God is dead. (warning: rant)

[skydivermom 0]

I would just laugh because I know neither is true!

Mrs. WaltAppel

All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28

[britboynz 0]

The symphonic poem of the same name by Richard Strauss is also good (at full volume when you're belting down the motorway!)

Glad you've found enlightenment WrongWay. As Morpheus said: Welcome to the Real world.

Russ

[popsjumper 2]

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I dunno...our Southern Baptist preacher said that God told him we would all burn in hell if we didn't believe.....I wonder...should I slather myself with barbeque sauce just before I die?

He said you would all burn in hell if you didn't believe what?

Ahhhhhh....the infamous trolling ploy.....sorry, you're bait isn't good enough.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[AlexCrowley 0]

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I would just laugh because I know neither is true!

Thats awesome!

Thanks for missing the point!

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[skydivermom 0]

YOU missed MY point! Which is that we are the only ones responsible for how we feel. If we get offended and upset than we allowed ourselves to do so and we are giving our power away to someone else. You can live a lot happier life if you learn to blow people off and be the one in control of your feelings and reactions.

"Thank you for missing the point"


Well, you are very welcome my friend!

Mrs. WaltAppel

All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28

[AlexCrowley 0]

I understand your point - it's pretty clear..I also happen to agree with you.

I wondered why you'd felt compelled to answer an obviously rhetorical question that was created solely to provide a non-religious equivelent to 'God is dead' in response to Walt's original statement.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[crwtom 0]

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I don't have to prove anything,

as long as you don't affect my life I don't care - thiis is a free country and people believe in a lot of strabnge things without delivering the beginning of proof (... the wild conspiracy theories of the several taxi drivers and bar flies I had to listen to at least started out from real people).

The sad reality though is that christians do try to imprint their phantasies onto common good and try to surround other with their sets "dos" and "don'ts".

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I walk by faith, not by sight.

.. sounds dangerous. I try to use my eyes when I walk.

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I will certainly pray for you and I hope you someday realize just how real God is (Not a made up fairy tale).

That's OK. You can also stick pins into a Voodoo doll with my name on it. It should have about the same effect.

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This confining life that you speak of? I have been a Christian for a long time and I've never felt more free. In fact, the bible tells us that we can be slaves to sin. How confining do you think it was for God to take on human flesh (Jesus) and come to earth and endure the treatment that he did. He did not have to do that but he loved us so much.

so first of all I have to believe that I am threatended by that thing you call "sin" - I guess, because I am by default a bad boy and/or could not prevet myself from doing thing that are evil by someone's concocted standards. Or maybe I already am evil without doing anything just because I was born and am a human being. (I could never figure out which one it is)

Then I have to be eternally grateful to a spook because the dude made some sacrifice and, as a result, through some totally incomprehensible magic and invisible chain of events all my dues are paied for. I suppose, of course, only if I submit my soul to that spirit.

Good grief! ... this is one hell of a star cruise of a guilt trip - one I would never want to be on.

I can decide for myself what I think is the right or wrong thing to do with my life - the word "sin" does not exist in my vocabulary .. it is void of any meaning.

I certainly don't feel in any danger of becoming a "slave" of this or any other "bad habits". The paranoid phobia of one's own deep-down "immorality" (by whatever standards) seems to be a propelling reason for many to take on religion as a sort-of self-medication.

How many religious people have I met who told me they had problems with substance abuse, promiscuity, masturbation, nasty thinking about others, etc, and were somehow relieved by religion? For me there are two possibilities, either I muster up the discipline myself to change my habits or I just redefine for myself a "bad habit" into an "OK habit" ... end of story ... no guilt trip needed.

Finally, I definitely don't owe anything to any metaphysical being. Even if exitent, if this guy decides to slaughter his own son ... well then ... tough luck for him. I nevere told him to do so.

I go through life without feeling of dept or guilt to anything or anyone, and define my own standards as I figure them myself. Your philosophy above doesn't sound anything like that.

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Especially the other day when I was gliding down to earth and got to see a sunset at 7,000 ft. If you are looking for concrete proof or are waiting for him to come down and talk to you, you are going to be very disappointed.

I do believe in sun sets - I can see them, and very much enjoy them.

That makes me religious??

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I hope you do reconcile this while you still have the chance.

Are we pulling out the guilt and scare whip again? Just like those signs along the rural parts of some highways that warn you that hell is real and near and that you will fry in it if you don't repent and convert instantaneously.
If I would put up an analogous sign for a cult that is less established than chritianity most people would seriously question my mental sanity.

Cheers, T

*******************************************************************
Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true

[skydivermom 0]

You are absolutely right. Obviously there are statements that CAN be more offensive than others and that is what he was trying to say. I did not mean to sound smart alek at all. I'm just a happy person and try not to take life too seriously.

I'm also not one that thrives on conflict so I apologize if my post seemed tackless in any way. I did not join these forums for any reason other than to have fun. You and I don't know eachother, but we know we have at least one thing in common. We LOVE skydiving. So let's forget about what we may not agree on and just have a good time talking about this awesome sport. Life's too short.

Blue skies,

Mrs. WaltAppel

All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28

[skydivermom 0]

Are we pulling out the guilt and scare whip again? Just like those signs along the rural parts of some highways that warn you that hell is real and near and that you will fry in it if you don't repent and convert instantaneously.
If I would put up an analogous sign for a cult that is less established than chritianity most people would seriously question my mental sanity



It's okay if you label me in sane, my kids and husband may agree with you sometimes!

I realize I"m not going to change your mind and that's not what I was trying to do to begin with. You don't believe in God and Jesus. That is your right to live and believe as you please, but just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean it's not real. After all, everyone thought Christopher Columbus was nuts when he said the earth was round. They all "believed" it was flat. That's all I was trying to say.

And prayer does have an affect in MY life. It may not in yours and that's fine but I'm still going to pray for you. I don't understand why you are so upset at me. Why does it matter to you what I think and believe? You don't even know me. I don't go around thumping anyone on the head with my bible, but I will tell someone about my faith if they ask me.

And about your comment regarding walking by faith. I'm sure you are smart enough to know it is talking about a spiritual walk. I don't know what my future holds, but I'm certainly going to have faith that God does.

I am not sorry for speaking about what I believe, but I am sorry if I upset you. That was not my intention. I did not mean to sound threatening and brutal. If you knew me at all you would know I don't thrive on conflict. You are absolutely entitled to your opinions and ideas and you express them very well.

I am not basing any of my beliefs on my own wisdom and ideas. It's all from God's word. My Christian life is not confining and guilt-ridden, it is very fullfilling. There is nothing wrong with two people disagreeing with one another, but let's not allow it to escalate into an all out war. After all, we have at least one thing in common, we LOVE skydiving! That is why I joined this forum and I'm sure you can say the same. Let's agree to disagree and have fun. Okay?

Blue Skies,

Mrs. WaltAppel

All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28

[Everon 0]

It's interesting to see some of the responses on this thread that actually make sense. Being a physical scientist myself, I find it amazing what some people believe as "gospel" without ever questioning the validity of these beliefs. Case in point: anyone who believes god created the earth and solar system had better take a hard look at reality. The Hubble Space Telescope shows thousands of images in our galaxy of starbirth (the evolution of solar systems, like ours, by the process of collapsing clouds of gas and dust due to gravity). These clouds of elements are from former supernovae blasting their contents into space. With this evidence, how could anyone with a reasonable mind possibly believe god created the earth in 6 days? It's ludicrous! I could go on and on with this, but the point has been made - science is rapidly closing the gaps that formerly needed "god" as an explanation.

As an atheist, I must clarify some wild misconceptions of people like me that are perpetuated by most christians. As atheists, we believe in equal opportunities, civil rights, and benefits for all humans. We also believe that science is the driving force that will inevitably lead future generations to better prosperity and happiness. Now, I know that there are christians who truly are nice, loving people (Skydivermom), but christianity according to most, including the present Bush administration, has been a serious detriment to society. It teaches discrimination (gays, atheists, etc.), a suppression of science (evolution), a need to force their mythology into the science classroom (creation "science," ridiculous - as noted above) and this is nothing short of reprehensible. My moral standards as stated above certainly are higher than these standards, and for that, I stand proud and tall as an atheist.

Finally, I have to laugh at christians who say I'm "evil," or I'm "miserable and sinful and need god." To this I reply: I don't need any guarantees of everlasting life (who the hell would want to live forever, anyway? Are you nuts?) When I die, I'm decomposing into dust, from which I evolved. I know that "heaven" on earth is something I should and am working for NOW, before the finality of death. But, most importantly, I work hard to make sure everyone I know is treated fairly, equally, and not subject to discrimination nor hatred, and is curious enough about our existence to question it through critical thinking and research, not blindly accepting the writings of tribesmen who believed the earth was flat, was the center of the universe, and the sun was 17 miles away, orbiting the earth.

[waltappel 1]

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I don't understand why you are so upset at me. Why does it matter to you what I think and believe? You don't even know me. I don't go around thumping anyone on the head with my bible, but I will tell someone about my faith if they ask me.

I don't think he's mad at you. For those of us who don't believe God, Heaven, Hell, etc., the frustration builds up occasionally. It gets awfully easy for us to feel like we are being constantly bombarded with belief systems that seem extremly far-fetched to us, yet we seem to be regarded as some sort of freaks when we say that we don't accept those beliefs.

Sometimes that frustration comes out and seems hostile.

Everyone is friends here, and though it sometimes does not seem that way, I think we all respect each other.

That being said, we generally don't pull punches in the discussions here and I prefer to think that it is because the emotions aroused by that can really motivate us to *think* about our positions. I come out of these discussions bloodied at times, but to me it is well worth it.

I would wager that if all of us were put in a small room with each other, that we would have a lot of laughs.

Please don't take personal offense at any of the remarks directed toward any of your posts. I really think they are directed at your *posts* not at you. Even though I disagree with your beliefs regarding religion, I would very much like for you to stick around and continue to put your 2 cents in.

And considering that this is coming from a godless infidel, that's saying something.

Walt

p.s. I NEVER mind when someone prays for me. I am not one to refuse a simple and beautiful gesture of good will, even though I may not accept the underpinnings of that gesture. Sending good vibes is a nice thing and I'll take that any time.

[Muenkel 0]

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It's interesting to see some of the responses on this thread that actually make sense. Being a physical scientist myself, I find it amazing what some people believe as "gospel" without ever questioning the validity of these beliefs. Case in point: anyone who believes god created the earth and solar system had better take a hard look at reality. The Hubble Space Telescope shows thousands of images in our galaxy of starbirth (the evolution of solar systems, like ours, by the process of collapsing clouds of gas and dust due to gravity). These clouds of elements are from former supernovae blasting their contents into space. With this evidence, how could anyone with a reasonable mind possibly believe god created the earth in 6 days? It's ludicrous! I could go on and on with this, but the point has been made - science is rapidly closing the gaps that formerly needed "god" as an explanation.

Maybe God is using science to screw with your heads.

_________________________________________
Chris

[AlexCrowley 0]

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Maybe God is using science to screw with your heads.

The concept of an all powerful creator who messes with peoples heads for the sake of it sounds like a cool concept for a religion.

On some otherworldly plane I can see the headlines now:

"Karl Rove blows Loki's cover by revealing him to be JudeoChristian God
by Hunter S Thompson in Heaven.

Today the Bush administration once again defended Rove over the controversy regarding Rove leaking information to Pat Robertson regarding the real identity of Jehovah.

In an email to Rev Robertson Mr Rove sent the following: "Jehovah is in fact the husband of Sigyn and an enemy of Zeus, he's a bit of a prankster".

While the mainstream religious groups are split there is a large number of people demanding that Rove resign. In his defense a number of people are claiming that Rove could not have unmasked Loki as Jehovah when historically it is clear that he outed himself by creating the platypus, Michael Jackson and flatulence.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[Zenister 0]

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everyone thought Christopher Columbus was nuts when he said the earth was round. They all "believed" it was flat. That's all I was trying to say.

actually very few intellectuals believed the earth was flat... but if its convenient for you to subscribe to that fallacy as justification for your unprovable belief in your 'god' that is 'cool' but it has little to do with reality...

it was pretty easy to prove the earth was round (and its size was calculated even) LOOOONG before Columbus sailed. (Google Eratosthene and become enlightened) but the ignorant will STILL believe whatever helps them to sleep at night..

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[skydivermom 0]

That was not my point! Saying "everyone" believed Christopher Columbus was a broad statement I will admit but I could care less how many intellectuals knew the earth was round. SOME did believe the earth was flat but just because they believed it didn't make it so. Just because you all do not believe in God it doesn't mean he doesn't exist for those of us who do believe!


I am not here to put anyone down or try to push my views and beliefs on you all, but there have been many replies to my post that seem to border on attacks. Like the reference to prayer and voodoo dolls. Come one guys let's all respect eachother okay? I am not telling any of you that you should pray or believe what I believe so please don't tell me my prayers don't work and make references that it's all a "fairy tale" and that the ignorant believe whatever to help them sleep better. That is really unnecessary. If I just came up with all of this on my own without studying and reading then it would be out of ignorance.

Also, yes it was easy to prove the earth was round. As for my own PERSONAL beliefs, it wouldn't be called faith if you could prove it. Lastly, I never intended to frustrate anyone. I thought I was simply stating what I believe and what drives my faith, the same way you all were saying why you don't believe. I can assure you my intentions were the best.

Mrs. WaltAppel

All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28

[AlexCrowley 0]

Kathleen, as was mentioned before, you're not being attacked but your posts will be picked apart. Thats the nature of SC, we argue because we like to challenge each other and learn from each other. If person A says 'X = Y' then person B will ask 'why do you say that? X = Z because A + B = C', hopefully A comes back and says 'Ahhh C may be but E - F > G, which is why X = Y, but I take your point, perhaps it's clearer to say X = Y^C'.

Your posts are merely being discussed the same as everyone elses.

Personally I hate Descartes argument for the existence of God for the following reasons:

I think the problem is that a believer is going to approach such an argument from such a different perspective than a non-believer that any middleground where communication can be agreed upon is going to be very difficult to find. ( I mentioned this earlier in the thread regarding conflicting ideologies, the 'BS theatre' post). What appears to be a totally rational and logical argument from one side sounds inane and weak from the other.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[shropshire 0]

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As for my own PERSONAL beliefs, it wouldn't be called faith if you could prove it.

We have a winner..... this is the best (and possibly) only accurate statement in this whole turgid thread.


But it's not very Speakers Corner... not, contentious enough

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[skydivermom 0]

Your point is very objective and makes so much sense. This really is good for me because I never had the courage before to even express myself at all. I was too afraid. You all have helped me so much to realize I need not take things so hard and not be so "thinned skinned". I do not have any animosity towards any of you because of what you believe or don't believe. My sister doesn't believe like I do but I love her to death and we have a great time together.

I can sum up what I've been trying to say this whole time in just one verse...

..."CHOOSE ye this day whom you will serve, but as for me and for my house, we will serve the Lord..." Joshua 24:15.

We all have the right to choose and no one can choose for anyone else.

I want to thank all of you for your help. I now have more confidence and feel more at ease about entering into discussions like this.

Mrs. WaltAppel

All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28

[sundevil777 94]

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it wouldn't be called faith if you could prove it.

If we lived at the right time, we would have been able to witness certain events that would be proof. I don't understand why proof was available then, but is not available now because it would deny faith.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[waltappel 1]

I'm glad you decided to stick around!

Walt

[skydivermom 0]

This is a very good question, and I can answer it.

In the 13th chapter of 1 Corinthians it talks about all of the miracles and what provided "proof" and how the end of these things came to be. (I'm not saying God still doesn't chose to heal people today.) "When that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away with." The "in part" was the "proof" that so many seek today. The "perfect" is the completed word of God. These things were available then because we did not have the complete word of God. God worked through men to write his word. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God..."2 Tim 3:16 and "...holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:21

"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17 This is a very interesting subject and if you do want more information I would be glad to discuss it. You could also PM me if you want. Take care and Blue Skies.

Mrs. WaltAppel

All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28

[skydivermom 0]

Thank you. I'm actually starting to enjoy this!

Mrs. WaltAppel

All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28

[sundevil777 94]

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This is a very good question, and I can answer it.

In the 13th chapter of 1 Corinthians it talks about all of the miracles and what provided "proof" and how the end of these things came to be. (I'm not saying God still doesn't chose to heal people today.) "When that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away with." The "in part" was the "proof" that so many seek today. The "perfect" is the completed word of God. These things were available then because we did not have the complete word of God. God worked through men to write his word. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God..."2 Tim 3:16 and "...holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:21

"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17 This is a very interesting subject and if you do want more information I would be glad to discuss it. You could also PM me if you want. Take care and Blue Skies.

Some parts of the bible do not agree, correct? Some books were refused to be part of the bible, correct? Who was the editor in charge of that?

I think that psychics helping police and so many similar near death experiences are beyond explanation without resort to an afterlife, but I believe we don't have it figured out by a long shot.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[AlexCrowley 0]

One could easily argue that some parts of science do not agree either, especially once you start looking at quantum theory. Einsteins theory of relatively is certainly looking more and more shakey as we learn more at a subatomic level.

I have more but i'm going to start another thread on this.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[skydivermom 0]

You are absolutely right! None of us have everything figured out. As I stated in an earlier post, I don't have all the answers and will be learning as long as I am here. Man, it would take the excitement out of life if there was nothing left to discover.

No,the Bible does not contradict itself. Sometimes we can take one verse and if we don't read the verses around it or sometimes the whole chapter it's meaning will be skewed. For example Matthew 7:1 says "do not judge, lest ye be judged." But John 7:24 says "judge righteous judgment." Yes, sounds very contradicting to me. However, if you read the whole chapter in Matthew it becomes clear that he is talking about hypocritical judgment. Take the plank out of your eye before trying to take the speck out of someone elses. I have no business counseling someone about their stealing habit if I myself am holding up banks. Cheesy example I know.

Also the old and new testaments seem to contradict one another. It makes more sense when you understand that when Christ died man was no longer under the law of Moses. He gave us a newer, better law. We don't do animal sacrifices anymore and we worship on the first day of the week instead of the seventh. Just a couple of examples. In 2 Corinthians it states "God is not the author of confusion."

As for the idea that man prevented some of the books from making it into the Bible, the original Greek Septuigen (from the first century) has the complete word of God. There is nothing missing from that and it is an original document. Even if that weren't the case though, it goes back to faith.

"Heaven and Earth will pass away, but my words shall not pass away." Matthew 24:35

I think where all of us (those that believe and want to believe) have trouble is getting our minds around the whole concept. It is not always easy to have faith and it's much easier to rely on our own wisdom and what we can observe with our senses. I struggle with this all the time.

I think it's wonderful to ask all of these questions. Most of us do at some point. I know you may not agree with me but I hope I have been at least some help. You have certainly helped me a lot. The more I study with people the more I learn.

Take care and have safe jumps and soft landings.

Mrs. WaltAppel

All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28