circumcision

[freeflybella 0]

thank you for that.

when I sit and try to imagine the kind of boy/man I want to raise - knowing full well he might have his own ideas about who/what he wants to be - I imagine a boy who is well-adjusted, thinks for himself, is confident, compassionate and thoughtful and insightful (among many other things).

to me, that boy/man will be able to handle any juvenile locker room cruelty (we all survived, didn't we?) and thrive in spite of it.

and he wouldn't want to sleep with a woman who would criticize his appearance.

again, I know he'll probably teach me more than I'll ever hope to teach him but for now, it's up to me to raise the boy I imagine he'll be.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[IanHarrop 37]

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Then I said something to the effect that I thought it would be better to not make him have to go through the pain of having that bit of skin cut off and asked if he agreed

Can anyone who has has there child cut explain just how much pain it really seemed to cause. Of all the things I have done to may body that hurt, I just can't imagine that being cut inflicted much pain.

Check out this site that has several video and slideshows of the process as performed in hospitals:

http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/video.html

I don't know how to rate the pain objectively but subjectively these babies appear to hurt.

Edited to add: This site with the videos is obviously VERY biased in favor of not circumcising kids. Perhaps not the best site to use as a reference but only what I could find in a short time.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[Alias 0]

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Then I said something to the effect that I thought it would be better to not make him have to go through the pain of having that bit of skin cut off and asked if he agreed

Can anyone who has has there child cut explain just how much pain it really seemed to cause. Of all the things I have done to may body that hurt, I just can't imagine that being cut inflicted much pain.

My sons think they were born that way - So I guess there was no memory of the 2 minutes of crying after the 2 minute procedure in the room an hour after the birth.

Just asked the guy in the office with me if he did with his new son. He says the same thing I hear here. "I am also, seems cleaner and the norm. Didn't really think about it that much, why? Whats the big deal" Just laughed and said never mind.

Not a big deal to the people who were cut!

Still trying to figure what side of the knife the professor falls on....only to better understand his position of course

Carpe Diem

[freeflybella 0]

congratulations! you're in for quite a trip! it's INCREDIBLE.

(my first is 3 weeks old)

The ear piercing thing is a good analogy. it might be a bit hypocritical but I'm right there with you.

I didn't/don't see much that's 'horrible' about circumcision. I guess in the end - after researching both sides exhaustively - I landed on one side of the fence by a small margin.

I have probably spent more time thinking about this than my son ever will!

And you're so right on about the immunizations...

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[CornishChris 5]

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The study's preliminary results showed that circumcision reduced the risk of contracting HIV by 70 percent -- a level of protection far better than the 30 percent risk reduction set as a target for an AIDS vaccine.

I think that if you are relying on not having a foreskin to stop you contracting an STD then you have bigger issues!

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[TrophyHusband 0]

Quote

As for the cleanliness thing - female genitalia is far more physically complicated than an uncut penis and we manage just fine keeping ourselves clean.

not all of you

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[freeflybella 0]

Sorry for you.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[kallend 1,683]

A few articles on the pain of neonatal circumcision:

Pain, Stress, and Trauma of Unanesthetised Circumcision and its Effects
Anders T, Sachar E, Kream J et al. Behavioral state and plasma cortisol response in the human neonate. Pediatrics 1970; 46(4):532-537.
Emde RN, Harmon RJ et al. Stress and neonatal sleep. Psychosomatic Medicine, Vol 33, No. 6 (November-December 1971), Pages 491-497.
Tennes K, Carter D. Plasma cortisol levels and behavioral states in early infancy. Psychosom Med 1973; 35:121-128.
Anders TF, Chalemian RJ. The effects of circumcision on sleep-wake states in human neonates. Psychosom Med 1974; 36:174-9.
Talbert LM. et al. Adrenal cortical response to circumcision in the neonate. Obstet Gynecol 48:208-210, Aug. 1976.
Rawlings DJ, Miller PA, Engel RR. The effect of circumcision on transcutaneous PO2 in term infants. Am J Dis Child 1980; 134: 676-8.
Gunnar MR, Fisch RO, Korsvik S, Donhowe JM. The effects of circumcision on serum cortisol and behavior. Psychoneuroendocrinology 1981; 6: 269-75.
Marshall RE, Porter FL, Rogers AG, Moore J, Anderson B, Boxerman SB. Circumcision: II. Effects upon mother-infant interaction. Early Hum Dev 1982;7: 367-74.
Holve RL, Bromberger PJ, Groveman HD, et al. Regional anesthesia during newborn circumcision. Effect on infant pain response. Clin Pediatr Phila 1983; 22: 813-8.
Gunnar MR, Fisch RO, Malone S. The effects of a pacifying stimulus on behavioral and adrenocortical responses to circumcision in the newborn. J Am Acad Child Psychiatry 1984; 23: 34-8.
Wallerstein E. Is Non Religious circumcision necessary? J Am Acad Child Psychiatry 1985; 24(3):364-365.
Dixon S. Snyder J. Holve R. Bromberger P. Behavioral effects of circumcision with and without anesthesia. J Dev Behav Peds 1984; 5: 246-250.
Gunnar MR, Malone S, Vance G, Fisch RO. Coping with aversive stimulation in the neonatal period: quiet sleep and plasma cortisol levels during recovery from circumcision. Child Dev 1985; 56: 824-34.
Malone SM, Gunnar MR, Fisch RO. Adrenocortical and behavioral responses to limb restraint in human neonates. Dev Psychobiol 1985; 18: 435-46.
Porter FL, Miller RH, Marshall RE. Neonatal pain cries: effect of circumcision on acoustic features and perceived urgency. Child Dev 1986; 57:790-802.
Anand, KJS, Hickey PR. Pain and its Effects on the Human Neonate and Fetus. New Engl J Med 1987;317:1321-1329.
Gunnar MR, Connors J, Isensee J, Wall L. Adrenocortical activity and behavioral distress in human newborns. Dev Psychobiol 1988; 21: 297-310.
Porter FL, Porges SW, Marshall RE. Newborn pain cries and vagal tone: parallel changes in response to circumcision. Child Dev 1988; 59: 495-505.
Marshall RE. Neonatal pain associated with caregiving procedures. Pediatr Clin North Am 1989; 36: 885-903.
Anand KJS, Carr DB. The Neuroanatomy, Neurphysiology, and Neurochemistry of Pain, Stress, and Analgesia in Newborns and Children. Pediatric Clinics of North America 1989;36(4):795-822.
Schoen EJ, Fischell AA. Pain in neonatal circumcision. Clin Pediatr (Phila) 1991; 30: 429-32.
Howard CR, Howard FM, Weitzman ML. Acetaminophen analgesia in neonatal circumcision: the effect on pain. Pediatrics 1994; 93: 641-6.
Taddio A, Koren G et al. Effect of neonatal circumcision on pain responses at vaccination in boys. The Lancet 345: Pages 291-292 (February 4, 1995).
Fleiss P. Letter. The Lancet, Vol 345, P. 927, 8 April 1995.
Warren J. Letter. The Lancet, Vol 345, P. 927, 8 April 1995.
Taddio A, Koren G et al. Effect of neonatal circumcision on pain response during subsequent routine vaccination. The Lancet, Vol. 349: Pages 599-603 (March 1, 1997).
Weisman SJ, Berstein B, Schechter NL. Consequences of inadequate analgesia during painful procedures in children. Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med 1998; 152:147-9.
Taddio A, Shah V, Gilbert-MacLeod C, Katz J. Conditioning and hyperalgesia in newborns exposed to repeated heel lances. JAMA 2002;288(7):857-61.
Psychological Considerations
Porter FL, Wolf CM, Miller JP. Procedural pain in newborn infants: the influence of intensity and development. Pediatrics. 1999;104:e13. (link to www.pediatrics.org)
Rhinehart J. Neonatal circumcision reconsidered. Transactional Analysis Journal 1999; 29(3):215-221.
Anand KJ, Scalzo FM. Can adverse neonatal experiences alter brain development and subsequent behavior? Biol Neonate 2000 Feb;77(2):69-82.
Chamberlain D. Babies Remember Pain. Pre- and Perinatal Psychology Journal, Summer 1989. (courtesy of the Primal Psychotherapy Page)
Complications of Anesthesia
Sara CA, Lowry CJ. A complication of circumcision and dorsal nerve block of the penis. Anaesth Intensive Care 1985; 13: 79-82.
Berens R, Pontus SP Jr A complication associated with dorsal penile nerve block. Reg Anesth 1990; 15: 309-10.
Snellman LW, Stang HJ. Prospective evaluation of complications of dorsal penile nerve block for neonatal circumcision. Pediatrics 1995; 95: 705-708.
Tse S, Barrington K. Methemoglobinemia associated with prilocaine use in neonatal circumcision. Am J Perinatol 1995; 12: 331.
Arda IS, Õºbek N, Akpek NE and Ersoy E. Toxic neonatal methaemoglobinaemia after prilocaine administration for circumcision. BJU International 2000, 85 (9), 1-1.
Couper RTL. Methaemoglobinaemia secondary to topical lignocaine/prilocaine in a circumcised neonate. J Paediatr Child Health 2000;36(4):406-407.
Odemis E, Sonmez FM, Aslan Y. Toxic methemoglobinemia due to prilocaine injection after circumcision. Int Pediatr 2004;19(2):96-7.
Complications of Lack of Anesthesia
Ruff ML, Clarke TA, Harris JP, Bartels EK, Rosenzweig M. Myocardial injury following immediate postnatal circumcision. Am J Obstet Gynecol 1978; 144:850-51.
Auerbach MR, Scanlon JW. Recurrence of pneumothorax as a possible complication of circumcision. Am J Obstet Gynecol 1978; 132: 583.
Connelly KP, Shropshire LC, Salzberg A. Gastric rupture associated with prolonged crying in a newborn undergoing circumcision. Clin Pediatr 1992;31:560-61.
Lander J, Brady-Freyer B, Metcalfe JB, et al. Comparison of ring block, dorsal penile nerve block, and topical anesthesia for neonatal circumcision. JAMA 1997; 278:2158-2162.
Neurological Effects
Fitzgerald M. The birth of pain. MRC News 1998; Summer:20-23.
Fitzgerald M, Walker S. The role of activity in developing pain pathways. In: Dostovsky JO, Carr DB, Koltzenburg M (eds). Proceedings of the 10th World Congress on Pain. Progress in Pain Research and Management, Vol. 24. Seattle: IASP Press, 2003, pp 185-96.
Anesthesia and Analgesia
Weiss C. Does circumcision of the newborn require an anesthetic? Clin Pediatr (PHILA) 1968; 7: 128-9.
Kirya C, Werthmann MW Jr. Neonatal circumcision and penile dorsal nerve block--a painless procedure. J Pediatr 1978; 92: 998-1000.
Poma PA. Painless neonatal circumcision. Int J Gynaecol Obstet 1980; 18: 308-9.
Williamson PS, Williamson ML. Physiologic stress reduction by a local anesthetic during newborn circumcision. Pediatrics 1983; 71: 36-40.
Holve RL, Bromberger PJ, Groveman HD, et al. Regional anesthesia during newborn circumcision. Effect on infant pain response. Clin Pediatr Phila 1983; 22: 813-8.
Dixon S. Snyder J. Holve R. Bromberger P. Behavioral effects of circumcision with and without anesthesia. J Dev Behav Peds 1984; 5: 246-250.
Williamson PS, Evans ND. Neonatal cortisol response to circumcision with anesthesia. Clin Pediatr (Phila) 1986; 25: 412-5.
Anand KJ, Sippell WG, Aynsley-Green A. Randomised trial of fentanyl anaesthesia in preterm babies undergoing surgery: effects on the stress response. The Lancet 1987;1(8524):62-6.
Maxwell LG, Yaster M, Wetzel RC, Niebyl JR. Penile nerve block for newborn circumcision. Obstet Gynecol 1987; 70: 415-9.
Stang HJ, Gunnar MR, Snellman L, Condon LM, Kestenbaum R. Local anesthesia for neonatal circumcision. Effects on distress and cortisol response. JAMA 1988; 259: 1507-11.
Marchette L, Main R, Redick E. Pain reduction during neonatal circumcision. Pediatr Nurs 1989; 15: 207-8, 210.
Mudge D, Younger JB. The effects of topical lidocaine on infant response to circumcision. J Nurse Midwifery 1989; 34: 335-40.
Toffler WL, Sinclair AE, White KA. Dorsal penile nerve block during newborn circumcision: underutilization of a proven technique? J Am Board Fam Pract 1990; 3: 171-4.
Arnett RM, Jones JS, Horger EO. Effectiveness of 1% lidocaine dorsal penile nerve block in infant circumcision. Am J Obstet Gynecol 1990; 163: 1074-80.
Masciello AL. Anesthesia for neonatal circumcision: local anesthesia is better than dorsal penile nerve block. Obstet Gynecol 1990; 75: 834-8.
Blass EM, Hoffmeyer LB. Sucrose as an analgesic for newborn infants. Pediatrics 1991; 87: 215-8.
Marchette L, Main R, Redick E, Bagg A, Leatherland J. Pain reduction interventions during neonatal circumcision. Nurs Res 1991; 40: 241-4.
Spencer DM, Miller KA, OQuin M, Tomsovic JP, Anderson B, Wong D, Williams WE. Dorsal penile nerve block in neonatal circumcision: chloroprocaine versus lidocaine. Am J Perinatol 1992; 9: 214-8.
Benini F, Johnston CC, Faucher D, Aranda JV. Topical anesthesia during circumcision in newborn infants. JAMA 1993; 270: 850-3.
Weatherstone KB, Rasmussen LB, Erenberg A, Jackson EM, Claflin KS, Leff RD. Safety and efficacy of a topical anesthetic for neonatal circumcision. Pediatrics 1993; 92: 710-14.
Fontaine P, Dittberner D, Scheltema KE. The safety of dorsal penile nerve block for neonatal circumcision. J Fam Pract 1994; 39: 243-8.
Lander J, Brady-Freyer B, Metcalfe JB, et al. Comparison of ring block, dorsal penile nerve block, and topical anesthesia for neonatal circumcision. JAMA 1997; 278:2158-2162.
Van Howe RS. Anesthesia for neonatal circumcision: who benefits? J Pre Perinatal Psychol Health 1997; 12(1): 3-18.
Van Howe RS, Cold CJ. Local anesthesia for infants undergoing circumcision. JAMA 1998; 279: 1170.
Hardwick-Smith S, Mastrobattista JM, Wallace PA, Ritchey ML. Ring block for neonatal circumcision. Obstet Gynecol 1998;91(6):930-4.
Technique of DPNB and Ringblock Illustrated (Link to units.ox.ac.uk)
Taddio A, Pollock N, Gilbert-MacLeod C, et al. Combined analgesia and local anesthesia to minimize pain during circumcision. Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med 2000;154(6):620-3.
Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health, American Academy of Pediatrics; Task Force on Pain in Infants, Children, and Adolescents, American Pain Society. The assessment and management of acute pain in infants, children, and adolescents. Pediatrics 2001;108(3):793-7.
Post-Operative Analgesia
Howard CR, Howard FM, Weitzman ML. Acetaminophen analgesia in neonatal circumcision: the effect on pain. Pediatrics 1994; 93: 641-6.
Attitudes and Practices
Fontaine P. Local anesthesia for neonatal circumcisions: are family practice residents likely to use it? Fam Med 1990; 22: 371-5.
Wellington N, Rieder MJ. Attitudes and practices regarding analgesia for newborn circumcision. Pediatrics 1993; 92: 541-3.
Ryan CA, Finer NN. Changing attitudes and practices regarding local analgesia for newborn circumcision. Pediatrics 1994; 94: 230-3.
Garry T. Circumcision: a survey of fees and practices. OBG Management 1994. (October): 34-6.
Holton ME. Comparison of newborn circumcision pain to calcaneal heel puncture pain: Is newborn circumcision pain control clinically warranted? JAOA 1996; 96: 31-3.
Howard CR, Howard FM, Garfunkel LC, de Blieck EA, Weitzman M. Neonatal circumcision and pain relief: current training practices. Pediatrics 1998; 101:423-428.
Stang HJ, Snellman LW. Circumcision practice patterns in the United States. Pediatrics 1998; 101: e5. Link to AAP website
Robert S. Van Howe, Megan Butler-O'Hara, Christine LeMoine, and Ronnie Guillet. Pain Relief for Neonatal Circumcision: Serious Design Flaws? Pediatrics 1999 103: 196.
Sinno SHP, van Dijk M, Anand KS, et al. Do We Still Hurt Newborn Babies? A Prospective Study of Procedural Pain and Analgesia in Neonates. Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med 2003;157:1058-64.
Howard RF. Current Status of Pain Management in Children. JAMA 2003;290(18):2464-9.
Standard of Care
American Academy of Pediatrics. Neonatal anesthesia. Pediatrics 1987;80(3):446.
Fletcher AB. Pain in the neonate. (Editorial) N Engl J Med 1987;317(21):1347-1348.
American Academy of Pediatrics. Committee on Fetus and Newborn, Committee on Drugs, Section on Anesthesiology, Section on Surgery. Prevention and Management of Pain and Stress in the Neonate. Pediatrics 2000;105(2):454-461.
Anand KJS, International Evidence-Based Group for Neonatal Pain. Consensus statement for the prevention and management of pain in the newborn. Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med 2001;155:173-180.
Ethics
Walco GA, Cassidy RC, Schechter NL. Pain, Hurt and Harm: The ethics of pain control in infants and children. N Engl J Med 331(8), Aug 25 1994, 541-544.
Dollberg S, Stolik-Dollberg O. [Prevention and pain management in term and preterm infants] Harefuah 2004;143(1):54-9, 84.
Informed Consent
Council on Scientific Affairs, American Medical Association. Report 10: Neonatal circumcision. Chicago: American Medical Association, 1999.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wmw999 2,178]

If I were making the decision now I would suggest not doing it. The Hippocratic Oath says something like "first, do no harm." And the "benefits" don't seem to justify the potential for harm (yes, it's there). I would have to be convinced that it should be done, not that it should not.

What my then-husband and I decided when our son was born is his decision to divulge to anyone besides the (gulp ) women he might be with.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Alias 0]

Over 60% polled say "I am cut and happy about it"

...says something

Although I don't have the time to dive into your reading list, (thank you though) there seems to be a plethora of opinions available, by prestigious medical centers, that include topics based on the benefets of it.

The majority do not mention the pain crisis you are convinced must scar a child. Seems that is a newer trend started in the 70's. "Trendy"

I'm sure no cut men here remember it, my sons, brothers and father don't -


So, whats your point again?

Carpe Diem

[billvon 2,476]

>I'm sure no cut men here remember it . . .

I'll bet you don't remember learning to walk either, but the experience sure changed you. Early experiences _do_ affect children. That being said, sedation would make the experience no more unpleasant than any other childhood medical procedure.

[airtwardo 6]

I'm sure no cut men here remember it . . .


***

But last year my 13 year old went through it, and I have a bit of an idea.

It was of course done after he was put 'under'.

He woke up in recovery, scared shitless and HAD to know right then 'how much' was taken off!
Bandages removed for his inspection then reapplied,
two hours later we took him home...about then the pain meds started wearing off...

I would have to say,
after going 'through' the experience with him...

It really - really "IS" rather painful having the
end of your dick cut off, and then sewn up again...
and the healing process is no week at Six Flags either.

If this 'custom' is a good thing...
I say we go back to binding womens feet too...they're so much easier to catch when they're hobbled!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[IanHarrop 37]

Thank you for providing more documentation to support my opinion that circumcision hurts.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[TrophyHusband 0]

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Sorry for you.

don't feel sorry for me, my wife is the ob/gyn. she's the one who has to smell them.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[starkmtn 0]

I think it's absolutely barbaric. All one has to do is teach his child how to wash correctly underneath the foreskin and it's not going to be a problem. We rant and rave about "primitive cultures" in Africa that engage in female genital mutilation, but turn a blind eye to the thousands of infants to whom this happens every day in our own country.

"You guys should just do CRW. There are so many more ways to get killed, it makes a CYPRES seem safe." -Kevin Keenan

[SkyDekker 1,155]

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That being said, sedation would make the experience no more unpleasant than any other childhood medical procedure.

Exactly, my boy never shed a tear....

Wendy, the oath may say that, but using that argument, most forms of cosmetic surgery should not be perfomed either......

[rhys 0]

here is something i have often wondered?
i am a full man(uncut) and when i have an erection the foreskin actually becomes part of the shaft(not unlike the 10litre extention on a climbing pack) so this tells me that a circumsised male has had the extention capabilities somewhat restricted.

=shorter erect penis

what are your thoghts on this?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[misskriss 0]

I'm having a baby boy and I'm NOT having him circumcised. I have already received shit from it from my family saying he will be teased, etc. My fiance isn't circumcised and I definitely like it like that. He was the first man I'd been with that is uncircumcised and I dig it.


I don't know what the hang up is here in the states with the whole deal. No one is cutting my baby's pee pee.

[penniless 0]

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I'm having a baby boy and I'm NOT having him circumcised. I have already received shit from it from my family saying he will be teased, etc. My fiance isn't circumcised and I definitely like it like that. He was the first man I'd been with that is uncircumcised and I dig it.


I don't know what the hang up is here in the states with the whole deal. No one is cutting my baby's pee pee.

100% agreement here. I bet girls who say they don't like it have never tried it with a complete male.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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My friend was born missing part of his eyelid, so they used his foreskin to graft one on. It works fine now, he is just a bit cockeyed.

.

Doesn't his eye swell shut during sex?

[JohnMitchell 14]

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I think it's absolutely barbaric. All one has to do is teach his child how to wash correctly underneath the foreskin and it's not going to be a problem. We rant and rave about "primitive cultures" in Africa that engage in female genital mutilation, but turn a blind eye to the thousands of infants to whom this happens every day in our own country.

The female genital mutilation prcacticed in some parts of the world is a clitorectomy, not a hood mod. This will hamper, if not destroy, a woman's ability to have an orgasm. My cut job has never given me any problem in that department. You're mixing apples and oranges.

[Lindsey 0]

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>I'm sure no cut men here remember it . . .

I'll bet you don't remember learning to walk either, but the experience sure changed you. Early experiences _do_ affect children. That being said, sedation would make the experience no more unpleasant than any other childhood medical procedure.

I've never seen a child sedated for a circumcision. After seeing many of them, I will NEVER perform an unnecessary circumcision on a child. If someone decides he wants one as an adult, that's a different issue.

Peace~
linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[hungarianchick 0]

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using that argument, most forms of cosmetic surgery should not be perfomed either......

Cosmetic surgeries are done under consent of the patient. A newborn doesn't have that luxury.

"I love cooking with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food."

[hungarianchick 0]

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and to be honest I wouldn't want that thing rubbing round my under crackers without a little protection - it's far too sensitive. The only conclusion I've been able to come to is that cut men must be less sensitive as I simply wouldn't be able to put up with that sensation...

My ex was uncut and he always hated having a hard-on in his pants because the fabric rubbing against his pride and joy was rather unpleasant. He often said he felt sorry for his circumcised brethren.

I honestly believe the tip of the circumcised penis becomes desensitized over time due to constant rubbing against fabric thus making sex less enjoyable.

"I love cooking with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food."

[SpeedRacer 1]

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I honestly believe the tip of the circumcised penis becomes desensitized over time due to constant rubbing against fabric thus making sex less enjoyable.

NO, it doesn't!

Speed Racer
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