Are you really more "free" if you live in the US?

[Newbie 0]

I really don't know. I have lived most of my almost-30 years in London, have travelled pretty extensively in Europe but have also spent several years living in the US, and travelled to both coasts, Texas and Arizona in my time there.

What i seem to get from people who live there, at least from this board, (particuarly pro-gun people for some reason) is that, because i'm living in Europe, i'm living in some sort of gestapo-policed socialist nightmare, with no personal freedom, no freedom of speech, having to be supported by government and being moley coddled in a nanny state, without the support of which, i would wither and die. To be perfectly frank, and i will admit that i have only spent very LIMITED time in the US (i would estimate 2+ years tops, most of which was in California), America seems to have far more curtailments on "freedoms". Allow me to throw out a few thoughts if you will...


You can't even smoke in many public places in some major metropolitan cities. You can get sued left right and centre for the smallest of things. Most police seem somewhat draconian to the smallest of offences, like having a few grams of marijuana on you, whereas here, most notably in the Netherlands, but even now in the UK, law enforcement and law makers alike recognise it would be far better use of resources to have those committing serious crimes and using hard drugs to be the focus of police attention, than some stoner who just wants to get high off of a dime bag, eat bags of chips n dip, and watch cartoons. We see more nudity on regular TV, even in commercials, which - aside from pay per view or cable - you guys just can't get there. There is national outcry when Janet Jackson has (part of) her breast exposed on national TV there, whereas the Europeans turn round, laugh, and complain she didn't expose her "puppy nose" fully, and that stupid star got in the way, so it only half counts and was therefore somewhat disappointing. Up until several years ago, it was even perfectly legal here to own and shoot the same guns you guys do. Sure we have seen some knee jerk reactions to gun control, but many other European countries still allow you to shoot and go hunting. Switzerland even makes it compulsary for most able bodied civilian men of military age to keep a full auto military assault rifle at home in case of a threat to national security. Norway also has relatively high gun ownership numbers and in fact, you can still shoot in the UK - it might be small bore weapons, or with shotguns (at clay pigeons, rabbit hunting, lamping for foxes (with high powered rifles) or pheasant shooting etc) but if you want, you can still go and blast away at things. Sure we can't carry guns, but then i don't think we really feel threatened enough to do so, and i live and work in one of the most deprived boroughs of London, where there is gun crime, but it's more against gang members than anything else. Besides, how many states allow people to to have CCW permits? Not many from what i can gather.

What about gay rights? Netherlands and Belgium allow for same sex marriages, and Germany, France, Norway, Denmark and Sweden at least recognise in law, long standing same sex partnerships. The debate on whether this is "moralistic" or not is neither here nor there - essentially if you are gay, you seem to have more "freedom" in Europe than the US as it stands now. I mean, up until the Supreme Court decided in Lawrence VS Texas in 2003, some parts of the US had non commercial, consensual same sexual relations as an incarcerable crime. We had those laws changed back in 1967. I'm not gay, but, if you think about it, gay people in Europe seem to have more freedom, and that's what my post is referring to - personal freedoms.

I also can clog my arteries with whatever junk you guys do. Last weekend i went and had some great bbq ribs, dripping in hickory sauce, with some none too healthy 'slaw and potato stuffed to the brim with artery clogging sour cream, washed down with a (non lite, because no where really sells those) cold and frosty Samuel Adams.

I can also clog my lungs with all the fine Cuban cigar smoke i like. I like how Denis Leary sings about having his feet up on the table and smoking a Cuban, but if you actually read this from the US Customs and Border Patrol website:

"The revival of interest in cigars and cigar smoking underscores the need to remind the public of the prohibitions that have been in place for many years with respect to cigars of Cuban origin. The number of attempted importations of Cuban cigars into the United States is rising and because dealing in such cigars may lead to Treasury enforcement actions, the public should be aware of - and make every effort to observe - the prohibitions which are in effect.

There is a total ban on the importation into the United States of Cuban-origin cigars and other Cuban-origin tobacco products."

it makes me realise that, even though Cuba is a mere stones throw from your guys, you can't even sample one of the finest exports it produces (at least not legally).

And what is it with gambling there. For years i have assumed (perhaps wrongly, please correct me on this) that betting - even if consensual, with your friends, and not for profit, in the privacy of your own home, on a card game, is illegal. Is that right? Here we can walk into a betting shop (and trust me, you are never far from one of those things) walk to the counter and put a bet on anything you so wish, be it what a football score will be, or the likelihood of you seeing and gathering proof that evening that alien life exists. It's all there on the street out in the open for us, not tucked away in Vegas or an Indian Reservation.


We drive the same cars you do. Just recently i have seen a Ford F350 on the way to work, a Dodge Viper driving about in the countryside, and a new Cadillac XLR in a showroom here. Quite how people can afford to put gas in those things and run them is another story, but people have a lot of money here, as they do there, and - surprisngly perhaps to some - made out of a capitalist, free market system, like what you guys have there. We can load up the car/truck and take a road trip, go to the mountains (or hills), see the freedom that nature offers, fish, camp and do the all American "at one with nature" thing that many people stateside see as something akin to something you can only do in the US. People do this all the time - even in really really bad weather, which is lost on me, but in the summer, it's great fun.
We are tree hugging environmentalists though right? But in California you are subject to stringent vehicle smog testing, more so than you are here. In New York, you are subject to strict burning of fuel environmental laws. You guys lead the way with alternative fuel development - i saw more hybrid and electic powered cars in a couple of months in California than i have done in my entire life time in this country (i think i have seen one hybrid car here).

But we have a monarchy, so we must lay down our lives for an antiquated aristocratic system right? To me, the Queen and her lot are good for one thing - it encourages tourists to come and spend their money here, and boosts the economy. I used to wonder why we have them, what the point in them was in this day and age, but without them, we lose the valuable contribution that the tourist contribution provides to the economy.

We don't have freedom of speech? On any given sunday, you can come and meet me in Hyde Park (the largest park in London) and come to the REAL Speakers Corner - the name given to the corner at the north east end of Hyde Park where, if you are a muslim fanatic, fundamentalist Christian rightwinger, neo nazi or tree hugger, you can stand on a box, talk about whatever the heck you want, without fear of retribution whatsoever from the authorities. Londoners pride itself on Speakers Corner and the freedoms of speech we enjoy.

So yeah, in closing to this fairly generalised post of mine, i would like to say to those of you who think Europe is like some kind of nanny state, where we all are on welfare support and without our govt to guide us (which by the way, record numbers of voters are completely disillusioned by - and that's politicians in general, not any one party in particular) we would all run around like headless chickens, please tell me how and why these views are formulated as i'm genuinely curious. As i said, sure i havent lived too long in the US, but i'm keen to try to understand why some people view living in Europe as equating to a lack of civil liberties. As uncommon a thing as it is to hear in SC, I WANT TO BE EDUCATED!

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[gordy 0]

Very well written, waiting eagerly for the responses, which I am sure there will be several of!

[TomAiello 25]

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What i seem to get from people who live there, at least from this board, (particuarly pro-gun people for some reason) is that...

Dude, I'm a pro-gun person who lives in the US, and I've got no idea where you're getting that.

I will say that on an economic level (i.e. overall taxes) I think the States average a bit "freer" (i.e. lower taxes) than the E.U. This is also true, on average, for private right to own firearms. But for me, anyway, the E.U. scores higher (i.e. "freer") on average in drug laws, sex laws and most other "victimless crime" type things (notably, for me, including BASE jumping).

Now if we could just get y'all to speak English properly. I dunno why you call it England when you can't even speak English...

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Tonto 1]

I think 100 years ago, people in the US were free.

These days, no way. Not even close, by comparison to me here in Africa anyway.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Newbie 0]

LOL @ "y'all" being used in the same sentence at trying to get us to talk "proper"

Yeah, the pro-gun thing was a generalisation - but i didn't say it's exclusive to pro-gunners to have this view, but it seems to predominate the threads of those that are (from time to time anyway).

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[DZJ 0]

Very cool post.

[mr2mk1g 10]

The pro gun rights link arises because suggesting that the US enjoys more freedoms than the rest of the world would support the argument that those countries who have no wish to arm their society have less rights in general, alluding to either the slippery slope argument or that those countries should not be seen as examples for the US by way of their un-American way of curtailing their citizens freedoms.

In essence, my feeling is that "pro-gunners" don’t truly believe that the US enjoys universally more freedoms than the rest of the world – I don't think they're that stupid and give them far more credit. Rather I feel that they simply proffer the concept as it supports their ideology without any real faith in its voracity. They may therefore often be seen as the most vocal supporters of the misconception, although I doubt the belief is truly held.

Whilst I fully disagree with the argument, I have difficulty in attacking the strategy itself, as it is essentially what I do for a living.

[Newbie 0]

Interesting points, which i hadn't really though of, thanks for the food for thought.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[lawrocket 3]

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In essence, my feeling is that "pro-gunners" don’t truly believe that the US enjoys universally more freedoms than the rest of the world – I don't think they're that stupid and give them far more credit.

You are correct. I'll ask you - would anyone fight so hard to protect a right if they didn't see other rights and freedoms being taken away? No. IT's a simple "foreseeability" issue. If there was no history of trashing of rights and freedoms, there would be no pro-gun movement, since it wouldn't be foreseeable that these rights could ever be taken.

We pro-gunners know that "rights" in America have been under steady government assault for 200 years. Pro-gunners typically share some main thoughts:
1) I'm responsible for my own safety and protection;
2) The government is NOT to be counted on for my safety and protection

The "pro-gun movement" has these thoughts at the core:
1) The Constitution guarantees the freedom to bear arms;
2) The governments want to take that freedom;
3) Countless other freedoms have been taken away;
4) We won't let the US, state and local governments do with guns what they have done with countless other freedoms; and
5) While not imminent or even foreseeable for generations, armed uprising against a despotic government may be necessary in the future, and the ownership of guns makes that possible, and the right needs to be protected for future generations.

Pro-gunners, as a whole, know that rights are trampled on regularly by the governments! Freedoms are stripped away piece by piece.

If we could trust the government to protect our rights, we would. But history has shown that we cannot. Therefore, it is up to us to protect what freedoms we still have.'

Trust me - pro-gunners have a far greater concept of the withering away of America's freedoms that anti-gunners or foreigners. That's why we are so adamant about not losing this one. We've lost so many freedoms in the name of social engineering (think about the irreconcilable tension between "social engineering" and "freedom.") that we'll fight for one right that citizens can use to enforce the written protections that government takes.


p.s. Not even the ACLU can be trusted to lobby against prior restraints of free speech anymore...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[mr2mk1g 10]

I said that the pro gun lobby doesn't honestly believe that the US enjoys universally more freedoms than the rest of the world. You have said I am incorrect.

I truly hope that statement is in fact correct because the cold facts are that the US does not enjoy universally more freedoms than the rest of the world. Several examples are cited above... hell I'm free to receive oral sex here if I like, without any fear of prosecution. Does the same hold true for all of the US?

If they do actually believe the fallacy that the US enjoys universally more freedoms than the rest of the world, my estimation of them as a group would fall significantly.

As to your arguments with regard to gun ownership freedoms I am not sure to what end they are made. This thread is not about whether or not the US enjoys more freedoms in relation to the ownership of firearms - without a doubt they do - but about freedoms in general.

If the firearms lobby is worried about the further loss of freedoms within the US and can point to the previous loss of freedoms and trampling of others, how can they also honestly believe the US enjoys universally more freedoms than the rest of the world?

That belief must be dishonestly held and simply put as it supports the overall goals of the gun rights lobby. I can see no other reason for the dichotomy beyond shear stupidity – stupidity I do not believe the group possesses.

[lawrocket 3]

I inadvertently put an "in" before correct. You are right. I KNOW the gun lobby thinks we aren't as free. Your point is astute.

Nobody could ever legitimately suggest that the US is freer in everything.

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hell I'm free to receive oral sex here if I like, without any fear of prosecution. Does the same hold true for all of the US?

Depends on whether you paid for it with dinner and a movie or with hard cash.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[mr2mk1g 10]

hehe, no worries.

I couldn't quite figure out why you appeared to be uncharacteristically confusing two sides of the argument – the erroneous “in” explains it all.

[Newbie 0]

Ok so if nobody knows better than pro gunners, that Americas freedoms are being eroded, and you are now less free than you as citizens ever were - why do some Americans point to Europe as the govt-controlled, socialist welfare state, lacking in even the most basic personal freedoms that you don't want the US to slide into and become - when we aren't actually really like that anyway? Which is the point of this post in the first instance.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[KevinMcGuire 0]

[and travelled to both coasts, Texas and Arizona in my time there.

You went to the beach in Arizona? Where exactly is that?

[SkyDekker 1,141]

lots of sand around....

it would appear though that he is saying that he travelled to both coasts, traveled to Texas and travelled to Arizona.

[Newbie 0]

yes, apologies for the poor grammar there (Tom, what's the name of that thar English teacher you had for me?)

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[KevinMcGuire 0]

Damn, I hoping for some relief from the summers heat

[kallend 1,646]

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You went to the beach in Arizona? Where exactly is that?

There are beaches at many points along the Colorado River.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[GTAVercetti 0]

I thought this was a very good post. I would not say that it is pro-gun people who say all those things about Europe, but I would say that many of the people I PERSONALLY know (from all walks of life) have at least a somewhat similar opinion.

From my time in England, here are some of the things:

1) Most people go to work, pay taxes, pay rent, etc, just like the US and they did not seem to be "oppressed under government"

2) There was just as much, if not MORE, political action and opinion given.

3) I could carry an open can of beer around

4) Commerce is brisk. My friends owned tons of electronics, the latest fashions, and all sorts of cool stuff that they bought with earned, not given, money.

5) The PM actually has to go before parliment and GET YELLED AT on a weekly basis. I think that is a fantastic idea.

During my time there, I found no reason to think that Europe was less free than the US. At a quick glance, it is the same. But on closer inspection, it does appear that England at least has more personal rights to me.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[Skyrad 0]

In the Land of the Free, you have to pay for everything!

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[KevinMcGuire 0]

Quote

Quote

You went to the beach in Arizona? Where exactly is that?

There are beaches at many points along the Colorado River.

No shit sherlock it's just that sweltering heat thing that I was hoping to avoid.

[kallend 1,646]

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You went to the beach in Arizona? Where exactly is that?

There are beaches at many points along the Colorado River.

No shit sherlock it's just that sweltering heat thing that I was hoping to avoid.

Hey, you asked

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

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Ok so if nobody knows better than pro gunners, that Americas freedoms are being eroded

I'm not saying that. I'm offering a side of "pro-gunners" because that was an example used. Others know full well the eroding of freedoms, i.e., smokers, drinkers, drug users, etc.

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why do some Americans point to Europe as the govt-controlled, socialist welfare state, lacking in even the most basic personal freedoms

Because some Americans are ignorant assholes. A lot of them, actually.

But, you gotta admit, there's a lot of socialism and welfare-statism in Europe. France and Germany fight mightily over rationing the gravy train. It should be no surprise that large segments of the American population similarly object to cuts in government "benefits" paid for by others.

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we aren't actually really like that anyway

No, you aren't like you described. But there sure are a lot of differences. In England, I made a point to stay away from any place Americans might be. Just as Europeans look at Americans as overly sensitive about nudity and sex, I personally find Europeans to be overly sensitive about a number of issues, like violence, guns, etc. I made the faux pas of talking about the case in England where the two kids who killed that little boy were being released and talking about some details of the crime. I was told that such talk was offensive.

I look at comparing "freedom" by country is like asking, "Is thay rock as heavy as that line is long?" Too many variables to make a comparison.

Clearly there are cultural differences between what is acceptable. I don't care about that. Comparing the freedom of the US versus the world doesn't matter to me. For the US, I believe we should focus on Constitutional guarantees as opposed to what's going on elsewhere.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Hummusx 0]

Here's an example:

http://news.com.com/2100-1023-275708.html?legacy=cnet

"Publishing material likely to incite racial hatred is already illegal in the United Kingdom under the Public Order Act 1986,"

____________________________________
It’s like selling a million grills all at the same time…with extended warranties. -Hank Hill

[Newbie 0]

This is to do with written material designed to incite hatred, nothing more nothing less - there is nothing to stop you in this country taking to the streets and marching with a bunch of neo nazis and proclaiming you love for Hitler while seig heil'ing your merry way around the streets - as occasionally you will find our British National Party doing.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts