Is Tom Cruise Certifiably Wacko?

[Rebecca 0]

Well, you've already figured out everything I was going to say:

Your opinion is worthless since you've never been depressed, there is NO alternative but drugs to combat depression, we know absolutely everything about our brains that there is to know, and science will make no progress to better alternatives without drugs.

I know you don't know me from Eve, so I'll just let you in on something:

I'm neither ignorant nor judgemental nor closed-minded enough to categorically discount everything you've said. In fact, I agree with several points, mainly that one day we will progress to better diagnostics and treatments advanced enough to counter diseases, including depression, with less and less reliance on drugs.

I do feel however that for those properly diagnosed, these drugs can be the start of a permanent solution to depression. For the time being at least, these drugs are the best option for people like me.

They can be a catalyst for change at a time when you might need help most yet feel powerless to take action.

After wrangling with the concept that I was actually depressed, and then fighting against drugs as something to be avoided and ashamed of, I finally got a Rx.

It "put the floor back under me", which helped restore enough confidence in me to actually seek therapy. (Michele, I use the same term - that's exactly what it feels like)

It's going well, I feel better every day, and I'm looking forward to quitting the Rx. For now though, thank God and science I have it, and thank God I don't listen to idiots like Tom Cruise.

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[Shotgun 1]

Ok, now that this has been moved to SC... I can say that I don't think Scientology is any more wacko than Christianity is... And actually I don't consider either one of them to be "wacko"... but they both have about the same amount of validity in my opinion.

And I don't know much about Tom Cruise except that he seems to have done a very good job of getting a lot of people to talk about him lately.

[wmw999 2,134]

Everyone has different priorities, different abilities, and different values. And, ya know, there isn't one right one of any of those.

I'm perfectly willing to bet that the vast majority of clinically depressed Scientologists aren't medicated. It's an assault on their value system (and those of us who read SC know what that means ), and they're more than willing to invest the TIME into working on it themselves, and their support systems, largely scientologists also, are willing to help.

However, if your value system doesn't see using drugs as the worst possible thing, and you have a real life, and your support system isn't as heavily invested in "the one true way," well, antidepressants work for many people. Chemical imbalance is real (duh!).

I never ask someone to carry my bags out to the car from the grocery store. If I had two kids, or a bad back, or 27 bags, I would. Heck, I used to even when I only had 1 kid to wrangle.

The only people to worry about are the ones who have found "the one true way," or who see the world in terms or right-and-wrong, with no choice left in between.

Of course, my boyfriend tells me to quit offering options to him, and just tell him what I want (or what I want him to do ). So I guess one can go too far in the other direction, too, huh.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

I am of the mind that the results of this study span across all functions of the brain and that one day in the futur, our great-grandchildren will read about drugs like ridalin being used for ADD and liken it to the way we now read about labodomies having once being the cure for terrets syndrome.

Am I too outspoken?

No, you are not too outspoken. A little personal anecdote:

I took ADHD meds (Desoxyn) between age 8 and 18. I had learned coping mechanisms that made the use of them unnecessary for over a decade. During that time I failed out of college, got back in to college, graduated, got a commission, went to law school, graduated, passed the bar the first time, and generally kicked ass.

However, changes in circumstances left me struggling to cope with new things. ADHD came back with a vengeance, and I needed help. What the shame was is that it took so long for me to admit my difficulty handling things. I'd been able to handle the past ten or twelve years just fine.

Adderall helped, but in more ways than one. It helped not just with a quick fix, but it alos allowed me to better receive some other help and learn other skills. It is NOT an end-all, be-all. THese medications have never been represented at a panacea.

The best way to think about this is playing baseball without a glove. Often times, these medications give you that glove. Does it make you a Golden Glove winner? Nope. Does it help you win a batting title? Nope. It helps you perform your job to standard. It's easier to drop a ball without a glove, though you can learn to catch without it. It's up to the person to get good with it.

For most, you cannot simply drop out of the game.

These drugs and medicines are useful to help a person learn to live without them. Hopefully I can, soon.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[goose491 0]

Quote

Well, you've already figured out everything I was going to say:

Not at all girl

Quote

I do feel however that for those properly diagnosed, these drugs can be the start of a permanent solution to depression. For the time being at least, these drugs are the best option for people like me.

They can be a catalyst for change at a time when you might need help most yet feel powerless to take action.

And very well said. Come on, I'm not placing myself above anyone here. This is now. Then was then... and tomorow?

Tom Cruise says there is no place for phsyc drugs today. What got people flaming me is that I stated he is ahead of his time because there should be no place for phsyc drugs in the future.

I'm glad things worked out for you the way they did Rebecca. And should your great grandchild have similar problems, I truly hope there are even better ways to help her.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Rebecca 0]

Quote

Tom Cruise says there is no place for phsyc drugs today. What got people flaming me is that I stated he is ahead of his time because there should be no place for phsyc drugs in the future.

I'm glad things worked out for you the way they did Rebecca. And should your great grandchild have similar problems, I truly hope there are even better ways to help her.

I don't know about "should" when it comes to psych. drugs - maybe we'll never get beyond them, maybe they'll improve drastically, hopefully we'll eliminate them. I doubt we'll ever eliminate the things that cause depression in the first place. I just don't think society is structured that way. Therefore "should" is too strong a word for me...

And "ahead of his time" is frankly way too complimentary for Tom's views, but I see your point. Delusional visionary maybe?

Thanks for your kind words. And I hope no descendant of mine has to go through this. It ain't fun.

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[Michele 1]

Quote

What got people flaming me is that I stated he is ahead of his time because there should be no place for phsyc drugs in the future.

And goodness, I hope that someday in the future, cancer and AIDs and other killing illnesses are cured, and there's no need for medical treatments at all for them, either.

Why isolate it to mental illness and psychotropic drugs? Why not include the hope - utopian that it is at this time - that all illnesses of the body are cured?

And you weren't flamed...questioned, and disagreed with, yes...but that was no flaming at all.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[goose491 0]

Quote

Why isolate it to mental illness and psychotropic drugs? Why not include the hope - utopian that it is at this time - that all illnesses of the body are cured?

Oh I certainly do! And it's not hope, it's knowledge. I know that disorders can be 'cured' via will and will alone. Moreso, just sort of 'cease to exist' as oppose to exist needing to be cured. It just involves a butt-load more positive thinking. It must first become common knowledge... the 100th monkey phenomenon to make it real.

Quote

And you weren't flamed...questioned, and disagreed with, yes...but that was no flaming at all.

Granted I used the term a little liberally... like "Certifiably Whacko" lol.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[ticca 0]

Quote

Quote

Why isolate it to mental illness and psychotropic drugs? Why not include the hope - utopian that it is at this time - that all illnesses of the body are cured?

Oh I certainly do! And it's not hope, it's knowledge. I know that disorders can be 'cured' via will and will alone. Moreso, just sort of 'cease to exist' as oppose to exist needing to be cured. It just involves a butt-load more positive thinking. It must first become common knowledge... the 100th monkey phenomenon to make it real.

OK, I'll bite....how do you KNOW that all disorders can be cured by will alone? On what evidence do you make this statement? What is this "100th monkey" theory that you speak of? If you are going to make a statement that is, at least in my humble opinion, completely idealistic and unrealistic with no real understanding of the factors of disease control, then you must back it up.

Kinda reminds me of Tom and his self proclaimed extensive knowledge of psychiatry.

Success is never final and failure never fatal. It's courage that counts.
George F. Tiltonood

[IanHarrop 37]

Quote

I know that disorders can be 'cured' via will and will alone.

I'm starting to worry that you might be "Certifiably Whacko"

Granted I am using the term a little liberally...

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[goose491 0]

Quote

Quote

I know that disorders can be 'cured' via will and will alone.

I'm starting to worry that you might be "Certifiably Whacko"

Granted I am using the term a little liberally...

Oh no you aren't.

... because Oh yes I AM! lol

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Rebecca 0]

'K, so now that many of us have confirmed that we do indeed think Tom is rather cukoo these days, one question remains:

Are you gonna see War of the Worlds anyway?

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[goose491 0]

Quote

OK, I'll bite....how do you KNOW that all disorders can be cured by will alone? On what evidence do you make this statement? What is this "100th monkey" theory that you speak of? If you are going to make a statement that is, at least in my humble opinion, completely idealistic and unrealistic with no real understanding of the factors of disease control, then you must back it up.

Kinda reminds me of Tom and his self proclaimed extensive knowledge of psychiatry.

This is not a troll. It is not a self proclaimed extensive knowledge of pshychiatry or of any other scientific profession.

It is a thing of faith and no more.

And the 100th monkey phenomenon is what... makes things so. In a world where we create our own realities and are limited by no more than what we, as a collective, beleive is possible and not.

This is where some of you write off my posts as hippy-tree-huggin-friend-of-Jesus-Talk but hey... I just might be crazy you never know.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Michele 1]

Goose, I don't write off your thoughts as that. They have merit; indeed, some medical conditions can be addressed - and even prevented, in some cases - by diet, will, and whatnot. However, I asked a question above, and didn't seem to see the answer.

What should we do in the mean time?

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[goose491 0]

Quote

What should we do in the mean time?

Why... take drugs of course!

lol

No seriously, it's most important to me that nobody think I discredit the answers we have. Like I have posted, I am very happy my mother had the opportunities she did to help right herself... chemicals though they may be.

I'm just preaching away like the crazed, side-of-the-street prophet that I am because I think it truly takes a collection of minds thinking along the same pattern for things to change. So "In the meantime", I would say it is best to do the best we can. i.e. Use the solutions we have developed. But do so understanding that we are young as beings. We need to explore ourselves more... We need to know we are capable of much more; to agree that we are all capable of much more... does that make any sense?

So when do you come off the walker for the crutches? When do you come off the crutches for the cane?... and when do you burn the cane and walk on your own two feet?

I feel it worthy to note that when I busted my leg in an accident, I went from bed, to walker, to crutches to cane... the cane was the only thing I had to go out and buy myself.

My father said something very interesting: "Son, make sure you buy an ugly cane."

He said people walk around in their old age with canes they could have done away with a long time ago but coming off it is such a minute step that it's really hard to recognize. Before long, it is accepted that this is just the way. That they will always be more comfortable with it. He presented buying an ugly one just to add that little bit of extra desire to rid myself of it.

Drugs are... ugly (?).. in my opinion.

(Edited for spelling)

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Rebecca 0]

Quote

We need to explore ourselves more... We need to know we are capable of much more; to agree that we are all capable of much more... does that make any sense?

Yup, makes sense. We are still learning to crawl though, grasshopper. We got a long way to go if we're gonna fly through depression without drugs.

And, though I understand the analogy, I prefer the statement, "Drugs are a crutch". They help you stand and move when you'd otherwise be paralyzed, but they're not a permanent solution. Who wants to limp on a crutch forever instead of running free?

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[ticca 0]

Quote

And the 100th monkey phenomenon is what... makes things so. In a world where we create our own realities and are limited by no more than what we, as a collective, beleive is possible and not.

This is where some of you write off my posts as hippy-tree-huggin-friend-of-Jesus-Talk but hey... I just might be crazy you never know.

I am not going to to write your ideas and opinions off. I think the world needs a bit more hippy-tree-hugging talk. However while I do believe the mind is powerful and mindset can make a huge difference in the outcome of many diseases, I also believe that we are a long way from realistically doing away with drugs, if we do ever.

In other words, it is a powerful idea and a nice concept, but I am not sure if it is based in realitity.

Edited to add: Are you talking about doing away with drugs to treat mental illmess or drugs to treat all disease?

Success is never final and failure never fatal. It's courage that counts.
George F. Tiltonood

[Michele 1]

Hi, Goose.

I don't disagree with a thing you're saying; as a matter of fact, developing a spiritual understanding of the possibilities inherent in this universe is something I've been doing for a while.

Agreement completely from this quarter.

The only danger I see - and will continue to speak out against - is the difficulty of people who have a chronic illness, and grasp any excuse to not take medication. Any excuse. Did I say "any" ?

When you're at the bottom, it's so much easier to fight it the way you know how - even though it doesn't work. You smile, you are optimistic, you have hope and faith. And then, when that doesn't work, you spiral downwards into the abyss...because it's just one more thing you've failed at, and you're a horrible person, a waste of oxygen and it's time to make this stop, forever, please God let this hurt stop...

Taking meds puts the floor back under you. The descent has been stopped, chemically as it may be. Once the floor is under you, you can begin to learn new coping mechanisms, and begin to rebuild your life. But the floor must be there for you to begin to crawl (to use Rebecca's comment). It's that part of things that people don't realize.

You can't buyild a life while you're tumbling away from it. Something must be done in the meantime to stop the tumbling...and then the reconstruction can begin.

And the issue I take is with those who scream "don't take drugs! Exercise and use vitamins instead!!" or "do therapy!" or "I know the best new age thing...crystals and herbs and positive thinking and guru following," when the truth is it's incredibly dangerous to do so. The floor does not come, at this time, from that direction.

Do I think some drugs are overprescribed? Absolutely. No doubt. And the people who use them "casually" don't even understand how they work. When I overhear someone saying "I had a bad day, so I took a prozac and now I feel better," I can't help but think that some significant aspect to this whole thing is missing. Like education. And I also think that anti-biotics are overprescribed, as well.

There still is a stigma for taking psychotropic drugs. There still is a wide divide between those who use them and need them, and social acceptance. There was a thread here some time ago which used the term "admit to taking antiidepressants." Why admit to that? nothing wrong...unless society still uses that as a weapon against you.

More recently, and on a current thread, the comment was made that using a diagnosis of anything less than normal (whatever that is...) can be used against you in court, in the workplace, and in your life. I've recently experienced first hand how the stigma of medication damages you. And I've watched someone else get fired because of his depression and talking about it to his boss.

And in this thread, Anne commented about her battle with depression, and someone told her how courageous she was to be talking about it. I agree - it's damned courageous to be talking about it; but to have that opinion means that it's also dangerous to discuss it...which, honestly, it is.

Yes, there is still a gigantic amount of work we need to do as a society. And we are barely crawling...

Thanks for the discussion; it's always interesting to hear what people think.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[goose491 0]

Quote

And, though I understand the analogy, I prefer the statement, "Drugs are a crutch". They help you stand and move when you'd otherwise be paralyzed, but they're not a permanent solution. Who wants to limp on a crutch forever instead of running free?

In my analogy, I went from bed, to walker, to crutches to cane. In terms of dealing with mental disorders... I guess:

-"Oogga-booga-Oooga.. Eek arg!", combined with the frenzied clubbing and stoning of the poor Neanderthal whose social skills just never quite seemed to fit the bill for the rest.

That was the hospital Bed

-"That person is possessed by demons!", and the efforts put forth to exile the different one or to exorcise said demons via different techniques or .

That was the walker

-Lobotomies, plain pain, life in a cage, and later, stuff like unnecessary shock treatment.

Those were the crutches and,

Drugs... drugs are the cane.

Today, we all walk around very well. Some do so with the aid of a cane, some without. Some of us lean hard on that cane because we cannot get around without it. Some of us use the cane only because we think we need it. (Heck, some of us only use the cane on the weekend for a little fun!)

One thing remains constant though, there is a definite lack of minds beleiving we will ever be a people who can all walk proudly, independent of external support.


I should be shouting this stuff out on my street corner

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[goose491 0]

Ticca, Michelle and Rebecca,

I am happy that you are beginning to see what it is I am saying.

But it is not: "Don't take drugs!"

It is: "Understand that one day, we will not have to. And that this day will not come until most of us do. And if you don't believe, you are a hindrance to this day ever dawning."

Furthermore: "Now that they (drugs) have helped you back on your feet, understand that they are an ugly cane. You now have the ability to get around, to live a normal life... if your head is 'righted' by these drugs, then use it now and change your mind. Know that you can. KNOW that you can so that you can teach your children that they can and not doubt yourself in the least as you do. That they might grow up confidently with this knowledge."

At the very least, I hope you are all entertained
That's it for me today and I'm off for a 4 day weekend! Have a great one guys!

Peace, Love and Hippy-tree-huggin' happiness.

Nick

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Michele 1]

Quote

I am happy that you are beginning to see what it is I am saying.

I've "understood" those concepts for about 20 years...

Quote

Understand that one day, we will not have to. And that this day will not come until most of us do. And if you don't believe, you are a hindrance to this day ever dawning.

Sadly, I suppose I can then be counted as a hindrance. Because I know that the drugs I use keep me stable, and keep the floor under me. The rest is up to me; but the floor has to be there for me to begin to work from.

I'd rather not have someone thinking I am a hindrance, but it's that sort of thought process - the calling someone a hindrance for using medication - which creates a stigma and an amazing unwillingness to move to a point that one takes the meds appropriately. I don't use the meds as an attention getting device, or as a crutch. I use them to stay alive. The same way someone with diabetes uses insulin to stay alive.

Quote

Furthermore: "Now that they (drugs) have helped you back on your feet, understand that they are an ugly cane. You now have the ability to get around, to live a normal life... if your head is 'righted' by these drugs, then use it now and change your mind. Know that you can. KNOW that you can so that you can teach your children that they can and not doubt yourself in the least as you do. That they might grow up confidently with this knowledge."

As confidently as I did several years ago, and threw away my crutch. And found myself at such a place within months - depsite not wanting to, despite knowing that I wasn't sick anymore, despite it all - I was not simply contemplating suicide, but actively looking for ways to carry it out.

To not recognize illness for what it is - illness - is to insist that someone would be well if they just thought differently, understood things differently, used more mantras and more positive thinking; spend hundreds of thousands on motivational seminars, gurus, and charlatans...to "exercise and use vitamins" as the beginning of this particular thread started.

And it doesn't work; at least right now. So to stay alive, to perhaps be able to have children to teach them differently, to keep developing myself spiritually, mentally, and emotionally, to build a life I want- I will continue to be a "hindrance", as you say, and take my medication.

For when I threw the cane away, I fell faster down the abyss than you could imagine. I wasn't even aware I was falling until I crashed onto the rocks below. And I know - from personal experience and experience with friends - that the abyss yawns ever so closely to those of us with a chemical imbalance.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Muenkel 0]

If the human body can be born with any type of incurable defect, then what makes you think the brain cannot have any type of defect?

_________________________________________
Chris

[Kris 0]

Quote

What is it they say? We don't use more than some 10 percent of our brains? So then how is it you could be so quick to try and debunk someone who's opinion is that the answer lies within?

Actually, that's taken out of context. Human beings utilize every single neuron, axon, and ganglion in our noggins.

We just don't need to use them all at once. For any given task, we only need to access ~ 8-15%, IIRC.

As an example, if you're smelling flowers, you don't need to fire up the portion required to do complex math, etc...

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[Rebecca 0]

Quote

Apparently he knows more about psychiatry and treating ADHD than most anyone.

I think this cat is off his onion. And I think he's been this way for a while, but the image spinners eventually just lost control of him.

How long till his new squeeze dumps him?

Well, now that he's knocked her up, I think she's stuck with him for a while...

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[StreetScooby 5]

Quote

...now that he's knocked her up,

I thought she was a virgin!

We are all engines of karma