. But I had you pegged as a lefty and who didn't exercise the use of such common sense. Again if I confused you with somebody else I appologize no he's just one of these rare creatures we call a "lefty with common sense." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #75 August 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteMaybe I have you confused with somebody else and if so, I appologize. But I had you pegged as a lefty and who didn't exercise the use of such common sense. Again if I confused you with somebody else I appologize no he's just one of these rare creatures we call a "lefty with common sense." GAH, you left and righties make me want to throw up. Its always so EASY to say something and top it off with, "well, that is because you are a stinking conservative ( or liberal). bleh. And it was such a nice argument too. When I hear lines like that, I think of crap 24 hours news channels and I forget every relevent point you made. Speedracer, nice post. Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
