Holy War?????

[mailin 0]

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Even if he does love America, I wonder why he never has anything good to say about it here.

Gee, such a strong statement coming from someone who knows nothing about the person your directing that about. I'm sure the rest of us can come to some grand assumptions about you based on your postings on an internet website too. Arrogant being the least of them I'm sure.

From my personal experience, your're dead wrong by the way...

Jen

Arianna Frances

[Zenister 0]

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in sheer volume of death/torture rendered.

\

volume is relative to the ones being tortured....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[skydyvr 0]

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volume is relative to the ones being tortured....

Well yea, if you're the one being tortured or killed, it really doesn't matter who else it's happening to, if that's what you mean. However, that doesn't make Billvon's comparison the least bit sensible.

. . =(_8^(1)

[Skyrad 0]

I think dead is dead whatever the reason that you killed or were killed for at that point if you were right about your belifes then your going to be ok, I supose if you were fighting for the money its then pointless. I think most poeple fight for survival of themselfs and their mates, in that situation 'why' you are there is no longer important.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Mirage63 0]

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Comparing "the latest tortures/homicides by US interrogators" and the "daily massacres by Muslims against other Muslims" is ridiculously invalid on several levels, most especially in sheer volume of death/torture rendered. Completely ridiculous.

Yeah don't ban me, but I think Bill lost this one. There is some sort of disconnect that our society (western world) and the Muslim world that I don't understand.

If the Baptist started blowing the Methodist up the Baptist would become very unpopular, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

Deep stuff...........I'd rather just skydive.

BTW-I saw Bill smile (once) at Kates 100 ways....he tried to hide it but several people saw it.

[wmw999 2,149]

A holy war allows one to redefine atrocities as OK because they're "for a greater cause". Most (but not all) people realize that money and territory isn't necessarily worth torturing/mass graves/whatever over. But hey -- "protecting our ancestral homeland?" "defending our faith and the one true God?"
Bring it on. "God knows we're only doing it for Him"

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[wmw999 2,149]

John, he's posted a number of times that he doesn't hate America, that he really likes the freedom and opportunities here. I have a feeling that if we were subject to what he considers to be a real threat, he'd be volunteering to fight, since he's in the right age range.

But he doesn't think that groupthink is something worth fighting for. I happen to agree.

Americans tend to have a very ethnocentric view of the world and life. Maybe, just maybe, there are other viewpoints; at the very least whose existence (if not substance) is worthy of defense.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Ron 7]

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John, he's posted a number of times that he doesn't hate America, that he really likes the freedom and opportunities here. I have a feeling that if we were subject to what he considers to be a real threat, he'd be volunteering to fight, since he's in the right age range.

I doubt he would fight.

He also has posted time after time threads that are bashing America, and while not defending the terrorists, he never mentions them doing bad things.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[crozby 0]

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You left out a couple of others in your love for your fellow man:

The desire to see 50 million Muslims live free from tyranny, and to make the world a safer place.

Gee, I don't know how you could have missed that motive, with all that love you have for America.

Actually there were 24,683,313 people in Iraq in 2003, quite a few less than that now. And they're not exactly free from tyranny by any stretch of the imagination.

And even your own government has reported that the world is not a safer place now.

[AdD 1]

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Maybe I am wrong, but I think that Al Qaeda and all the other affiliates are fighting the US mostly to keep them from influencing their respective countries with western thinking. So their "Holy War" is really a war on change.

Common misconception, though the one favored by the US administration because it helps create a sense of innocent victimizition. US foreign policy has directly killed/oppressed so many innocent Arabs by now it kind of surprises me that more blowback attacks haven't taken place. The explanation you refer to is completely refuted by a book called "Good Muslim, Bad Muslim" by an African fellow named Mamoud Mamdani, should you care to look into it.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[Darius11 12]

I just read the replays. I have been sitting here wondering should I even post anything.

I decided I might as well.

To Ron- I don’t think you and me have ever agreed on much except on time where I actually agreed with you after you showed me a different perspective. I thank you for that.

I am surprised that you would assume to know what I would fight for or not fight for.
If you do have the military experience you speak of or have been in a life threatening satiation you know as well as I do that many talk hard and act cool, but when a gun is pulled or shots are fired become weak and afraid. So words are just words. For me I always say what I do and do what I say. You can choose to believe that or not. It really doesn’t matter. If I am ever to be judged on who I am as a man I will leave that judgment to God and no one else. My friends and family know who I am that’s all that matters to me.

I think it takes more strength more honor for a man to stand up for what he believes in and not to be one of the sheep especially so when the majority seem to disagree with you. I have stood up for what I believe in and will continue to do so. Most of you don’t even understand that is much harder to say anything negative about the government when you were born in a country that is considered the enemy. Every response that you can think of I have heard. Go back to you country, Love it or leave it, and so on and so on.
I have always spoken my mind and will continue to do so. I have always fought for what I believe in.

I will not fight for what I don’t believe in. So would I have served for the Iraq war No let me make that a Hell no I knew it was all BS from day one. You can check my posts to see that.
9-11 as have stated before my application was in the FBI the day I found out they were looking for people that speak Farsi and English.


To John- John I really don’t have much to say to you. Every post you have ever made to me has been angry and hateful even when you post to me on Bonfire it is the same. I see you as someone who just hates me for what I am no matter who I am. So go-head and hate all you want. I have a great life, I get to skydive when I want, and have friends I would die for. That should really piss you off.


To everyone else thank you for your kind words.

I have no idea how this thread became about who I am. I was really wondering what’s the difference if you kill in the name of god or if you kill for economical reasons.

To me there both wrong. More fucked up if you do it for money. I can not and will not put a value on human life.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Mirage63 0]

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Most of you don’t even understand that is much harder to say anything negative about the government when you were born in a country that is considered the enemy.

The above really got me thinking. I bet it really would be a weird situation. (OTOH I have no idea where you are from.)

So I mention this in the same token that your comment was taken.

Do you have any idea what it's like to listen to people put down your country, when some, NOT ALL make comments that are just wrong?

Of course you do, sounds like it's happen to you.

Your comment really gave me something to think about, perhaps if you changed the wording a little you could see where some other people are coming from.

But hey I know better than to reply to these things, I'd really rather be skydiving

[Darius11 12]

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Most of you don’t even understand that is much harder to say anything negative about the government when you were born in a country that is considered the enemy.

The above really got me thinking. I bet it really would be a weird situation. (OTOH I have no idea where you are from.)

So I mention this in the same token that your comment was taken.

Do you have any idea what it's like to listen to people put down your country, when some, NOT ALL make comments that are just wrong?

Of course you do, sounds like it's happen to you.

Your comment really gave me something to think about, perhaps if you changed the wording a little you could see where some other people are coming from.

But hey I know better than to reply to these things, I'd really rather be skydiving

I understand what you mean 100%

But is pointing out things we have done wrong or are doing wrong talking bad about a country?
I have said this many times befor. Being able to speak openly with out fear is what makes this country great.
The fact that I can say I do not like are presidents pollicies and not get imprisoned is what makes this country great. IMHO This is the best place to live on this planet but is it perfect? no. Can we improve? Yes

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[JohnRich 4]

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>How come we haven't heard you condemn any of these daily
>massacres by Muslims against other Muslims?

Nor have we heard you condemn the latest tortures/homicides by US interrogators. Does that mean you support torture?

Comparing "the latest tortures/homicides by US interrogators" and the "daily massacres by Muslims against other Muslims" is ridiculously invalid on several levels, most especially in sheer volume of death/torture rendered. Completely ridiculous.

Yeah, the Muslims kill far more of their own innocents than we do.

And one more difference: when an American abuses an Iraqii, they are brought to trial and justice is done. So who is holding the terrorists accountable for their actions against innocent civilians? No one. In fact, many Muslims praise them for their murderous acts.

[JohnRich 4]

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Even if he does love America, I wonder why he never has anything good to say about it here.

Gee, such a strong statement coming from someone who knows nothing about the person your directing that about.

I go by what I see here. And what I see is a long string of anti-American messages. Actions speak louder than words.

[JohnRich 4]

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"protecting our ancestral homeland?" "defending our faith and the one true God?" Bring it on. "God knows we're only doing it for Him"

That's one of the illogical things about the terrorist actions.

1) They want us out of their country.
2) The only reason we're there at this point is to bring security.
3) As long as they continue to massacre the populace, there isn't security.

So if they want us out quickly, they'll just stop all their killing, which will allow us to pull up and go home, and then everyone can be at peace again.

Except that then they would go back to civil war with the various Muslim factions killing each other again.

[Frenchy68 0]

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Actions speak louder than words.

...yet you base your judgement on words typed?

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[JohnRich 4]

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You left out a couple of others in your love for your fellow man:

The desire to see 50 million Muslims live free from tyranny, and to make the world a safer place.

Gee, I don't know how you could have missed that motive, with all that love you have for America.

Actually there were 24,683,313 people in Iraq in 2003... And they're not exactly free from tyranny...

Try including Afghanistan also, for the other 25 million.

They're free from the tyranny of Hussein and the Taliban. The only tyranny they have now is from their fellow Muslims who continue to inflict violence upon their own citizenry.

[JohnRich 4]

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Actions speak louder than words.

...yet you base your judgement on words typed?

Those are "actions".

He says he loves America, oh, every once in a while.

But he continuously criticises America. This one outweighs the other.

If makes the former just look like a trick to deflect criticism against him for this stances. If he's going to make those kind of postings, he has to be willing to face the fire for it. If he's going to suggest that the Iraqii war is about profits, he should be willing to take the heat for it.

We all know this thread isn't some philosophical discussion about wars for religion versus profit. He's referring to the current Iraqii conflict. And it was not done for profit. Don't you remember all the stuff about "weapons of mass destruction"? That wasn't about profit. So once again, he's just being clever trying to criticize the current war, while trying to immunize himself from rebuttals. It's a way to address an issue, IMO.

[Frenchy68 0]

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Those are "actions".

...written words are as much action as spoken ones, IMO.

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He says he loves America, oh, every once in a while.
But he continuously criticises America. This one outweighs the other

The subjects discussed in SC tend to be controversal, and invite open criticism. Someone fuming at gun laws in a certain state does not mean that someone wants that particular state obliterated from the face of the earth.

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He's referring to the current Iraqii conflict. And it was not done for profit.

I do not know of 1 war that wasn't caused by the desire to "profit" from victory. The people on the ground may be fighting for noble ideas and causes, but the people at the top have a tendency to make sure they (not necessarily as individuals, but also as the leaders of a country and its people) come out on the "profitable" end of the stick. The liberation of France and Western Europe in 1944/1945 had as much to do with defeating Nazism (which was already well on the way) as it had with making sure that the spere of influence of the US and its allies would prevail over the Soviet Union.

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Don't you remember all the stuff about "weapons of mass destruction"?

Yes I do. Not there to be found. Was it possibly an "excuse" to justify an action motivated by other "things"?
My thoughts...

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[beowulf 1]

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Maybe I am wrong, but I think that Al Qaeda and all the other affiliates are fighting the US mostly to keep them from influencing their respective countries with western thinking. So their "Holy War" is really a war on change.

Common misconception, though the one favored by the US administration because it helps create a sense of innocent victimizition. US foreign policy has directly killed/oppressed so many innocent Arabs by now it kind of surprises me that more blowback attacks haven't taken place. The explanation you refer to is completely refuted by a book called "Good Muslim, Bad Muslim" by an African fellow named Mamoud Mamdani, should you care to look into it.

I have never heard of that book. So explain to me how the US has directly killed and oppressed Arabs. How do they justify their "Holy War"? From what I have seen in their writings that have been displayed in the news I think they are in an endless war against change.

[wmw999 2,149]

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1) They want us out of their country.
2) The only reason we're there at this point is to bring security.
3) As long as they continue to massacre the populace, there isn't security.

So all they have to do is what we want them to, and we've been so polite and convincing, too.
Step away from the keyboard, Wendy...

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Botellines 0]

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And one more difference: when an American abuses an Iraqii, they are brought to trial and justice is done

You have to be kidding... There has been abuses, tortures and murders by american forces against civilians in Guantanamo bay, Abu Grahib and Afghanistan, yet only a handful of soldiers have been brought to trial, and certainly justice has not been done for the charges are ludicrous.
They shoul root in jail, but i think that the most severe sentence was, i think, 6 month in jail.

[JohnRich 4]

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The liberation of France and Western Europe in 1944/1945 had as much to do with defeating Nazism (which was already well on the way) as it had with making sure that the spere of influence of the US and its allies would prevail over the Soviet Union.

That's not a "profit" motive. It had to do with self defense and balance of power. You should not confuse security with profit.

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Don't you remember all the stuff about "weapons of mass destruction"?

Yes I do. Not there to be found. Was it possibly an "excuse" to justify an action motivated by other "things"?

Well, if you and Darius think the Iraqii war was started on a false WMD pretense just to make Halliburton executives wealthy, then you're both nuts.

[JohnRich 4]

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1) They want us out of their country.
2) The only reason we're there at this point is to bring security.
3) As long as they continue to massacre the populace, there isn't security.

So all they have to do is what we want them to, and we've been so polite and convincing, too.
Step away from the keyboard, Wendy...

It doesn't seem like asking a lot to me, to have them quit massacreing their own citizens long enough for a semblance of civility, so that American troops can pack up and go home.

Then they can go back to murdering each other all they want.